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Offline NewMine

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Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« on: June 12, 2015, 07:17:05 PM »

It looks like we funded the BitShares team to develop a proprietary toolkit software where all profits from this will not benefit the BTS holder but in fact destroy them?

I also found a post by a concerned person that Bytemaster and team could eventually leave Bitshares to work on their for profit company that is going to compete with Bitshares?

I mean wtf? The whole merger was about getting rid of competition and now the Dev team has gone and started a for profit company using the technology we all paid them to develop "open source"

Please explain or direct me to links. Thanks.

Mainly answer where the time came from to develop this new project as we have been waiting for a stable 1.0 for nearly a year? And were you working on this as people were losing their ass while shorting bitAssets because of the fucked rules in place?

Offline Ander

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Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2015, 07:21:44 PM »
You're so good at coming up with new FUD.  Its like your special skill.
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Offline Method-X

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Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 07:31:37 PM »
  • Dan has stated the developers will not work on any chain competing with BTS.
  • Licensing Graphene allows them to fund development for many years to come.
This news should come as a relief to the market as I believe the low price was a result of future development uncertainty.




Offline Riverhead

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 07:44:40 PM »

I shared your concerns however have setting on the following opinion:

1) People need to eat and pay rent. BTS, and the whole crypto space, is in the toilet. Supporting yourself shelling your BTS stake is untenable.

2) No money = no developers = no BTS

[Wild Ass Guessing]

Cryptonomex, and by extension Graphene, is the result of some external infusion of cash (VC). The VC(s) wanted to fund the project but not give what they're paying for away for free except to BitShares. The Dev team has a lot of vested balance, assets, etc. in BTS as well as likely releasing shares of Cryptonomex on the BTS blockchain. That's some serious skin in the game.

[/Wild Ass Guessing]
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Offline Pheonike

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 07:45:16 PM »
You're so good at coming up with new FUD.  Its like your special skill.

Newmine rap name "FUDmaster Flex".

If you you would take half a second to ask a question verse making an accusation things would be so much simpler.

Offline mike623317

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Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2015, 07:47:12 PM »
That's just shameless misinformation.

.. I think you missed your calling sir. You would do well working for the lame stream media.  :D

Read the announcement / listen to the mumble.

Offline triox

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 08:26:12 PM »
Even though the crypto market cap remains stagnant, everyone in this space is being showered with VC/Bank money. Wall St. is getting heavily involved but not in the way we were originally hoping for. They have no interest in enriching some random nobodies. They want closed solutions that they control.
We shouldn't blame I3 for wanting to get in on the action.

Having said that, I believe we should demand clarification from Cryptonomex whether they intend to honour their relationship with Bitshares community long term.

If tomorrow Goldman Sacs commissions Cryptonomex to build them a full spectrum solution based on the Graphene toolkit, is there a way and intent to benefit the BTS stakeholders in any way?

Offline davidpbrown

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 08:47:21 PM »
[Wild Ass Guessing]
The VC(s)
[/Wild Ass Guessing]

bytemaster suggested in the mumble, it was private individuals, so not exactly VCs in the usual sense of companies.

Perhaps I've had too much beer but I wonder that while newmine is always provocative, he asks an important question. Given what's occurred over at CounterParty, it seems there maybe currently more often closed opportunities than ones which necessarily lend themselves to open answers like BitShares ambition has always been. While those closed interests might take advantage of existing blockchains, there is a risk they will push for distinct options.. it would be nice, if the devs could make obvious their commitment to the existing BitShares blockchain to allay such fears once and for all. Those who are simply opportunist, are not always committed enough to fight to the end.. and realistically, existing fintech may opt for middle step private chains, before adopting more open consensus.. I think that much is unclear atm, which is why BitShares needs a clear focus and communication of capability.

Maintaining consensus, is always about having a clear direction, sense of purpose and commitment., which is why I push for roadmaps and milestones beyond just getting 2.0 launched. Robust solutions, should be able to answer tough questions.

Regardless of whether the answer is somewhere in the fine print of the new website, if the defence to such questions, is more dull anti-FUD "You're so good at coming up with new FUD.  Its like your special skill.", then that's not good enough and there needs to do better answers available in the FAQs.

Perhaps whoever are PR/Marketing can provide simple answers to these questions by referencing what is known already. The change to 2.0 is a lot to take in.. it looks good on the face of it.. having devs make obvious to everyone there intention is to continue support for BTS, would be great. There's no good reason not to encourage any fintech interest to use the existing network.. more the merrier. :drunk: :p
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 08:54:01 PM by davidpbrown »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 09:23:24 PM »
It boils down to this,  BTS holders must pay the cost of maintaining a development team.    When you pay your developers $500 per month they look for other options.   BTS doesn't OWN the developers for life.

Cryptonomex will continue to build and enhance BitShares so long as BitShares is willing to compensate the developers for their work.   

Over the past 4 months the BitShares community has only funded the developers enough to do basic bug fixing on 0.9.x series (and likely not even enough to do that).

So Cryptonomex has offered the BTS community a "no-dilution" solution which is license the code in a restrictive manner so we can profit in other ways.

We are committed to not diluting BTS, but beyond BitShares 2.0 the only work the developers will do for BTS is work that BTS is willing to pay for via worker positions.

We have a lot of skin in the BTS game so we want it to succeed.   This is "tough love".   

We will not launch blockchains except blockchains that implement behaviors or rules or philosophies that BitShares is unable to "hardfork" over to adopt.   If it is possible for BitShares to "hard fork" in a legitimate manner to a new idea, then that will be our preferred solution... assuming BitShares stakeholders are willing to pay the cost of implementing the features requested.

We should note that we are building a business model that depends upon BTS for the foreseeable future.   Our skin is in the game, we lose significant money if BTS dies.  We all share a common interest.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:28:51 PM by bytemaster »
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Offline liondani

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 09:36:22 PM »


If tomorrow Goldman Sacs commissions Cryptonomex to build them a full spectrum solution based on the Graphene toolkit, is there a way and intent to benefit the BTS stakeholders in any way?

I like your question. Waiting for the answer...

PS.  In place of Goldman Sachs put any big Company of course.



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Offline davidpbrown

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 10:01:50 PM »
This is "tough love".   

Tough love on both sides.. the community expects a product that will deliver and not just fleece them dry.

It is a fine balance and obviously different enterprises have tried different models to fund development. Getting investment on the back of a promise of gold tomorrow, is easy and we've seem many variations; some IPO's just float the currency and many others bleed the currency dry, hoping to see a return in time to save all. MSC and XCP have fallen short for perhaps underestimating the timelines and they are not making money for us who invested in them.. maybe they will later. It'll be interesting to see Ethereum play out. Perhaps BitShares has it right but as we saw with Mastercoin, it's easy to burn money.. so, all the more important to spend wisely and frugally. I'm no expert but I wonder build one module that can attract new money from either angels or fintech and then develop others.. I don't know, if BitShares has been too ambitions at times, relative to what it really takes to succeed. Hopefully the next step will be a big fish that understands the potential.. perhaps don't be shy with a good idea and pitch to the Barclays' blockchain accelerate and others.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 10:25:34 PM »


If tomorrow Goldman Sacs commissions Cryptonomex to build them a full spectrum solution based on the Graphene toolkit, is there a way and intent to benefit the BTS stakeholders in any way?

I like your question. Waiting for the answer...

PS.  In place of Goldman Sachs put any big Company of course.

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

GS would spend 3M to build their own tech if BTS devs didn't cooperate with their requests and then they would compete with BTS anyway.  Once this is understood you realize the devs either "take the deal" or "go down with the ship". 

BTS stakeholders must make do what it takes to retain talent, period.
Developers must do what makes the most sense to maximize their income, period.

BTS has been public domain thus far, which means anyone could take the code and the developers have been independent which means they are "free to leave".   

It really comes down to the community continuing to make "staying" the best option available.   This is FREE MARKET cooperation.

If GS wants to enter the market with a ton of money and produce a product that is compatible with our vision, then it would be stupid for BTS developers to not take them up on a job offer.  It would be stupid for both financial and philosophical reasons, namely, freedom supporting blockchain tech going mainstream is the real goal.   
If GS wants to produce a blockchain that is not compatible with BitShares philosophy, then developers should still take them up on it because it would be a DIFFERENT MARKET and they could use the money earned to improve BTS.

Bottom line the only reason for developers to not take them up on it is if they actually think they could compete head to head with GS when all technology is equal. 

Any stakeholders here want to promise not to sell their BTS if GS decided to compete by reimplementing all of our ideas?
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline lil_jay890

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Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 10:50:19 PM »


If tomorrow Goldman Sacs commissions Cryptonomex to build them a full spectrum solution based on the Graphene toolkit, is there a way and intent to benefit the BTS stakeholders in any way?

I like your question. Waiting for the answer...

PS.  In place of Goldman Sachs put any big Company of course.

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

GS would spend 3M to build their own tech if BTS devs didn't cooperate with their requests and then they would compete with BTS anyway.  Once this is understood you realize the devs either "take the deal" or "go down with the ship". 

BTS stakeholders must make do what it takes to retain talent, period.
Developers must do what makes the most sense to maximize their income, period.

BTS has been public domain thus far, which means anyone could take the code and the developers have been independent which means they are "free to leave".   

It really comes down to the community continuing to make "staying" the best option available.   This is FREE MARKET cooperation.

If GS wants to enter the market with a ton of money and produce a product that is compatible with our vision, then it would be stupid for BTS developers to not take them up on a job offer.  It would be stupid for both financial and philosophical reasons, namely, freedom supporting blockchain tech going mainstream is the real goal.   
If GS wants to produce a blockchain that is not compatible with BitShares philosophy, then developers should still take them up on it because it would be a DIFFERENT MARKET and they could use the money earned to improve BTS.

Bottom line the only reason for developers to not take them up on it is if they actually think they could compete head to head with GS when all technology is equal. 

Any stakeholders here want to promise not to sell their BTS if GS decided to compete by reimplementing all of our ideas?

"No matter what we breed we still are made of greed"

Offline hadrian

Re: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 10:54:42 PM »
Any stakeholders here want to promise not to sell their BTS if GS decided to compete by reimplementing all of our ideas?

Yes
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