Fee Adjustments

[Empirical1.2]

how many "Shareholders" are complaining? five? six?

Don't forget about this thread... https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19159.60.html

Alt, Empirical1, Liondani, Elmato, R0ach, lzr1900, BTSDac,  wuyanren, delulo? (percentage fees preference), Giant Crab, Sudo, Pal, Noisy,  xiahui135? , luckybit, moon, free, Spartako (Wants 5 BTS for 'small transaction), Saleh.


The only argument that's made sense  to me so far is that we are competing to a degree with centralised exchanges. How many charge to move money? What do they charge?

A lot don't charge for withdrawals or deposits and their fees start at 0.1% often with a small minimum so you would have to be trading >50 000 BTS at a time for us to be cheaper. I think the majority of new traders and new people to BitShares will be moving or trading amounts that are on average lower than this.

[fav]

how many "Shareholders" are complaining? five? six?

[Empirical1.2]

The problem is not lack of recommendations, the problem is lack of users.
lack of users is because of we never have a usable wallet.
now, seems we'll have a usable wallet, but you change the fees to such a high.

I doubt who will use such a High-End service.
I have followed many users who register by openledger, can't find even 1 transaction.

for the guys who wish higher transfer fee, I want ask you, how many transfer fees you will contribute?

Yes it seems a lot of people in Asia, South America, East Europe & Africa won't use BTS. 

I would also be interested in seeing average size of transfers.

I think people used to send and receive lots of small transfers without even thinking about it. Now they might wait and make bigger transfers. So I think BTS may earn less from $0.2  fees, than from $0.05 fees and also get used less and also appeal to less potential customers...

We don't really have a great basis for measuring demand other than feedback from shareholders in countries where the fees may effect demand.

So far we've had feedback from Poland, China, Argentina and Greece that all say the minimum fee is too high. They're also not saying for them personally but in terms of adoption in their market and some like Elmato are very well placed to make that assessment. (Being someone who promotes BTS  to South American customers and has a product, LimeWallet, which would benefit from the referral programme, so would presumably welcome higher fees if he thought they were sellable.)

So far I've seen no shareholders outside of Western economies (US/Western Europe) who may not even be our key demographic and historically haven't been, saying the fee is acceptable.

Let's remember that people in those countries don't have an access to a global payment network that they can use freely. Transfers are cheap only in the national banks / payment networks. And of course the fee will go always higher when payments are made with other than national currency.

Bitshares has several different currencies, it's fast, it has stealth transfers, anybody can open account without any bureaucracy, etc. We should concentrate on the things that make Bitshares valuable and useful and not care so much about lower fees. Customers will always want cheaper stuff, no matter what, so it's usually pointless to ask them if they do want lower fees – of course they want!

Customers don't always want cheaper stuff, because at a point it impacts perceived quality. You do however need to do research to find out what they're willing to pay.

In this case, remember all the people advising for lower fees are shareholders not just customers. If they thought customers would pay high fees they would he happy because BTS income and adoption would go up and their BTS shares would increase in value. They are mostly approaching their fees position from a business perspective.

BM expressed some interest in Liondani's idea though which if implemented could give us some basis for measuring demand.

I don't think Liondani means the LTM membership fee is halved but rather the transfer fees are lower on that day so that they match what LTM members pay for transfers.

EXACTLY!

That would be interesting.

[Musewhale]

It is important to make a profit.
+1 +1 +1

Yes, it's a profit. But I think it's mostly for WORKERs, not for the network. See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19305.0.html

vps, time, energy, room charge, Clothes, Food
WORKERs need a lot of money, We can't hope to let him work for free, That's not sustainable.

Otherwise, they will leave the network, to work for others to earn money
Crypto Currency, is a noble dream, But also had to consider the survival

As for the specific charges, I do not have enough professional advice
But I think it's necessary to be profitable.

[Samupaha]

We don't really have a great basis for measuring demand other than feedback from shareholders in countries where the fees may effect demand.

So far we've had feedback from Poland, China, Argentina and Greece that all say the minimum fee is too high. They're also not saying for them personally but in terms of adoption in their market and some like Elmato are very well placed to make that assessment. (Being someone who promotes BTS  to South American customers and has a product, LimeWallet, which would benefit from the referral programme, so would presumably welcome higher fees if he thought they were sellable.)

So far I've seen no shareholders outside of Western economies (US/Western Europe) who may not even be our key demographic and historically haven't been, saying the fee is acceptable.

Let's remember that people in those countries don't have an access to a global payment network that they can use freely. Transfers are cheap only in the national banks / payment networks. And of course the fee will go always higher when payments are made with other than national currency.

Bitshares has several different currencies, it's fast, it has stealth transfers, anybody can open account without any bureaucracy, etc. We should concentrate on the things that make Bitshares valuable and useful and not care so much about lower fees. Customers will always want cheaper stuff, no matter what, so it's usually pointless to ask them if they do want lower fees – of course they want!

That said, I'm still a little bit skeptical about the fee structure what we have now. It might be too much. But let's try it for a while and see what happens.

[sudo]

so many  0 transaction blocks
3s blocks interval
is that  economical?

[sudo]

No active users   No  futures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sudo]

The problem is not lack of recommendations, the problem is lack of users.
lack of users is because of we never have a usable wallet.
now, seems we'll have a usable wallet, but you change the fees to such a high.

I doubt who will use such a High-End service.
I have followed many users who register by openledger, can't find even 1 transaction.

for the guys who wish higher transfer fee, I want ask you, how many transfer fees you will contribute?

+5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

[alt]

The problem is not lack of recommendations, the problem is lack of users.
lack of users is because of we never have a usable wallet.
now, seems we'll have a usable wallet, but you change the fees to such a high.

I doubt who will use such a High-End service.
I have followed many users who register by openledger, can't find even 1 transaction.

for the guys who wish higher transfer fee, I want ask you, how many transfer fees you will contribute?

[botfund]

It is important to make a profit.
+1 +1 +1

Yes, it's a profit. But I think it's mostly for WORKERs, not for the network. See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19305.0.html

[Musewhale]

if you lower fees in general there's no need for lifetime accounts. no lifetime accounts no marketers. no marketers, have fun with your low fees, you'll never see more users.

Or the administrator of the experience, standing tall, may be Harvard graduate
+1 +1 +1

[Musewhale]

It is important to make a profit.
+1 +1 +1

[tonyk]

how many unique users  bitshares really have?

about 3000...of them the one that matter are... 97

PS
and the number 97 of course includes fuzzy boy with his 14 month old back up wallet, with a metric ton of bitUSD in it, that he could never open in the last 9mos.

[sudo]

how many unique users  bitshares really have?

[bitcrab]

There is also the concept of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

By setting the price low you devalue the service we offer.   Raising the price means we know what we offer provides value.

To state it another way, I am sure Apple could increase market share and user adoption by lowering their prices which have industry leading margins built in.   But by doing so they would be undermining their profitability and their share price would suffer.

I think that to gain investors we must show profitability and lowering fees will not allow us to show that.

do not agree.

to compare BTS(actually here it refers Bitshares system) with luxury goods is not reasonable.

luxury goods is specfic, only the richest people can pay for them, and they buy these goods for showing their rich and taste, so really sometimes the more expensive, the more they like.
but how about BTS? do you also define BTS as luxury goods? if yes I think 90% of current users should leave.

BTS is also different with iPhone.

the margin cost to provide 1 transaction is low, however the margin cost to produce 1 iPhone is high.
one may only need one iPhone, but will pay for coming transactions every day.

Alipay are free for transfer, Paypal charge fee for transfer, Can we then say Paypal provide more valuable service than Alipay?