Author Topic: Cryptonomex? WTF is this?  (Read 43833 times)

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Offline merivercap

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Oh and of course you can use the UIA to represent the shares you sell.
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Offline merivercap

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bytemaster, will the community be able to invest in Cryptonomex directly through a BTS UIA?

It would be great to see Cryptonomex eat the BTS dogfood with something this important.

Additionally, would a sharedrop on the table for BTS, PTS or AGS holders?

We would love that, but there are strict rules in the US about who can invest in a private firm before it goes public.
We are working to find ways to bring fresh money into the ecosystem to help grow the value of the stake you are now HODLing!

In that sense, you already own a part of the combined meatspace/cryptospace enterprise in the only way it is legally possible to do so.

Meanwhile, we are working with our legal partners to make Cryptonomex into a test case for how to legally maximize how a flesh and blood company can project itself into cryptospace.  As we learn with ourselves as the guinea pigs, we will be better positioned to consult with other start-ups on how to follow the trail we are blazing.

And we plan to do it all centered on BitShares.  :)

You guys can do a Reg A+ mini-IPO.  I initially was a bit skeptical about the costs, but you can probably do it on the cheap.  The official requirements should be out in a couple weeks, but it may just require a simplified version of an S-1 and also some regular filings.  Not sure what they are, but maybe instead of quarterly filings they'll just require it twice per year or maybe just annual filings and not require as much detail? 

Anyways the A+ seems more and more viable.  We're heading this route for a Bitshares Wallet startup.
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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

BTS has always been at the mercy of the core devs; especially BM. I don't see how that's changed with them banding together under one company so they make some money. The other alternative would be for them to all get jobs elsewhere and let bts wither on the vine while the community either sells or tries to find new core devs willing to work for next to nothing.

I say when a new chain uses the Graphene toolkit they sharedrop on Cryptonomex. This lifetime entitlement mentality needs to stop.

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Offline Riverhead

BTS has always been at the mercy of the core devs; especially BM. I don't see how that's changed with them banding together under one company so they make some money. The other alternative would be for them to all get jobs elsewhere and let bts wither on the vine while the community either sells or tries to find new core devs willing to work for next to nothing.

Sent from my Timex Sinclair

I don't think that is what he is saying.  I think he is saying it is entirely possible that a situation could arise wherein the devs have no choice but to leave bts.  Am I mistaken on his point? 

As far as the devs deserving acceptable pay...100% agreed.
That is always a risk. People move from job to job all the time. Giving them a hard time about Cryptonomex and suggesting bts holders should get a piece of their action is not a good retention plan :).

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Offline fuzzy

BTS has always been at the mercy of the core devs; especially BM. I don't see how that's changed with them banding together under one company so they make some money. The other alternative would be for them to all get jobs elsewhere and let bts wither on the vine while the community either sells or tries to find new core devs willing to work for next to nothing.

Sent from my Timex Sinclair

I don't think that is what he is saying.  I think he is saying it is entirely possible that a situation could arise wherein the devs have no choice but to leave bts.  Am I mistaken on his point? 

As far as the devs deserving acceptable pay...100% agreed.

Edit--As far as entitlement mentality, I think that there are many people in this community who feel a sense of entitlement, but then there are definitely others who truly care about and work for these projects. It's hard to know where I stand on this...because on one end those who originally joined the cause because they thought that was a promise--which makes sense that they would feel upset about the terms changing.  I also can say that there are many people who have continued buying bts even when they had already lost substantial sums of cash for being in on it early.  But then there is the fact that sometimes the world just isn't fair.  This can be said as much for the devs as those who invested early. 
Regardless, I have to really say that is agree with data when he says that BM and Stan always have the best intentions and try their best for all parties to benefit.  Should be an interesting part of our history to cover regardless!

« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:46:40 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline Riverhead

BTS has always been at the mercy of the core devs; especially BM. I don't see how that's changed with them banding together under one company so they make some money. The other alternative would be for them to all get jobs elsewhere and let bts wither on the vine while the community either sells or tries to find new core devs willing to work for next to nothing.

I say when a new chain uses the Graphene toolkit they sharedrop on Cryptonomex. This lifetime entitlement mentality needs to stop.

Sent from my Timex Sinclair
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:39:00 pm by Riverhead »

Offline fuzzy

This was supposed to be published along with the 2.0 announcement... but due to a desire for perfection it was not published.   I think it is good enough to give you all an idea of how we are thinking and what we are attempting to achieve.    I apologize for any confusion.

Quote
BitShares is first and foremost a protocol based upon a public ledger. Anyone may provide and distribute an alternative implementation of the protocol and use the protocol for any other blockchain. The Graphene Toolkit produced by Cryptonomex, Inc is only one possible implementation of the protocol.

The Graphene Toolkit will be licensed by Cryptonomex, Inc for use with the BitShares (BTS) blockchain. The terms of the license will allow the Graphene Toolkit and any derivatives thereof to be used with the BitShares blockchain without any restrictions. Cryptonomex, Inc retains all rights to the Graphene Toolkit and any derivatives thereof for any other use. The BitShares blockchain is defined as exactly one global ledger. In the event of a hard-fork only one branch may be considered the official BitShares ledger which will be unambiguously decided as the fork with the highest market capitalization.

This means that from the perspective of BitShares, the Graphene Toolkit is fully open source and its use, distribution, and future cannot be dictated by Cryptonomex or any other entity.

All of the devs are committed to making sure that BitShares is free from the control of any company or person.

BTS will be at complete mercy of Cryptonomex, partialy or completely funding the developement of
Graphene, but whenever Cryptonomex will see it more profitable, it can launch any number
of compteting chains and kill or criple BTS ( imagine if tomorrow Cryptonomex gets 50mil funding offer
to launch competing blockchain ). So it is a WIN-WIN for Cryptonomex but very uncertain future for
BTS chain. Who is going to invest in BTS in such circumstances ? 
I'd prefer to invest in Cryptonomex because they hold all the cards now if that would be possible.
BTS owners should have a stake in the IP ownership of the code too.
There should be some social consensus about it. For example there should be a rule that
whenever a private chain is launched based on Graphene, the owners of the private chain should
burn X amout of BTS to get the licensing. For a publicly launched chain, they shoud airdrop
X% amount on BTS shareholders.
Just my few bitshares.

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Is this possible?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:33:32 pm by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline jtme

This was supposed to be published along with the 2.0 announcement... but due to a desire for perfection it was not published.   I think it is good enough to give you all an idea of how we are thinking and what we are attempting to achieve.    I apologize for any confusion.

Quote
BitShares is first and foremost a protocol based upon a public ledger. Anyone may provide and distribute an alternative implementation of the protocol and use the protocol for any other blockchain. The Graphene Toolkit produced by Cryptonomex, Inc is only one possible implementation of the protocol.

The Graphene Toolkit will be licensed by Cryptonomex, Inc for use with the BitShares (BTS) blockchain. The terms of the license will allow the Graphene Toolkit and any derivatives thereof to be used with the BitShares blockchain without any restrictions. Cryptonomex, Inc retains all rights to the Graphene Toolkit and any derivatives thereof for any other use. The BitShares blockchain is defined as exactly one global ledger. In the event of a hard-fork only one branch may be considered the official BitShares ledger which will be unambiguously decided as the fork with the highest market capitalization.

This means that from the perspective of BitShares, the Graphene Toolkit is fully open source and its use, distribution, and future cannot be dictated by Cryptonomex or any other entity.

All of the devs are committed to making sure that BitShares is free from the control of any company or person.

BTS will be at complete mercy of Cryptonomex, partialy or completely funding the developement of
Graphene, but whenever Cryptonomex will see it more profitable, it can launch any number
of compteting chains and kill or criple BTS ( imagine if tomorrow Cryptonomex gets 50mil funding offer
to launch competing blockchain ). So it is a WIN-WIN for Cryptonomex but very uncertain future for
BTS chain. Who is going to invest in BTS in such circumstances ? 
I'd prefer to invest in Cryptonomex because they hold all the cards now if that would be possible.
BTS owners should have a stake in the IP ownership of the code too.
There should be some social consensus about it. For example there should be a rule that
whenever a private chain is launched based on Graphene, the owners of the private chain should
burn X amout of BTS to get the licensing. For a publicly launched chain, they shoud airdrop
X% amount on BTS shareholders.
Just my few bitshares.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

All this get out of U.S. talk is counterproductive to what they need to accomplish. If they can make it in the U.S. then they can make it anywhere. If there is anyone who has enough gumption and ethical and moral integrity to make it through, it's the Larimers.
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Offline cass

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If Switzerland becomes an option, someone should pm me.

With love from Zurich.

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Maybe there is a way to have a european dependence  on in switzeland ...?
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Offline brainbug

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If Switzerland becomes an option, someone should pm me.

With love from Zurich.

Offline fuzzy

Now that you mention it, they should probably GTFO from the US ... and incorporate somewhere else. Like Switzerland.

Some of us have family and kids keeping us here.

The company could be incorporated in Switzerland even if you live in the US .. but these days I do think being an American and/or living in US soil is a big liability on many fronts. In light of recent events it should not be necessary to elaborate.

But yeah, I worry about Cryptonomex being a US company. Among other things, the government there can force you guys not to disclose to us any backdoors they decide to implement, they can lock you all in jail under any pretext, seize laptops and servers on US soil, freely intercept your non-encrypted communications.. plant bugs with near impunity, etc.

BitShares, especially in the 2.0 incarnation (once again, well done.. if the code matches the announcements, it'll be BIG!), is going to majorly piss some old, fat sharks.

Being incorporated in a jurisdiction where frivolous litigation is the rule, a tendency for too much regulation, a clearly established oligarchic system, and to top it off an increasingly totalitarian government with an unhealthy appetite for tax dollars and curbing personal freedom (of which BTS 2.0 with privacy will bring plenty.. you get the picture.

I'm sure glad we've got all those government guys defending our freedom here in the Land of the Free!

LOL...

Sooooooo true. 

And @data understood. Thanks for clarifying man...no disagreements there.  But let's remember that this thread HAS VALUE whether or not we like the premise of it because it is a moment where we can all teach and learn and...come to a final consensus.  I personally feel I can find consensus with most of your points...which I would have never heard had it not been for good ol newmine s doing what all Pyro maniacs like to do...and setting a fire.  Does it keep me from sighing everytime he does it? Nope...but then again I have to grudgingly admit he has does occasionally at least have points worth talking about. 

I see it this way...he brings FUD, we being fans of free speech and critical assessment take a deep breath, dive into the mud and clean it up.  Sometimes it gets heated, but if we do it right, we all end up better off for it...if for no other reason because we have all been trained to deal with that line of FUD slinging in a safe place before we have to deal with it in the outside world.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:15:07 pm by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline robrigo

Now that you mention it, they should probably GTFO from the US ... and incorporate somewhere else. Like Switzerland.

Some of us have family and kids keeping us here.

The company could be incorporated in Switzerland even if you live in the US .. but these days I do think being an American and/or living in US soil is a big liability on many fronts. In light of recent events it should not be necessary to elaborate.

But yeah, I worry about Cryptonomex being a US company. Among other things, the government there can force you guys not to disclose to us any backdoors they decide to implement, they can lock you all in jail under any pretext, seize laptops and servers on US soil, freely intercept your non-encrypted communications.. plant bugs with near impunity, etc.

BitShares, especially in the 2.0 incarnation (once again, well done.. if the code matches the announcements, it'll be BIG!), is going to majorly piss some old, fat sharks.. sharks with millions of dollars and plenty of friends high up.

Being incorporated in a jurisdiction where frivolous litigation is the rule, a tendency for too much regulation, a clearly established oligarchic system, and to top it off an increasingly totalitarian government with an unhealthy appetite for tax dollars and curbing personal freedom (of which BTS 2.0 with privacy will bring plenty).. you get the picture.

They've already started... https://twitter.com/robrig0/status/606674745241837568

I agree that living in the United States seems risky, why else would I be paranoid (I've never been a "worry wort") just from my participation in cryptocurrency projects and statements of belief? As you mentioned, the proof of plans to invade privacy in the spirit of control are laid bare with all of the information whistle-blowers have released.

Luckily, others will always be able to read the open source code on github, to hopefully ensure any potential future back-doors would be blatant and noticed.

It's hard to stand by and watch a large number of people succumb to the delusion that we have choice. Systemic discrimination is all a part of the plan to create "rules" that perpetuates suffering, neglects the common good, and divides and conquers diverse peoples. Hopefully none of us become the next JFK, MLK, or Fred Hampton.

A measure we can take is toward adopting a privacy focused set of end to end encryption and distributed communications tools. Peer-to-peer forums (RetroShare, Aether) end to end encrypted chats (Tox, OpenWhisperSystemsCryptoCat) and peer-to-peer collaboration tools such as Friends (Slack imitator) is a step in the right direction.

Offline yellowecho

I don't understand why anyone would be butt hurt by Cryptononex. As stated, the devastating have substantial skin in the game for BTS so it'd be detrimental for them to do anything counter of their position.  Also, BM has stated in previous proposals that they'd code releases for BTS so they're bullish and acquiring more not less. Further, this approach empowers the BitShares community as they can choose the exact direction of the network on a project by project basis.


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Offline Stan

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Now that you mention it, they should probably GTFO from the US ... and incorporate somewhere else. Like Switzerland.

Some of us have family and kids keeping us here.

The company could be incorporated in Switzerland even if you live in the US .. but these days I do think being an American and/or living in US soil is a big liability on many fronts. In light of recent events it should not be necessary to elaborate.

But yeah, I worry about Cryptonomex being a US company. Among other things, the government there can force you guys not to disclose to us any backdoors they decide to implement, they can lock you all in jail under any pretext, seize laptops and servers on US soil, freely intercept your non-encrypted communications.. plant bugs with near impunity, etc.

BitShares, especially in the 2.0 incarnation (once again, well done.. if the code matches the announcements, it'll be BIG!), is going to majorly piss some old, fat sharks.

Being incorporated in a jurisdiction where frivolous litigation is the rule, a tendency for too much regulation, a clearly established oligarchic system, and to top it off an increasingly totalitarian government with an unhealthy appetite for tax dollars and curbing personal freedom (of which BTS 2.0 with privacy will bring plenty.. you get the picture.

I'm sure glad we've got all those government guys defending our freedom here in the Land of the Free!

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.