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Offline Thom

Freedom is indeed about choice…
« on: June 27, 2015, 04:41:15 PM »

Regarding the welcoming side of your comments I agree. This community needs to be more welcoming and demonstrate people are welcome here. Like it's been said before there is  and should be no regulations in place preventing people and companies from using this technology. It comes down to the individual then to decide if they get involved on a case by case basis.

I have no opinion one way or the other right now concerning banx.

I do however regarding the above. I agree people should be open minded and welcoming to those that align with the principles of financial freedom, non-violence and personal empowerment, in other words the core philosophy BitShares was built to promote. For those that don't share those ideals I say there's the door, go do your thing on some other playground.

Problem is that some in this community don't value those core beliefs as much as others. To further complicate things the platform itself provides tools that facilitate control by regulators and others that don't value those core beliefs or mistakenly believe that a highly regulated segment can coexist with an unregulated, so called "dark" segment.

I have my doubts about that, but hey - this is an experimental platform for technology as well as governance so I'm willing to see it through and to how it plays out. IMO it's a matter of time before the most powerful force, freedom lovers or regulators, become dominant and push the other group out.

So if anyone sees resistance to the foundational core beliefs that led to the invention of blockchain technology in general and BitShares specifically I say you better expect that here and grow a thicker skin. It shouldn't be personal; anyone that is perceived to assail or be contrary to the core principles that BitShares represents should expect some resistance. It's a matter of protecting the values that provide personal and financial freedom, and that benefits everyone that doesn't want to take advantage or exert control over others.

But alas, many don't understand or care about the core principles and are thus willing to accept regulatory interference under the false assumption it will make them safer and more secure. Others may understand the risks, but acquiesce to regulation to gain more widespread acceptance of BitShares, in hopes they can make big profits and come out ahead in a rigged game by doting their "I"s and crossing their "T"s to avoid the regulator's whims and their thirst for power to control others.

Choose the red pill or blue pill, it's up to you. Like Donald L. Kimball wrote in his book, The Choice, Freedom or Slavery, the choice is ours to make. Please choose wisely.

Offline Permie

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2015, 05:10:52 PM »
Regarding the welcoming side of your comments I agree. This community needs to be more welcoming and demonstrate people are welcome here. Like it's been said before there is  and should be no regulations in place preventing people and companies from using this technology. It comes down to the individual then to decide if they get involved on a case by case basis.

I have no opinion one way or the other right now concerning banx.

I do however regarding the above. I agree people should be open minded and welcoming to those that align with the principles of financial freedom, non-violence and personal empowerment, in other words the core philosophy BitShares was built to promote. For those that don't share those ideals I say there's the door, go do your thing on some other playground.

Problem is that some in this community don't value those core beliefs as much as others. To further complicate things the platform itself provides tools that facilitate control by regulators and others that don't value those core beliefs or mistakenly believe that a highly regulated segment can coexist with an unregulated, so called "dark" segment.

I have my doubts about that, but hey - this is an experimental platform for technology as well as governance so I'm willing to see it through and to how it plays out. IMO it's a matter of time before the most powerful force, freedom lovers or regulators, become dominant and push the other group out.

So if anyone sees resistance to the foundational core beliefs that led to the invention of blockchain technology in general and BitShares specifically I say you better expect that here and grow a thicker skin. It shouldn't be personal; anyone that is perceived to assail or be contrary to the core principles that BitShares represents should expect some resistance. It's a matter of protecting the values that provide personal and financial freedom, and that benefits everyone that doesn't want to take advantage or exert control over others.

But alas, many don't understand or care about the core principles and are thus willing to accept regulatory interference under the false assumption it will make them safer and more secure. Others may understand the risks, but acquiesce to regulation to gain more widespread acceptance of BitShares, in hopes they can make big profits and come out ahead in a rigged game by doting their "I"s and crossing their "T"s to avoid the regulator's whims and their thirst for power to control others.

Choose the red pill or blue pill, it's up to you. Like Donald L. Kimball wrote in his book, The Choice, Freedom or Slavery, the choice is ours to make. Please choose wisely.
Hi Thom, I respect your input on this and I think we are largely in agreement.
Could you elaborate as to why you think coexistence is impossible?
Do you have a specific attack-vector in mind that would allow UIA compliance features to eventually spread to MPA's?
Or have you come to appreciate the extreme lengths the state will go to to retain control over others?
I can possibly envision a bts freedom-fork which may be needed to escape harsh measures from state on main-chain bts - but what measures could they be?

The Pirate party in Iceland seems to gave gained mass popularity very quickly, in my view due to the harsh restrictions placed on crypto in 2012. Crypto is still banned as far as I am aware.
Do you doubt the desire or ability of 'the people' to act in a similar way if bts was 'banned'.

I just don't see how they could ban it. Slow it down with slander, yeah - but control over information has been diminishing with the advent of the internet. Can not the same happen for finance?
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Offline Thom

Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015, 12:27:02 AM »
Hi Thom, I respect your input on this and I think we are largely in agreement.
1 -- Could you elaborate as to why you think coexistence is impossible?
2 -- Do you have a specific attack-vector in mind that would allow UIA compliance features to eventually spread to MPA's?
3 -- Or have you come to appreciate the extreme lengths the state will go to to retain control over others?
4 -- I can possibly envision a bts freedom-fork which may be needed to escape harsh measures from state on main-chain bts - but what measures could they be?

5 -- The Pirate party in Iceland seems to gave gained mass popularity very quickly, in my view due to the harsh restrictions placed on crypto in 2012. Crypto is still banned as far as I am aware.
6 -- Do you doubt the desire or ability of 'the people' to act in a similar way if bts was 'banned'.

7 -- I just don't see how they could ban it. Slow it down with slander, yeah - but control over information has been diminishing with the advent of the internet. Can not the same happen for finance?

1 & 3 -- Sure. The two are incompatible and opposite in nature. I do appreciate the lengths the psychopaths and control freaks that put on the cloak of the label known as "government" will go to to retain control b/c I've studied history. It is the later that will drive them to push freedom loving individuals out of the ecosystem by labeling them "cyber-terrorists" and the like, eventually legislating them out of participation if they won't comply with all the tracking requirements that allow government to control, monitor and restrict what you can & can't do.

2 -- Not really, but if history is any indication (and it truly is) you can expect it to be a relatively slow process. They will use the media to adversely label people that don't want to submit, they will also use the people that won't think for themselves and just blindly do what they're told, reporting / spying on "dissidents" (get the slaves to police themselves).

4 -- If this plays out into the hands of the regulators and the masses adopt this platform, and they all conform to the KYC / AML regs, that will indeed put pressure on those that don't want to conform, and if that gets strong enough they would likely flee to where they can find less intrusion into their financial affairs. It might well lead to a fork and alternate chain (which might have to exist far underground if laws are passed against "uncertified / unofficial crypto chains) and the whole thing will start over again as the new chain strives to gain adoption. The cycle will repeat if we can't learn from our mistakes. I hate to be a pessimist but I do see this as a definite possibility. Do you think the Silk Road is really gone? I bet it continues, albeit as yet unknown and gaining more customers every day, like blackmarkets do.

5 -- Don't know enough about Iceland to comment on what the driving forces at play there are. From what I've seen the people there seem much less tolerant of bureaucrats and control freaks, especially the ones in finance like banksters. Quite a bit different attitude in the USA, where the populace has been dumbed down and hand-fed a line of propaganda about money, finance & banking for 100 year or more.

6 -- Yes, I doubt the will of the people here to resist like they apparently do in Iceland. My greatest hope lies in the knowledge it does not take a majority of the population to desire a change for the minority to act to make it happen. That's why many of us are here.

7 --- I don't think they can succeed in banning crypto, but they will try. Power never willingly gives up control, at least not without a struggle. Remember, nothing can stop an idea who's time has come. Is it time yet? Will enough people wake up and be willing to invest in a better way of living than control and violence against their fellow humans? It remains to be seen, and I don't get a nice warm feeling in my gut.

Offline Permie

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 11:48:45 AM »
Hi Thom, I respect your input on this and I think we are largely in agreement.
1 -- Could you elaborate as to why you think coexistence is impossible?
2 -- Do you have a specific attack-vector in mind that would allow UIA compliance features to eventually spread to MPA's?
3 -- Or have you come to appreciate the extreme lengths the state will go to to retain control over others?
4 -- I can possibly envision a bts freedom-fork which may be needed to escape harsh measures from state on main-chain bts - but what measures could they be?

5 -- The Pirate party in Iceland seems to gave gained mass popularity very quickly, in my view due to the harsh restrictions placed on crypto in 2012. Crypto is still banned as far as I am aware.
6 -- Do you doubt the desire or ability of 'the people' to act in a similar way if bts was 'banned'.

7 -- I just don't see how they could ban it. Slow it down with slander, yeah - but control over information has been diminishing with the advent of the internet. Can not the same happen for finance?
1 & 3 -- Sure. The two are incompatible and opposite in nature. I do appreciate the lengths the psychopaths and control freaks that put on the cloak of the label known as "government" will go to to retain control b/c I've studied history. It is the later that will drive them to push freedom loving individuals out of the ecosystem by labeling them "cyber-terrorists" and the like, eventually legislating them out of participation if they won't comply with all the tracking requirements that allow government to control, monitor and restrict what you can & can't do.
I see this too.
But states fall, history also tells us that Empires do not last forever. My hope is that crypto will aid capital flight to more-free countries. The US can no longer control their financial borders. The free market is more profitable to the 99% and I believe that profit breeds profit. One defensible nation with ambition to gain wealth and high standards of living might be all it takes to start the cascade. Nukes and huge armies are also a threat - but if it comes to that we might all be doomed to servitude anyway.

Quote
2 -- Not really, but if history is any indication (and it truly is) you can expect it to be a relatively slow process. They will use the media to adversely label people that don't want to submit, they will also use the people that won't think for themselves and just blindly do what they're told, reporting / spying on "dissidents" (get the slaves to police themselves).

I feel that the internet could also make the difference in not repeating history. Gunpowder made previously suicidal attacks possible.
Although I concede that without critical thinking then no amount of information will help. Sock puppets and false-flag attacks are abound.
Even the 'true' conspiracy people on youtube (the new TV) are puppets. If you've heard of them - they're a liar, IMO. (Russel Brand, what a farce)

Quote
4 -- If this plays out into the hands of the regulators and the masses adopt this platform, and they all conform to the KYC / AML regs, that will indeed put pressure on those that don't want to conform, and if that gets strong enough they would likely flee to where they can find less intrusion into their financial affairs. It might well lead to a fork and alternate chain (which might have to exist far underground if laws are passed against "uncertified / unofficial crypto chains) and the whole thing will start over again as the new chain strives to gain adoption. The cycle will repeat if we can't learn from our mistakes. I hate to be a pessimist but I do see this as a definite possibility. Do you think the Silk Road is really gone? I bet it continues, albeit as yet unknown and gaining more customers every day, like blackmarkets do.
Everybody in the current financial system is already owned.
If crypto makes "cash" safe again, surely this is a major chink in their armour?
Is re-inventing sound money (bitcoin) not a lesson-learned from mistakes?
I know where you're going with all this, and I don't disagree with you but I think part of the solution is believing that the solution exists.
It's much easier to consent and concede if one gives up on hope.

Quote
5 -- Don't know enough about Iceland to comment on what the driving forces at play there are. From what I've seen the people there seem much less tolerant of bureaucrats and control freaks, especially the ones in finance like banksters. Quite a bit different attitude in the USA, where the populace has been dumbed down and hand-fed a line of propaganda about money, finance & banking for 100 year or more.
The US is not the only country in the world and it's people have not truly seen counter-examples to their way of life. I envision one trailblazing entity showing the way to everyone else.
Tyranny survives so long as the people have their bread and circuses.
The 'just in time' food distribution of the US would collapse with just 2 or 3 days of trucking strikes. Necessity is the mother of invention, and a hungry American is likely to be far more thorough in considering their options. How crypto solves this particular issue I'm not certain, but if the root-cause is fiat collapse then crypto would circulate as the black market preferred currency. Look at the US dollar in circulation in Argentina (also a power-hungry state).

Quote
6 -- Yes, I doubt the will of the people here to resist like they apparently do in Iceland. My greatest hope lies in the knowledge it does not take a majority of the population to desire a change for the minority to act to make it happen. That's why many of us are here.
Yes.
This is the beauty I see in Bitcoin. "Noone" cares about it's principles but the greed hype cycles will get it into the hands of every profit-motivated individual.
BitShares needs to do the same for business.
A free market is a profitable market and the only argument we need to win is that there is more money to be had by choosing freedom.

Quote
7 --- I don't think they can succeed in banning crypto, but they will try. Power never willingly gives up control, at least not without a struggle. Remember, nothing can stop an idea who's time has come. Is it time yet? Will enough people wake up and be willing to invest in a better way of living than control and violence against their fellow humans? It remains to be seen, and I don't get a nice warm feeling in my gut.
I believe it's time has come, for some.
The internet now connects previously disparate groups and allows them to build communities and alliances that were impossible before.
These motivated minority groups can form co-operatives unbound by geography and convey messages without fear of physical harm. The last barrier to overcome is relinquishing shame.
The clearnet is owned, and intimate details of personal lives are known. This allows states to blackmail those who care more for themselves than they do for their cause.
I think that is the bottleneck.
Maybe a shameless-campaign of some kind would help. Admired individuals detailing their 'shameful' lives enough times that it becomes obvious that every person is the same and the chance that ones 'faults' are unique are slim to none.

For the sake of argument let's say that I am naive and that doom really is around the corner, what do we do?
Should the compliance features of UIA's be removed?

If Thom was benevolent dictator (although nobody, particularly you I'm sure, would want that to happen), what would be your first actions?
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jakub

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015, 02:49:21 PM »
Thom, you say this:
...or mistakenly believe that a highly regulated segment can coexist with an unregulated, so called "dark" segment.
and then when Permie asks you to back it up with some arguments it turns out you have none.

And then you say this:
For those that don't share those ideals I say there's the door, go do your thing on some other playground.

But maybe this would sound much better:
"Welcome to BTS - Kingdom of Freedom. You can choose whatever you want and that even includes being a slave - if that's what you think is good for you".

Freedom is about being able to choose. People should be able to choose to be KYC/AML compliant (for whatever reasons) or not to be compliant. Luckily their choice doesn't affect yours.
I believe BTS will be much stronger if we can guarantee both attitudes to be able to coexist on the same blockchain.

(I'll stop here as this thread is supposed to be about BANX and we've already managed to hijack it to a completely unrelated topic.)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 02:52:04 PM by jakub »

Offline Permie

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2015, 03:08:08 PM »
Thom, you say this:
...or mistakenly believe that a highly regulated segment can coexist with an unregulated, so called "dark" segment.
and then when Permie asks you to back it up with some arguments it turns out you have none.

And then you say this:
For those that don't share those ideals I say there's the door, go do your thing on some other playground.

But maybe this would sound much better:
"Welcome to BTS - Kingdom of Freedom. You can choose whatever you want and that even includes being a slave - if that's what you think is good for you".

Freedom is about being able to choose. People should be able to choose to be KYC/AML compliant (for whatever reasons) or not to be compliant. Luckily their choice doesn't affect yours.
I believe BTS will be much stronger if we can guarantee both attitudes to be able to coexist on the same blockchain.

(I'll stop here as this thread is supposed to be about BANX and we've already managed to hijack it to a completely unrelated topic.)
+5% for positive rephrasing.
Freedom is indeed about choice

Could we move this to another, more appropriate thread?
I think this is a needed public-conversation
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 03:12:05 PM by Permie »
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Offline Thom

Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2015, 06:44:26 PM »
Thom, you say this:
...or mistakenly believe that a highly regulated segment can coexist with an unregulated, so called "dark" segment.
and then when Permie asks you to back it up with some arguments it turns out you have none.
Well, he just asked me to elaborate, not respond with a lengthy dissertation. As you point out I was already on my way to hijacking the thread so cutting my answer short was appropriate. Now that this discussion has been relocated (good call folks), I can provide a better answer.

My answer was that compliance to regs and choosing not to comply to them are polar opposites and observations of the powerful financial elite lead me to conclude they will not be satisfied to coexist with those that want to maintain control over their financial affairs. I will not offer exhaustive proof of that here, but there are numerous examples of the tactics used by powerful incumbents to increase their power or, work to create and maintain monopolies of control. Not recognizing that fact is what I fear is going on right now, and we are giving them the rope that may hang us.

I recognize this response to the question is inadequate. In my mind there are so many examples of how the powerful elite manipulate and control the mainstream world I can't understand why people fail to see them. Yet, it is necessary upon making an assertion to provide supporting evidence. My skill in the rhetoric leg of The Trivium Method is lacking, at least in a venue like this. Some people write entire books on the machinations of "The Elite", such as G. Edward Griffin's The Creature From Jekyll Island and that still isn't enough to satisfy some skeptics. I will give you one hypothetical example tho, and suggest you buy my book series, The BitShares Saga when it is released, where I will elaborate in detail and provide examples of how diametrically opposed interests in a closed system lead to a domination of one or the other. Ever heard of the sayings, "Good money drives out the bad" or it's opposite, "Bad money drives out good money"?

Plausible Hypothetical
Regulators tell a UIA issuer to confiscate / put on hold or remove someone from a whitelist (basically using the facilities we created for regulators to control participants of the UIA system). Response:
The targeted individual or company tries to protect themselves by moving assets or otherwise hiding them in a "dark side" account or some other ecosystem entirely, and that could be the excuse regulators use to whip up a false flag attack on "such financial terrorists that jeopardize crypto-currency or those that harbor them and give them refuge", like confidential accounts or accounts that employ the privacy measures BM spoke of here.

The primary motivation for inventing blockchain technology was to eliminate the need to trust middle men, and the UIA control measures that have been built into BitShares turn that on it's head and enable them, facilitate them, provide the ability to create middle men, contrary to the principle of a trustless, peer to peer ecosystem that birthed the first blockchain.

And then you say this:
For those that don't share those ideals I say there's the door, go do your thing on some other playground.
That is how I feel about it. Granted, it was a blunt response.

But maybe this would sound much better:
"Welcome to BTS - Kingdom of Freedom. You can choose whatever you want and that even includes being a slave - if that's what you think is good for you".

Freedom is about being able to choose. People should be able to choose to be KYC/AML compliant (for whatever reasons) or not to be compliant. Luckily their choice doesn't affect yours.
I believe BTS will be much stronger if we can guarantee both attitudes to be able to coexist on the same blockchain.

(I'll stop here as this thread is supposed to be about BANX and we've already managed to hijack it to a completely unrelated topic.)

Nice spin, but I fear a less positive outcome than you appear to expect. As soothing as your positive spin is, I feel it will not help people in the long run to avoid the difficult issues that need addressing, and will lead to an ecosystem that will result in even more control over people's finances and corruption than already exists in the mainstream financial world.

Your first sentence, "Kingdom of Freedom" is kindof ironic, b/c I believe that allowing the choice of KYC  / AML is a choice to be a slave. I also believe it will affect me, b/c it gives regulators power they didn't otherwise have here, and they will use it to my detriment whether I participate or not. It will have an indirect, spillover affect. Not right away, but over time. That's how they operate. Look how long it took them to raise taxes from "only on corporations and the wealthy" back in 1913-14 to what they were 50 years later. I'm sure lots of people were OK with it when "income taxes" were first enacted. Now look where we are.

Is that a "slippery slope" fallacy? It would be if I were not talking about historical fact, but since our "leaders" show they repeat this pattern it's not a fallacy but a warning, and I fear it will not be heeded.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 08:38:04 PM by Thom »

Offline Thom

Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2015, 07:33:54 PM »
For the sake of argument let's say that I am naive and that doom really is around the corner, what do we do?
1 - Should the compliance features of UIA's be removed?

If Thom was benevolent dictator (although nobody, particularly you I'm sure, would want that to happen), what would be your first actions?


1 - I believe so, however I believe doing so is contrary to what the majority here want, tho these "features" were implemented without formal shareholder approval. I would have preferred a separate chain to support KYC / AML compliance, leaving BitShares proper to remain pure and true to it's original philosophy and principles, a peer to peer ecosystem built upon a trustless protocol. Had the merger not happened that might have been a logical result. It might even have been possible to fund "BitShares proper" from fees collected in such a KYC-AML chain. Who knows.

2 - Indeed, I would NOT want to be in that position. My answer is I don't have an answer. It's a difficult question. Would I be able to make better decisions than Stan or BM? Possibly, but more likely just different, some better some far worse. I have tremendous respect for Stan / BM / Cryptonomex / I3. I disagree with them on a few things, but I can't say I would do any better overall than they have.

The biggest hurdle they've faced is financing the development effort of the BitShares ecosystem long enough to perfect it. Is it possible to create an ecosystem without compromise to first principles AND gain sufficient adoption so the creation would be self-sustaining? The first attempt failed IMO. I don't think the 2nd attempt is the same animal (divergent principles) and it remains to be seen if it will be self sustaining.

It seems to me to accomplish what BitShares set out to do initially, 1) provide a cost effective alternative to the PoS security model, and 2) provide a consensus mechanism so all shareholders can influence control over the direction of the ecosystem, that shareholder voting would have been one of the earliest features to be implemented and tuned. Here we are now, and that is still not seen as important, tho I really applaud agent86's recent idea and effort to address this. I think you can see what is valued as much by what isn't given attention as you can by what is. DNS is another example I am disappointed with.

I love the innovations; BitShares 2.0 is truly game changing technology. Not sure where it's taking us, into a world of greater empowerment or more restrictions, of more freedom or more slavery.  It will be very interesting to see unfold.

I just want to do whatever I can to further the cause of long term freedom and empower the individual by encouraging personal growth and voluntary interactions without violence, fear and intimidation.

Offline cass

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2015, 08:27:41 PM »
I just want to do whatever I can to further the cause of long term freedom and empower the individual by encouraging personal growth and voluntary interactions without violence, fear and intimidation.

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Offline Stan

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2015, 11:35:13 PM »
I don't think the 2nd attempt is the same animal (divergent principles) and it remains to be seen if it will be self sustaining.

I'd be interested in seeing an analysis of how our principles are divergent...
(as opposed to implementation of 19 lessons learned about how to satisfy our original principles.)



« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 12:23:00 AM by Stan »
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Offline Stan

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 12:17:38 AM »
Is that a "slippery slope" fallacy? It would be if I were not talking about historical fact, but since our "leaders" show they repeat this pattern it's not a fallacy but a warning, and I fear it will not be heeded.

We have one weapon you are not considering:  the ability to adapt!  We can fork and clone and sharedrop.

This is an arms race, with miles to go before we sleep.  (Apologies to Robert Frost.)

We need to consider what stepping stones may be needed to achieve freedom.

Fork to the left:  Provide a chain that banks and government lovers are more comfortable adopting.  Net result is more people get trained in the advantages of crypto.  But would any of us use it?  Really?  Not even to pay your cable bill?

Fork to the right: Provide a chain that has impregnable privacy to the point of total anonymity and ignores the current world order.  But how will value trickle into such a chain?

BitShares 2.0: Run the play right up the middle where left and right can trade with each other.  Government lovers (a pox be upon them) can first learn about crypto, then learn about freedom. 

Keep in mind that voluntary identity is a powerful force for civilization.  Why do you think small towns are more civilized than big cities?  Because reputation is an unbelievably important asset that you city-slickers can only dream about.

"I didn't see that, I only heard
But just to be sociable, I'll take your word" 
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From "Dumbo"
Music and lyrics by Oliver Wallace and Ned Washington

Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 12:23:32 AM by Stan »
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Offline Thom

Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 03:16:30 AM »
Is that a "slippery slope" fallacy? It would be if I were not talking about historical fact, but since our "leaders" show they repeat this pattern it's not a fallacy but a warning, and I fear it will not be heeded.

We have one weapon you are not considering:  the ability to adapt!  We can fork and clone and sharedrop.

This is an arms race, with miles to go before we sleep.  (Apologies to Robert Frost.)

We need to consider what stepping stones may be needed to achieve freedom.

Fork to the left:  Provide a chain that banks and government lovers are more comfortable adopting.  Net result is more people get trained in the advantages of crypto.  But would any of us use it?  Really?  Not even to pay your cable bill?

Fork to the right: Provide a chain that has impregnable privacy to the point of total anonymity and ignores the current world order.  But how will value trickle into such a chain?

BitShares 2.0: Run the play right up the middle where left and right can trade with each other.  Government lovers (a pox be upon them) can first learn about crypto, then learn about freedom. 

Keep in mind that voluntary identity is a powerful force for civilization.  Why do you think small towns are more civilized than big cities?  Because reputation is an unbelievably important asset that you city-slickers can only dream about.

"I didn't see that, I only heard
But just to be sociable, I'll take your word" 
When I See an Elephant Fly
From "Dumbo"
Music and lyrics by Oliver Wallace and Ned Washington

Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name.

I do hope you realize in the quote you used from me above, that the "leaders" I was referring to we're politicians, not you or Dan.

As for an analysis of "divergent principles", I will provide some of that tomorrow. I don't understand what you meant by the sentence in parenthesis after that.

Sometimes I feel like BitShares is a reality TV show with secret alliances and strategies that won't be revealed until after the show is over, but by then it doesn't matter anyway.

Offline Stan

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 03:30:57 AM »
Is that a "slippery slope" fallacy? It would be if I were not talking about historical fact, but since our "leaders" show they repeat this pattern it's not a fallacy but a warning, and I fear it will not be heeded.

We have one weapon you are not considering:  the ability to adapt!  We can fork and clone and sharedrop.

This is an arms race, with miles to go before we sleep.  (Apologies to Robert Frost.)

We need to consider what stepping stones may be needed to achieve freedom.

Fork to the left:  Provide a chain that banks and government lovers are more comfortable adopting.  Net result is more people get trained in the advantages of crypto.  But would any of us use it?  Really?  Not even to pay your cable bill?

Fork to the right: Provide a chain that has impregnable privacy to the point of total anonymity and ignores the current world order.  But how will value trickle into such a chain?

BitShares 2.0: Run the play right up the middle where left and right can trade with each other.  Government lovers (a pox be upon them) can first learn about crypto, then learn about freedom. 

Keep in mind that voluntary identity is a powerful force for civilization.  Why do you think small towns are more civilized than big cities?  Because reputation is an unbelievably important asset that you city-slickers can only dream about.

"I didn't see that, I only heard
But just to be sociable, I'll take your word" 
When I See an Elephant Fly
From "Dumbo"
Music and lyrics by Oliver Wallace and Ned Washington

Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name.

I do hope you realize in the quote you used from me above, that the "leaders" I was referring to we're politicians, not you or Dan.

As for an analysis of "divergent principles", I will provide some of that tomorrow. I don't understand what you meant by the sentence in parenthesis after that.

Sometimes I feel like BitShares is a reality TV show with secret alliances and strategies that won't be revealed until after the show is over, but by then it doesn't matter anyway.

Sure.  No problem.  Just wanted to know in what way some might perceive BitShares 2.0 addressing these 19 lessons learned: https://bitshares.org/blog/2015/06/08/lessons-learned-from-bitshares-0.x/ as somehow a change in fundamental principles.

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 02:54:16 PM »
The issue is power.  It's ok to have the bitshares network support regulatory compliance as long as those using the network have a choice and the principal of choice is unassailable.

What individuals value changes over time depending on experience, incentive, education, propaganda, culture.  Those who understand the need to decentralize the power of money naturally do not want to contaminate Bitshares by incorporating regulatory compliance functionality based on falsehoods and fear.  However, whilst so many minds are captured, whilst the lie of security remains highly pervasive, we may deflect scrutiny and increase network effect in the short term by camouflaging the true power of our constitution by code.  Hundreds of millions of people will soon wake up to the reality that you cannot trust any organisation that grants itself legitimacy through force.  They may take an interest then in the solutions we are building and demand adherence to principals many of us hold dear.   

Offline puppies

Re: Freedom is indeed about choice…
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 08:32:11 PM »
The issue is power.  It's ok to have the bitshares network support regulatory compliance as long as those using the network have a choice and the principal of choice is unassailable.


Exactly.

I don't believe that one is capable (in a logically justifiable sense) of selling their future self into slavery.  Therefore we need to ensure that there is not only a choice right now in the moment, but that this ability to choose is forever retained.
 
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