Author Topic: Proposal for Angelshares Investment in a DAC Trading Platform  (Read 24231 times)

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Offline domsch

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To form an opinion on this it would be interesting to know about when the bitshares p2p exchange will come. It would make sense to combine the fiat/IOU exchange with the p2p exchange if  that is possible?

That is what this idea is all about. A P2P exchange platform in the form of a DAC will be built on top of this. Therefor our ideology of privacy and decentralization is not lost and we can simultaneously work on both models: Fiat is there for reaching the masses, the DAC is there for getting them deeper into the ecosystem and spread our intentions.



For all the other replies: I am going to work something out with an individual investors and will discuss this in detail with Dan how we will proceed once we have the platform launched and how we can use the AGS for a DAC-exchange. I will create a thread seeking help soon, but if anyone wants to join this please send me a private message with what you can help with!

Offline domsch

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"A global direct Fiat-DAC exchange handling all major (more than 3 or 4) fiat currencies is not needed and will not be profitable.
Doing two trades (first your local fiat-BTC exchange, then a global BTC-DAC exchange) is cheaper. Economies of scale for fiat-crypto-exchanges require that there are as few competing exchanges as possible. Trading n fiat currencies directly against m altcoins/DACs requires n•m markets, going through bitcoin requires n+m markets. If 2(n+m)<n•m the narrower spreads of the large exchanges will make trading via the largest crypto-currency (i.e. Bitcoin) cheaper."


One of the reasons why I think that there is still space for another fiat-exchange is because the current platforms are lacking functionality and services. There are "horror-stories" circulating on reddit/bitcointalk daily;  people losing their money on Cryptsy/BTER/Coinbase or how their withdrawal from 6 weeks ago did still not go through.
Personally, I prefer to work with 1 company that solely focuses on one subject (DAC) and pursues to become that best at what they are doing. There are companies like cryptsy that can be used for BTC<->DAC exchange, but personally, I think that their current platform is quite inefficient and does not offer what we intend to do and guarantee to the community.

There are obviously several more fixes that need to be done before mainstream adoption can start. We think that we can work on that and influence other start-ups as well by showing how we can bring this opportunity to the masses with new concepts and ideas.

Competition in every industry is better for the consumers: companies need to be able to compete with other companies (e.g. lower fees, more features, better support) in order to gain a proper market share. The more people that are working on making crypto-currencies easier accessible and reducing the buy-to-receive process, the better for all of us.

Because DAC's (e.g. Bitshares) are inherently different to what Bitcoin intends to do I think that a platform like this will be essential to change the public's perception of 2 different systems. Right now, altcoins mainly rely on the value of Bitcoin and they show now inherent distinction. That's what I want to change for DAC's.

The way the trading platform could function:
  • All DAC's are traded against Fiat. This means that potential investors know exactly the value of which they are investing and they only have to go through 1 process to get to their investment
  • We (the trading platform) created our own coin that is issued and will be used to weigh DAC's. Not really an advocate of this and I think it is inefficient.
  • We will work with current or new alternatives to Bitcoin that try to fix the current problems in an elegant way. This will then be used as the "go-to" coin for DAC's. Longer process until you get to your investment, but I think that this allows the creation of a decentralized and anonymous trading platform to be built on top of ours.

We can use a mix between option 1 and option 3. For projects like Bitshares we can open up a direct Fiat exchange (could be a separate, independent market for visibility and clarity), for projects like Memorycoin we can use existent coins (with monetary value) to value the DAC.

Why are all major commodities traded in USD only?

Here we could argue about the influence of the United States on international institutes and organizations (such as the IMF), their leading economy and their dominance as a standardized world-currency (which was established after the 2nd World War). Basically, the US was the dominant figure in the world as the largest economy after the 2nd World War (compared to the British Empire and the pound sterling during the Imperialism). Because of this the United States and the US Dollar had great influence on markets and USD was used as a kind of "norm" in commodity prices and Forex.

Now we are seeing a shift away from this. Countries like China, which are on par to the US with their GDP, are using their own currency on markets.


Quote from: Markus link=topic=2247.msg2a7485#msg27485 date=1389565640
Why did Cryptsy roll back from having direct markets between all alts to having only BTC-alt-markets?

Because it is a lot easier to value altcoins to something that has a direct monetary value. Bitcoin is exchanged against Fiat, therefor it will be a lot harder (and more inefficient) if Protoshares was traded against Peercoin instead of being valued against Bitcoin which has a clear value ($800 right now). And it would cause a lot of confusion to the market if each coin can be traded against a different set of other coins.

Quote from: Markus link=topic=2247.msg2a7485#msg27485 date=1389565640
Why can Mt. Gox charge 5 % fees for cross-(fiat)-currency trades and get away with it?

They once were the major trading platform that allowed BTC to be bought for USD without much hassle. As more players joined the market and competition for market share started, Mt. Gox had to adapt and lower their fees.

Quote from: Markus link=topic=2247.msg2a7485#msg27485 date=1389565640
Why are there so many BTC-altcoin exchanges but so few doing fiat-altcoin directly?

The entry barrier as a fiat-altcoin exchange is a lot higher than using already provided infrastructure (Bitcoin exchanges) to allow Altcoins to be traded for BTC. As a BTC-Altcoin exchange you do not require any specific licenses (as of now) and you won't even need a bank account or a company to get started.
As a Fiat exchange the list of requirements is much longer: You need a working bank account (preferably in several locations to lower the waiting time for Deposits/Withdrawals), an incorporated company, Licenses, AML (Anti-Money-Laundering) policies and you need to comply with the law. Obviously because of the huge demand of Fiat to Altcoin, the reward for such a company is much higher than an Altcoin-BTC exchange.

Offline santaclause102

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To form an opinion on this it would be interesting to know about when the bitshares p2p exchange will come. It would make sense to combine the fiat/IOU exchange with the p2p exchange if  that is possible?

It might make more sense and less risk to just use Ripple, but having an alternative to Ripple would be ideal.

So with ripple you would need your bank (or whoever holds your IOU) to use ripple too. Right?

Offline luckybit

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To form an opinion on this it would be interesting to know about when the bitshares p2p exchange will come. It would make sense to combine the fiat/IOU exchange with the p2p exchange if  that is possible?

It might make more sense and less risk to just use Ripple, but having an alternative to Ripple would be ideal.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline santaclause102

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To form an opinion on this it would be interesting to know about when the bitshares p2p exchange will come. It would make sense to combine the fiat/IOU exchange with the p2p exchange if  that is possible? 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 12:26:45 am by delulo »

Offline euzora

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fair points. in that case may I request that additional licences and bank accounts are eventually sought in the UK. low fee SEPA transactions don't seem to apply here (and we'll probably leave the EU in 2017 anyway), making things like bitstamp quite expensive for small buyers. cost me an arm and a leg already for some pitiful investments in angelshares...

Offline smiley35

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I'll start with I know almost nothing...but...

wouldn't a model similar to localbitcoins be easier to implement and more pliable to a decentralised structure? it could provide a single platform but with multiple competing escrow services...

just a thought

is not a very efficient method to trade...

Also much more susceptible to fraud.

Offline santaclause102

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I'll start with I know almost nothing...but...

wouldn't a model similar to localbitcoins be easier to implement and more pliable to a decentralised structure? it could provide a single platform but with multiple competing escrow services...

just a thought

is not a very efficient method to trade... 

Offline euzora

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I'll start with I know almost nothing...but...

wouldn't a model similar to localbitcoins be easier to implement and more pliable to a decentralised structure? it could provide a single platform but with multiple competing escrow services...

just a thought

Offline onceuponatime

Domsch,

This seems to be your second proposal to Invictus; this being the first: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1578.0

I personally applaud your spirit and creativity, but if the first proposal was to create an innovative and comprehensive marketing ideology that encompasses many aspects and would probably warrant a complete team to execute, how then one month later are you prepared to launch this much different venture that in essence is about a 180 degree difference in its nature (marketing to legal/regulatory)?

Are you still working on the marketing plan from the link above? Do you have a separate team dedicated to it?

Can you provide any evidence to your success in the areas of marketing and/or legal regulatory compliance?

These are important questions.

Offline bitcoinba

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Domsch,

This seems to be your second proposal to Invictus; this being the first: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1578.0

I personally applaud your spirit and creativity, but if the first proposal was to create an innovative and comprehensive marketing ideology that encompasses many aspects and would probably warrant a complete team to execute, how then one month later are you prepared to launch this much different venture that in essence is about a 180 degree difference in its nature (marketing to legal/regulatory)?

Are you still working on the marketing plan from the link above? Do you have a separate team dedicated to it?

Can you provide any evidence to your success in the areas of marketing and/or legal regulatory compliance?


bitbro

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There is just very little to hold you to your word here.  If I was a VC an you came to me and I gave you start up capital, at least I would know your name and number to come shake the pennies out of you when this doesn't work out.  Sorry for the rough metaphor, but I think it gets the point across.

Also, your just a student who says he has good salesmanship.  Where are your actual business connections and your experience?

Can you provide a better timeline, budget, plan, collateral proposal, etc?


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Offline domsch

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Just to clarify, Is this a proposal to turn our $100k over to you to get a tool that will greatly increase the value and development of the DAC ecosystem that will also make us shareholders?  If so, $100k sounds like a drop in the bucket weighed against the potential of this project.  I'm ready to be all in with my support if Donsche can show us more substantial budgeting and greater evidence that his idea can come to fruition. Also, greater promise than 10% of ownership for AGS might persuade us who perceive this investment as riskier than standard DAC development.

Can anyone counter with a proposal to create a DAC trading platform that is less controversial to us AGS/PTS investors?


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Keep this in mind, for this you do not require a web developer. This requires an entrepreneur that has connections in major metropolis' around the world, someone who can negotiate and work-out deals that will push the company forward. I have that background and additionally I am currently studying psychology (and marketing psychology) and sociology. I know how to influence people and I know how to create emotionally touching stories that help with the promotion of a product. That is the reason why I wanted to start all this.

My proposed investment of $100k was set with the premise that no community member will join us on our mission (usually you always begin with the highest price in an estimate, just not to cause any sudden surprises for investors). If people like donshoe (He is German like me, and from Berlin, where we have one of our lawyer firms) and others join this project the expected price and required investment will obviously decrease.

This may be a risky investment, but the expected return for the entire DAC economy will pay-off. Instead of me proposing potential ROI's offered to the community: What do you guys say, what do you want to get in return for having such a project launched with an AGS investment?

I have already stated several direct (no fees, contests, bounties, DAC Development Fund, premium features) and indirect (educating, marketing and promoting of DAC's, bringing in more investors - which means more money, increase in value etc.) benefits for the AGS investors. But please propose solutions you find more appealing!

bitbro

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Just to clarify, Is this a proposal to turn our $100k over to you to get a tool that will greatly increase the value and development of the DAC ecosystem that will also make us shareholders?  If so, $100k sounds like a drop in the bucket weighed against the potential of this project.  I'm ready to be all in with my support if Donsche can show us more substantial budgeting and greater evidence that his idea can come to fruition. Also, greater promise than 10% of ownership for AGS might persuade us who perceive this investment as riskier than standard DAC development.

Can anyone counter with a proposal to create a DAC trading platform that is less controversial to us AGS/PTS investors?


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Offline Empirical1

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If your VC can fund $7 million as you say, then there is little need for $100K from the AGS fund. 

AGS is supposed to be used to develop DACs.  You have stated a plan to implement a DAC in 18 months, at that time AGS funding may be appropriate. 

Partnering with existing exchanges would probably be far more profitable for AGS holders and then using $100K to fund the development of integration with Open Transactions based exchange integration may be a more compelling and DECENTRALIZED solution.   Also spending $100K for development of cross-chain trading and options trading / coordination systems that work with the block-chain provided hooks may provide more value. 

I really believe that your initial VC funding should get you to a deployed product and our $100K plus-up should be focused merely on integrating advanced features not available on other exchanges.

You have our moral support, but to qualify for AGS funding I think you need to prove your ability to reach the same threshold of other USD/BTC exchanges.  Once there we can begin working with you to take it one step further and give you a competitive edge over the competition.

+1