Dan is doing the right thing .. again!

[NewMine]

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

Wouldnt you only have to pay taxes based on the amount you got when you sold?

It actually depends. If it was gifted, actual payroll or a stock dividend (not cash)?

[starspirit]

Curious, what would be the tax treatment in US for an amount of BTS not paid directly, but only payable at a vesting date, subject to certain conditions (like market cap growth), as I described earlier in this thread? (https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17292.msg220350.html#msg220350)

[Ander]

I suppose that the lesson is that any time you receive $X worth of something as a bonus, you must immediately convert $Y of it to cash, where $Y is what your tax bill is going to be.

If you don't do this you are essentially margin long with $Y worth of borrowed money, with all of the associated risks of being margin long.  Good to know.

Sorry for any Bitshares devs that got burned by this, that sucks.

[Chronos]

Wow, that tax system looks like it was designed to screw people out of all of their money if they work on a startup and it doesn't succeed.  Ridiculous.

I think it's logical, actually. Compare these scenarios:


Scenario 1: Cash salary

1) Get a bonus in cash
2) Use all of it to buy BTS immediately
3) The value of the BTS falls
4) Tax time comes. Earned income: initial value of bonus. Capital loss: any sold BTS with lost value.

Scenario 2: BTS salary

1) Get a bonus in BTS
2) Do nothing with it
3) The value of the BTS falls
4) Tax time comes. Earned income: initial value of bonus. Capital loss: any sold BTS with lost value.


Notice that the outcomes are the same. As soon as a bonus is received in one form, it can immediately be traded for another form. That's why the tax laws are set up this way.

[Ander]

Wow, that tax system looks like it was designed to screw people out of all of their money if they work on a startup and it doesn't succeed.  Ridiculous.

[bytemaster]

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

Wouldnt you only have to pay taxes based on the amount you got when you sold?

No, it was a bonus, not stocks or securities.

If the bonus was paid in tokens (PTS? BTS?) then wouldnt you pay taxes based on the amount you got from selling them?

Or was the bonus in USD.

You pay taxes on the value at the time he received it.  He then had a capital loss which could be used to offset capital gains, if he had any.   

[starspirit]

Individual circumstances are irrelevant - only what all parties have to offer.
Nobody can be held responsible for the stock timing or spending decisions of another person, when that is just bad luck.
Nobody is responsible for the external commitments of another person, beyond that person themselves.
Nobody can be obligated to fulfil past expectations, when they tried their best, and there is a choice in the present.
Nobody can forcibly extract anything from anybody else, including their trust, which must be earned.
Nothing can be achieved without cooperation.
There are disappointments on both sides, but all parties need to learn from the past, and project to the future.

[sschechter]

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

Wouldnt you only have to pay taxes based on the amount you got when you sold?

No, it was a bonus, not stocks or securities.

If the bonus was paid in tokens (PTS? BTS?) then wouldnt you pay taxes based on the amount you got from selling them?

Or was the bonus in USD.

He had to pay the taxes on the amount they were worth at the time they were received as income.  Ain't that a bitch.

[Ander]

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

Wouldnt you only have to pay taxes based on the amount you got when you sold?

No, it was a bonus, not stocks or securities.

If the bonus was paid in tokens (PTS? BTS?) then wouldnt you pay taxes based on the amount you got from selling them?

Or was the bonus in USD.

[valzav]

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

Wouldnt you only have to pay taxes based on the amount you got when you sold?

No, it was a bonus, not stocks or securities.

[Ander]

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

Wouldnt you only have to pay taxes based on the amount you got when you sold? 

[gamey]

Ethereum devs are taking the heat pretty hard too right now. 

They got paid significantly more than the Bitshares devs did by the way. 

The bitch threads on reddit and bitcointalk about ethereum are at least as bad as anything newmine could post about BTS.

While I may come across as negative, I have nothing but respect and goodwill to the developers. Yet I have a lot of issues with how things have been handled with Bitshares. Not only do I wish Bitshares devs to be paid more so they stick around, I also personally wish they were paid something reasonable because I assume they're good guys (as are most legitimate developers/engineers). There is no guarantee this experiment will go anywhere.

150k is a nice salary and Ethereum hasn't delivered. Dan did see that one as I think a few of us did. Their architecture didn't seem reasonable, but I have a problem where I give people too much credit in their abilities. I'd like to read some quality criticisms of Ethereum. Their meetups around here keep being cancelled!! (lool) My assumption is they discovered their whole distributed VM system is cpubound... doh ! I suspect thats worse than being disk IO bound. (which is likely their problem if not cpu-bound)

[valzav]

I do have a question though. I could swear devs were given 50k bonuses at the end of the year. Now I read 36k is all they've been paid. Is that 36k + 50k bonus or what? Is my memory wrong? Not that I care I've just learned to really question the family when they speak. I personally aided in chasing off some critics which I have grown to regret, but there is fair criticism and there is nonsense. Newmines jumps around between the 2.

Here is my personal situation in regard to bonus - it was paid in BTS in December, so as a big BitShares believer I kept all my savings in BTS until I had to pay my taxes in April, so I just said thank you to all other BitShares stakeholders that were dumping while I was holding and sold the bonus to pay my taxes. I have no idea what other 36k Newmine is referring to, since December my compensation was substantially smaller.

Let's get the facts straight.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17292.msg220240.html#msg220240

I said you made, if you are a 100% delegate and Dev, $28K at current BTS prices in BTS pay. 3 million BTS bonus on December 31 which I will count as this years pay as it was originally intended for but dished out for tax reasons I3 could avoid as a Co. Then add the 4277 BTS per day the Dev has been making all year. The 3 million BTS was worth $50K at the time it was dished out at current market prices. Mind you it also dropped down near $10 k in worth for a few months. We/I can only call it out at its current value unless  you a disclose where you sold.

Bytemaster, your boss came up with $36K.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17292.msg220275.html#msg220275

Perhaps there is $8K worth of BTS payments that have not been disclosed to you or me?

Stan never delivered the accounting info as he promised months ago. I find that interesting. Do you?

Newmine,
I'm not following your calculations. 36K bytemaster mentioned is on yearly bases, so 18K for this year is pretty close to real numbers.
50K bonus turned down to 10K right around the time I needed to pay taxes from this bonus, so effectively it turned out into negative amount.

[jakub]

newmine, could you stop please
what you're doing is pathetic
you've made not contribution to this project so if you don't like it just let it go

[NewMine]

I do have a question though. I could swear devs were given 50k bonuses at the end of the year. Now I read 36k is all they've been paid. Is that 36k + 50k bonus or what? Is my memory wrong? Not that I care I've just learned to really question the family when they speak. I personally aided in chasing off some critics which I have grown to regret, but there is fair criticism and there is nonsense. Newmines jumps around between the 2.

Here is my personal situation in regard to bonus - it was paid in BTS in December, so as a big BitShares believer I kept all my savings in BTS until I had to pay my taxes in April, so I just said thank you to all other BitShares stakeholders that were dumping while I was holding and sold the bonus to pay my taxes. I have no idea what other 36k Newmine is referring to, since December my compensation was substantially smaller.

Let's get the facts straight.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17292.msg220240.html#msg220240

I said you made, if you are a 100% delegate and Dev, $28K at current BTS prices in BTS pay. 3 million BTS bonus on December 31 which I will count as this years pay as it was originally intended for but dished out for tax reasons I3 could avoid as a Co. Then add the 4277 BTS per day the Dev has been making all year. The 3 million BTS was worth $50K at the time it was dished out at current market prices. Mind you it also dropped down near $10 k in worth for a few months. We/I can only call it out at its current value unless  you a disclose where you sold.

Bytemaster, your boss came up with $36K.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17292.msg220275.html#msg220275

Perhaps there is $8K worth of BTS payments that have not been disclosed to you or me?

Stan never delivered the accounting info as he promised months ago. I find that interesting. Do you?