Author Topic: About Fees  (Read 5836 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bytemaster

Delegate registration fees will be much lower, so will witness registration fees.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Permie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
  • BitShares is the mycelium of the financial-earth
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: krimduss
Is this community even ready to accept the reigns of decision making power when the devs are ready to pass it on? Is there a large enough group of dedicated, qualified candidates with integrity to fill the slots (however many there will be)?

Perhaps we should come up with Delegate Oath of Office and Minimum Delegate Requirements  :-\
+5%
JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
BTSDEX.COM

Offline Thom

I realize the specific fees are subject to change, but so far no proposed fee schedule has been published has it?

I think this needs to be done soon, to give the community time to discuss and make plans.

Although the devs will be the first set of self appointed DPoS 2.0 Delegates (which I think is a wise and good decision), until alternatives can be voted in, how can alternatives determine if they even want to vie for the position without knowing what the fees and specific conditions will be? Are there specific account restrictions (naming conventions), KYC (if so why?) and how many Delegate positions should we start out with? What should the registration fee be?

I don't see why the registration fee of a DPoS 2.0 Delegate (capital D) should be anywhere near what it was for pre-graphene delegates (little d). How much (if any) pay should they receive? I agree with BM that nobody should work for free. What is a reasonable amount since the duties of a DPoS 2.0 Delegate are like a Board Of Directors position, not an hourly laborer. What difference does it make if there are many "frivolous" Delegate registrations, they are nothing special until shareholders vote them in. Thus there's little reason for a high Delegate registration fee to discourage them. Who cares, it makes no difference.

Setting a high registration fee limits who can participate as a Delegate candidate and IMO that's not a good precedent.

Is this community even ready to accept the reigns of decision making power when the devs are ready to pass it on? Is there a large enough group of dedicated, qualified candidates with integrity to fill the slots (however many there will be)?

Perhaps we should come up with Delegate Oath of Office and Minimum Delegate Requirements  :-\
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander
i think, the last days most of the time, the community talked about a possibility to charge smal transactions say > 1 bitUSD NOT 0.20 cent but say 0.01 cent, so this is not tackeld at all.

we should consider to make small transactions cheaper and maybe take a "floor" for transactions of 1 cent or so.
In theory users could do things like carve $10 transactions into 10 pieces so they pay $0.10 instead of $0.20, which adds to network cost. For example, a UIA paying lots of $10 dividend distributions to a large group might decide to do this. A scale that reflects this by increasing in steps and maxing out at $0.20 could take away the incentive to split like this. Whether or not that's a worrisome behaviour in practice is hard to know.


The fee would need to be structured like:  "Either X% or $0.yy, whichever is less".  That was you cannot game the fees by splitting one transaction into many.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline monsterer

Why can't fees just be a percentage of the amount sent? That way you can still have microtransactions. Add a lower (and or upper) cap on the bounds of the fee to prevent spam and huge fees, that should cover it.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline puppies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: puppies
My concern is that I don't think we should be giving up on transactions < $100.  I am all for charging as much as the market can bear, I'm just not sure the market can bear this.  Perhaps there are lots of users waiting in the wings that won't mind 20¢ transactions, but I haven't seen them yet.  I'm guessing coding a percentage based fee would be hard/ impossible or would lead to dramatic reductions in efficiency/throughput.  To be honest I would feel much more comfortable with a 10¢ 4¢ fee schedule.  Perhaps without monthly subscriptions at all.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline betax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
    • View Profile
i think bytemasters plan to "hide" fees from user is good!

i would like to see something like this

1. we transfer funds and you need a minium like 0.20 to transfer
2. the reciever will pay the transaction fees is the transfered amount > 0.20 but < 1.01 the network will charge the reciever 0.01 cent and if it is higher 0.20 cent
3. after this chargebacks are in place

that is all what i think will be better then just charge flat 0.20 cent

I second this to start, if later on BitShares become NASDAQ 2 we can then have 2 chains, Stock Market chain and Banking chain which can talk to each other. I understand the issue of spamming the network, but the 0.01 fee could be classified as not being part of the referral system. So we are debating between 0.01 vs 0.04.

Now how do you value in USD a transaction for the transfer of an UIA, do you need to have an USD pair in place to value this micro-transactions?
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Shentist

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1601
    • View Profile
    • metaexchange
  • BitShares: shentist
i think bytemasters plan to "hide" fees from user is good!

i would like to see something like this

1. we transfer funds and you need a minium like 0.20 to transfer
2. the reciever will pay the transaction fees is the transfered amount > 0.20 but < 1.01 the network will charge the reciever 0.01 cent and if it is higher 0.20 cent
3. after this chargebacks are in place

that is all what i think will be better then just charge flat 0.20 cent

Offline Shentist

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1601
    • View Profile
    • metaexchange
  • BitShares: shentist
i think, the last days most of the time, the community talked about a possibility to charge smal transactions say > 1 bitUSD NOT 0.20 cent but say 0.01 cent, so this is not tackeld at all.

we should consider to make small transactions cheaper and maybe take a "floor" for transactions of 1 cent or so.
In theory users could do things like carve $10 transactions into 10 pieces so they pay $0.10 instead of $0.20, which adds to network cost. For example, a UIA paying lots of $10 dividend distributions to a large group might decide to do this. A scale that reflects this by increasing in steps and maxing out at $0.20 could take away the incentive to split like this. Whether or not that's a worrisome behaviour in practice is hard to know.

ok, but it works only till 20 USD so, let some people do it. This "problem" only exists because the fees will be much higher then before. I just think we should not exclude this microtransaction because of this. The network should be fine if the promised 100.000 transactions per second are real.

Offline starspirit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 948
  • Financial markets pro over 20 years
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: starspirit
i think, the last days most of the time, the community talked about a possibility to charge smal transactions say > 1 bitUSD NOT 0.20 cent but say 0.01 cent, so this is not tackeld at all.

we should consider to make small transactions cheaper and maybe take a "floor" for transactions of 1 cent or so.
In theory users could do things like carve $10 transactions into 10 pieces so they pay $0.10 instead of $0.20, which adds to network cost. For example, a UIA paying lots of $10 dividend distributions to a large group might decide to do this. A scale that reflects this by increasing in steps and maxing out at $0.20 could take away the incentive to split like this. Whether or not that's a worrisome behaviour in practice is hard to know.

Offline Shentist

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1601
    • View Profile
    • metaexchange
  • BitShares: shentist
i think, the last days most of the time, the community talked about a possibility to charge smal transactions say > 1 bitUSD NOT 0.20 cent but say 0.01 cent, so this is not tackeld at all.

we should consider to make small transactions cheaper and maybe take a "floor" for transactions of 1 cent or so.

Offline Thom

I saw no fees listed for UIAs:

- fee to create a UIA
- fees to post description info
- fees to create a UIA whitelist
- fees to alter allocation or precision etc.

???

There were these in Bytemaster's list:
      uint32_t asset_create_fee; ///< the cost to register the cheapest asset
      uint32_t asset_update_fee; ///< the cost to modify a registered asset
      uint32_t asset_issue_fee; ///< the cost to modify a registered asset
      uint32_t asset_fund_fee_pool_fee; ///< the cost to add funds to an asset's fee pool


Might be more things that needed to be added?

Thx Ander, I missed those. Looking for UIA I guess. Looks like UIA fees are covered.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline clayop

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2033
    • View Profile
    • Bitshares Korea
  • BitShares: clayop
All of listed fees will be 80% discounted when a user become lifetime member?
Bitshares Korea - http://www.bitshares.kr
Vote for me and see Korean Bitshares community grows
delegate-clayop

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3506
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Ander
I saw no fees listed for UIAs:

- fee to create a UIA
- fees to post description info
- fees to create a UIA whitelist
- fees to alter allocation or precision etc.

???

There were these in Bytemaster's list:
      uint32_t asset_create_fee; ///< the cost to register the cheapest asset
      uint32_t asset_update_fee; ///< the cost to modify a registered asset
      uint32_t asset_issue_fee; ///< the cost to modify a registered asset
      uint32_t asset_fund_fee_pool_fee; ///< the cost to add funds to an asset's fee pool


Might be more things that needed to be added? 
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Thom

I saw no fees listed for UIAs:

- fee to create a UIA
- fees to post description info
- fees to create a UIA whitelist
- fees to alter allocation or precision etc.

???
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html