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Offline bitcoinsatan

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« on: August 24, 2015, 07:15:53 am »
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 06:05:19 am by bitcoinsatan »

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Votes don't live forever. They are not eternal. They are not god like.

Every time you vote, you can change your vote. Remove them from those you don't support any longer.

BTW.. it makes it difficult to take your post seriously when you call this a "murderous incentive"

Tone it down a little if you want serious feedback/following of what you are trying to say.. which I interpreted as, to have votes expire. So if you vote once, unless you vote again in X amount of time, it will expire your vote support.

Frankly.. I think this is a bad idea. I am more in favour of an alert in the wallet to remind people to vote and/or update their votes. Forcing their votes to expire is removing their freedom to choose. With an alert/notice the can choose to keep their votes the same and ignore it.. or take action to update them.

To put it in terms like your post... 'This idea is a murderous assault on our rights and freedoms to have our votes counted! If this is done in 2.0 I a NEVER voting!' << see.. nowhere to go when I start making things out like this. :)

Looking forward to everyones input.. if they dare! MOO HA HA! :D
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Offline bulletproof

TL;DR: vote half-life suggestion

Delegate 'votes' are actually more like a measure of reputation (think Stackoverflow) in that cast votes are persistent - so not like votes in the traditional sense of the word. The delegate voting system is currently designed to ensure stability by directing the apathetic to vote for incumbents. Whilst this may have advantages, IMHO this would seem to present the danger that incumbents are likely to attain a near-unassailable position (excepting of course those who exhibit negligent/bad behaviour). This is more of a problem than SO reputation, which of course must be explicitly earned.

If the aim is the create an autocracy - albeit seeded by the 101 or so original gainers of significant 'reputation' - then this is fine. However, it would seem to discourage serious efforts to try and break into the magic 101 circle by newcomers with much to contribute. Currently circa. 220M votes are required and a quick browse of the delegates shows that with a few notable exceptions, the majority have been in place since a 4 or 5 digit block number - are all of these current, active contributors?

My preference would be to assign votes/reputation a half-life - i.e. votes/reputation should decay over time, carrying less weight in proportion to new votes. So while apathy may still lead to new votes, newer votes - for more recently earned good deeds/value-add would carry more weight. I think this system would be more meritocratic. For example:-

  • delegate.alice earned big votes in the past - way above the 101 threshold, but is no longer active (real examples exist). Even if all future votes for delegate.alice ceased, those historic ones ensure Alice remains 'elected' for some time still. However, decaying old votes would shorten this period, thus allowing new earners of reputation for current valued-added contribution to get elected faster.
Hypothesis: Current/more recent contribution should be valued more than historical contributions.

In reality, with a still relatively new venture like Bitshares, the 'inactive incumbent' issue may not become much of a problem, as I expect the majority of delegates are still very active contributors and deserve their positions/earnings. However, as the drive towards meritocratic governance and alignment of reward with contribution value seems to be at the heart of the Bitshares project, I'd be interested in people's views on this. Apologies if this has been previously suggested/discussed/discarded.

P.S.
Should a target delegate annual turnover be desirable (1%, 10%, whatever) this could easily be achieved in a self-regulating way with an algorithm to adjust vote half-life periodically, based upon current turnover rate - akin to POW.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:00:18 pm by bulletproof »
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Offline EstefanTT

After BitShares would had a few successful years, is it possible that the voting process maybe polluted by the everlasting votes of persons enable to change their votes ? Death, lost keys, ...
Is there something plan to remove the voting powers pf these lost accounts ?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:08:39 pm by EstefanTT »
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Offline Akado

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I kind of agree with this. Votes should have a lifespan or they should loose power if not "refreshed" after T amount of time or gain more power if they are refreshed every T amount of time.

The best option between those imo would be to reward those who constantly vote and also making a vote that is Y years/months old would be null (3/4/6 months would be enough I think)
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Offline fav

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it's hard to take your thread serious to be honest.


anyways, I'd say limit the voting time to 12months - makes sense to counter some unpredictable events like lost keys

Offline EstefanTT

It should be a system where someone who took time to make a well thought vote don't have to go back spend time to do it over and over and over every x months. It should be very easy a fast.

I think I might have a good solution to this :

We give a 12 month life time to a vote. In the wallet, next to your vote you'll find a "counter" telling how much days your votes have left.
In the same page you'll also have a "refresh votes" button who gives all your votes a fresh new year of life time.

It wouldn't care when was the last time you vote or refresh your vote. So, when you are using your wallet and it seems to you that it's been a while you don't vote, you go to the voting page and if you are still satisfy by your last vote choices, you just hit the "refresh" button and you are go to go for another year.
You could "refresh" anytime, after 2 days, 364 days or years.

After a year your votes are suspended until you hit the "refresh votes" button (or you make a new vote).

This function would be disable when someone delegate his voting with the proxy voting system.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:58:50 pm by EstefanTT »
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Offline xeroc

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IMHO this would be yet another parameter that can be voted by shareholders ON-CHAIN!!
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Offline bytemaster

IMHO this would be yet another parameter that can be voted by shareholders ON-CHAIN!!

I agree that this is something that should be parameterized. 

Those who are "lazy" should nominate a proxy and those voting by proxy should never have their votes expire unless the proxy stops updating.

This way you can serve those who want it to last forever and those who want it to expire in a manner that ensures that all voting is "pro-active" and that "passive" votes go with the majority of the active votes.
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Offline bytemaster

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

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Votes don't live forever. They are not eternal. They are not god like.

Every time you vote, you can change your vote. Remove them from those you don't support any longer.

BTW.. it makes it difficult to take your post seriously when you call this a "murderous incentive"

Tone it down a little if you want serious feedback/following of what you are trying to say.. which I interpreted as, to have votes expire. So if you vote once, unless you vote again in X amount of time, it will expire your vote support.

Frankly.. I think this is a bad idea. I am more in favour of an alert in the wallet to remind people to vote and/or update their votes. Forcing their votes to expire is removing their freedom to choose. With an alert/notice the can choose to keep their votes the same and ignore it.. or take action to update them.

To put it in terms like your post... 'This idea is a murderous assault on our rights and freedoms to have our votes counted! If this is done in 2.0 I a NEVER voting!' << see.. nowhere to go when I start making things out like this. :)

Looking forward to everyones input.. if they dare! MOO HA HA! :D

I think vote expiration dates are a great idea. If in some instances the vote expiration or decay rate is random them people would have to keep checking and voting but it has to be user friendly, like how people check their email or Facebook.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 03:53:16 pm by luckybit »
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Offline emailtooaj


IMHO this would be yet another parameter that can be voted by shareholders ON-CHAIN!!

I agree that this is something that should be parameterized. 

Those who are "lazy" should nominate a proxy and those voting by proxy should never have their votes expire unless the proxy stops updating.

This way you can serve those who want it to last forever and those who want it to expire in a manner that ensures that all voting is "pro-active" and that "passive" votes go with the majority of the active votes.

I agree with no expire on the proxy front.
Those that are non-proxy IMO should be  voted on a quarterly basis, with a 1 or 2 week reminder that the wallet can signal to the user that their vote is coming due for an update decision. If no action is taken, then either their vote is completely taken off books or quickly degrades over time by like 10-20% per day.
Most companies do quarterly updates/reviews and so should  non-proxy voting.
Or you could go hockey style and do 3 voting periods throughout the year.
Just my 2bts!


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Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode


IMHO this would be yet another parameter that can be voted by shareholders ON-CHAIN!!

I agree that this is something that should be parameterized. 

Those who are "lazy" should nominate a proxy and those voting by proxy should never have their votes expire unless the proxy stops updating.

This way you can serve those who want it to last forever and those who want it to expire in a manner that ensures that all voting is "pro-active" and that "passive" votes go with the majority of the active votes.

I agree with no expire on the proxy front.
Those that are non-proxy IMO should be  voted on a quarterly basis, with a 1 or 2 week reminder that the wallet can signal to the user that their vote is coming due for an update decision. If no action is taken, then either their vote is completely taken off books or quickly degrades over time by like 10-20% per day.
Most companies do quarterly updates/reviews and so should  non-proxy voting.
Or you could go hockey style and do 3 voting periods throughout the year.
Just my 2bts!


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This to me appears to be the best of both worlds for implimentation
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Offline bobmaloney

1 month @ full strength, begin 1 month half-life decay-rate (with decay-rate occurring per block).

The 1 month voting renewal period is more important when you recognize that it will most likely reward the Bitshares platform, in general, by having the higher amount of full strength votes coming from those most active in the community and with the product.

This is part of elegance that places bitshares on a level above the competition.
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Offline bobmaloney

I am imagining a countdown clock in the top left or right corner of the wallet that will stay at 100% until the month ends and will begin to count down during decay to show the voter how much voting power their votes currently command.


QUESTION: Does 2.0 allow for transaction free voting?
                     If not, what would be the fees for voting, updating, etc.?
"The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw."
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