how about to raise block reward?

[sudo]

shame on clayop

[alt]

can anybody explain why clayop stop publish feed price for 12 days, and still in the witness list?
he even have time to withdraw his payment 8 days ago, but not check the price feed.
and seems sold the free 130K BTS imediately

Code: [Select]

TRANSFER
delegate-clayop sent 130,000 BTS to poloniexwallet
8 days ago
WITHDRAW VESTING BALANCE
delegate-clayop withdrew vesting balance of 134,094 BTS
8 days ago
WITHDRAW VESTING BALANCE
delegate-clayop withdrew vesting balance of 1,281.92893 BTS
8 days ago
PUBLISH FEED
delegate-clayop published feed price of 0.00859566 bitUSD/BTS
12 days ago


[alt]

@alt I have reconfigured my script to publish accurately and timely once again. Respectfully requesting your support.
Best,
Fox

voted, thanks.

[Fox]

@alt I have reconfigured my script to publish accurately and timely once again. Respectfully requesting your support.
Best,
Fox

[alt]

roadscape and delegate-clayop give a much higher feed price.

Code: [Select]

0.03846532 0.04049002 175% 110% xman 2分钟前
0.03834898 0.03873246 175% 110% xeldal 3分钟前
0.03817109 0.04018045 175% 110% datasecuritynode 6分钟前
0.03817109 0.04018045 175% 110% in.abit 7分钟前
0.038566 0.04059579 175% 110% verbaltech2 11分钟前
0.03846607 0.04049085 175% 110% abc123 12分钟前
0.04002791 0.04002791 175% 110% delegate-clayop 15分钟前
0.0385 0.04052632 175% 110% bhuz 15分钟前
0.0384627 0.03884733 175% 110% delegate.freedom 16分钟前
0.03875256 0.04079261 175% 110% delegate.ihashfury 19分钟前
0.03846781 0.04049278 175% 110% rnglab 25分钟前
0.03859566 0.03898162 175% 110% harvey-xts 45分钟前
0.03859371 0.03897964 175% 110% jerryliu 47分钟前
0.03864139 0.03902781 175% 110% delegate.baozi 50分钟前
0.0388623 0.04090768 175% 110% wackou 50分钟前
0.042 0.04421053 175% 110% roadscape 3小时前
0.03904159 0.039432 175% 110% xn-delegate 3小时前
0.03870454 0.03909159 175% 110% witness.yao 4小时前
0.03869559 0.03908255 175% 110% witness.still 4小时前


[alt]

Dear Alt, I've stopped feeding prices on purpose and started to write my own feed script, but its taking me longer so i will fallback to xeroc script with abit patch

Elmato, I am sorry I am  so mean like this, but this is what witness need to do.
all witness need to take care of the feed price, or we'll not have a reasonable MPA, and it will be hard for people to accept it.

[abit]

Dear Alt, I've stopped feeding prices on purpose and started to write my own feed script, but its taking me longer so i will fallback to xeroc script with abit patch

I'm reviewing the patch. I think it has some issues.

[Permie]

Dear Alt, I've stopped feeding prices on purpose and started to write my own feed script, but its taking me longer so i will fallback to xeroc script with abit patch

Is this an acceptable excuse?
Surely you could have been running a back-up script while you developed your own?

[ElMato]

Dear Alt, I've stopped feeding prices on purpose and started to write my own feed script, but its taking me longer so i will fallback to xeroc script with abit patch
 

[alt]

last CNY feed price from xman is one day ago
from fox is two days ago
from public-witness-one is two days ago
from elmato is 11 days agoox

still no feed price from elmato & fox. elmato don't have my support already, and I have remove my support for fox.
price from roadscape is 0.0314, lower much than others about 0.033
it's not only problem about witness, but also the problem about the vote proxy and the share holders.
I wish more share holders can take your responsibility instead of proxy by others.
@Stan I think you are smart enough to check witness's work. as the no.1 will you take some time to help us?

oh, as the NO.1,
you even don't have the ability to vote by yourself, that's really sadly

But I'm wise enough to know that xeroc is smarter than me. 

Donald Trump doesn't fly Air Force One either.

Code: [Select]

0.0334629 0.03522427 175% 110% xman 14秒钟前
0.03375834 0.03553529 175% 110% abc123 9分钟前
0.03375822 0.03553704 175% 110% rnglab 13分钟前
0.03379955 0.03557864 175% 110% public-witness-one 16分钟前
0.03375964 0.03553652 175% 110% datasecuritynode 17分钟前
0.0336 0.0353714 175% 110% bhuz 22分钟前
0.0338089 0.03558832 175% 110% wackou 24分钟前
0.0326 0.03431579 175% 110% delegate.ihashfury 27分钟前
0.0338578 0.03563979 175% 110% verbaltech2 48分钟前
0.03287343 0.03320216 175% 110% xn-delegate 49分钟前
0.03252238 0.03252238 175% 110% delegate-clayop 53分钟前
0.03385834 0.03564041 175% 110% in.abit 1小时前
0.03295587 0.03328542 175% 110% xeldal 1小时前
0.03318888 0.03352077 175% 110% witness.still 4小时前
0.03312741 0.03345868 175% 110% witness.yao 4小时前
0.03309281 0.03342373 175% 110% delegate.baozi 4小时前
0.03309697 0.03342793 175% 110% delegate.freedom 4小时前
0.03311998 0.03345118 175% 110% jerryliu 4小时前
0.0314 0.03305263 175% 110% roadscape 10小时前
0.03270754 0.03303461 175% 110% harvey-xts 12小时前


[Permie]

would you like to explain to your supporter why you react so late?

@ElMato can you check? it seems your feeding price in bitCNY is much higher than the real market price.

It seems that i'm having problems getting prices from btc38/okcoin/huboi

Error fetching book from btc38!
Error fetching ticker from okcoin cn!
Error fetching ticker from huobi!

Thanks for keeping an eye on this kind of thing alt

last CNY feed price from xman is one day ago
from fox is two days ago
from public-witness-one is two days ago
from elmato is 11 days ago

11 days?? Far too long

[alt]

last CNY feed price from xman is one day ago
from fox is two days ago
from public-witness-one is two days ago
from elmato is 11 days ago

[Xeldal]

@Xeldal seems your witness provide obviously lower price for CNY/BTS for long time, can you check that?
I unvoted the witness and will revote when the feeding price be ok.

Should be fixed now.  Thanks.

[bitcrab]

@Xeldal seems your witness provide obviously lower price for CNY/BTS for long time, can you check that?
I unvoted the witness and will revote when the feeding price be ok.

[Yao]

bitCNY 20170307 11:00am（UTC+8）：


Current BTS price:

• btc38.com: 0.0259CNY/BTS
• Poloniex: 0.00000292 B/BTS ≈0.00000292B*$1280*￥6.896/USD=0.0258CNY/BTS
  

SETTLEMENT PRICE – BITCNY/BTS   CER – BITCNY/BTS   MCR   MSSR   PUBLISHER   PUBLISHED
0.02537498   0.02537498   175%   110%   delegate-clayop   44 seconds ago
0.0259   0.02726316   175%   110%   bhuz   44 seconds ago
0.02565747   0.02700878   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   4 minutes ago
0.02570694   0.02596407   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   4 minutes ago
0.0258966   0.02725984   175%   110%   in.abit   6 minutes ago
0.0258966   0.02725971   175%   110%   fox   11 minutes ago
0.0258966   0.02725971   175%   110%   xman   13 minutes ago
0.0258966   0.02725971   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   15 minutes ago
0.0258966   0.02725971   175%   110%   abc123   16 minutes ago
0.0258966   0.02725971   175%   110%   rnglab   20 minutes ago
0.0257013   0.027054   175%   110%   wackou   31 minutes ago
0.0257512   0.02710653   175%   110%   verbaltech2   52 minutes ago
0.026   0.02736842   175%   110%   roadscape   54 minutes ago
0.02569912   0.02595611   175%   110%   jerryliu   1 hour ago
0.02568869   0.02594558   175%   110%   witness.yao   1 hour ago
0.02568308   0.02593991   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   1 hour ago
0.0259142   0.02617332   175%   110%   xn-delegate   1 hour ago
0.02559645   0.02585241   175%   110%   witness.still   1 hour ago
0.02552013   0.02577533   175%   110%   harvey-xts   2 hours ago
0.024846   0.02509446   175%   110%   elmato   3 hours ago
0.024341   0.02458441   175%   110%   xeldal   9 hours ago

[alt]

would you like to explain to your supporter why you react so late?

@ElMato can you check? it seems your feeding price in bitCNY is much higher than the real market price.

It seems that i'm having problems getting prices from btc38/okcoin/huboi

Error fetching book from btc38!
Error fetching ticker from okcoin cn!
Error fetching ticker from huobi!

[ElMato]

@ElMato can you check? it seems your feeding price in bitCNY is much higher than the real market price.

It seems that i'm having problems getting prices from btc38/okcoin/huboi

Error fetching book from btc38!
Error fetching ticker from okcoin cn!
Error fetching ticker from huobi!

[Yao]

Because of unreasonable feed price, witness @ElMato not approved by Proxy: yao now.


bitUSD：

喂价 – BITUSD/BTS   汇率 – BITUSD/BTS   维持保证金比例   强制平仓比例上限   发布人   发布时间
0.00354432   0.00354432   175%   110%   delegate-clayop   1分钟前
0.00356257   0.00359819   175%   110%   jerryliu   2分钟前
0.00349436   0.00367827   175%   110%   in.abit   7分钟前
0.00356528   0.00360093   175%   110%   witness.still   12分钟前
0.0035662   0.00360186   175%   110%   xn-delegate   21分钟前
0.0034786   0.00366172   175%   110%   bhuz   30分钟前
0.0035389   0.00372516   175%   110%   wackou   32分钟前
0.00346558   0.00364798   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   35分钟前
0.00354431   0.00373088   175%   110%   fox   51分钟前
0.00347002   0.00365267   175%   110%   rnglab   51分钟前
0.00346825   0.00365082   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   52分钟前
0.00350679   0.0036914   175%   110%   xman   54分钟前
0.00358092   0.00376939   175%   110%   verbaltech2   55分钟前
0.00352871   0.00371446   175%   110%   roadscape   56分钟前
0.00352926   0.00371502   175%   110%   abc123   58分钟前
0.00358582   0.00362168   175%   110%   witness.yao   1小时前
0.00365685   0.00369342   175%   110%   xeldal   17小时前
0.00391769   0.00395687   175%   110%   elmato   21小时前
0.00358828   0.00362416   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   23小时前
0.00358621   0.00362207   175%   110%   harvey-xts   23小时前
0.00358608   0.00362194   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   23小时前

bitEUR：

喂价 – BITEUR/BTS   汇率 – BITEUR/BTS   维持保证金比例   强制平仓比例上限   发布人   发布时间
0.00332914   0.00350436   175%   110%   verbaltech2   51秒钟前
0.00334939   0.00334939   175%   110%   delegate-clayop   3分钟前
0.00336427   0.00339793   175%   110%   harvey-xts   7分钟前
0.00336914   0.00340283   175%   110%   xn-delegate   23分钟前
0.00328695   0.00346021   175%   110%   bhuz   32分钟前
0.00334346   0.00351943   175%   110%   wackou   33分钟前
0.00326772   0.00343973   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   37分钟前
0.00334011   0.00351597   175%   110%   fox   52分钟前
0.00326953   0.00344169   175%   110%   rnglab   53分钟前
0.00327968   0.00345232   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   54分钟前
0.00331045   0.00348473   175%   110%   in.abit   55分钟前
0.00330968   0.00348394   175%   110%   xman   56分钟前
0.00333177   0.00350716   175%   110%   abc123   1小时前
0.00338753   0.0034214   175%   110%   witness.yao   12小时前
0.00344885   0.00348334   175%   110%   xeldal   18小时前
0.00370241   0.00373944   175%   110%   elmato   21小时前
0.0033794   0.00341319   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   23小时前
0.00337733   0.0034111   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   23小时前
0.00337077   0.00340448   175%   110%   witness.still   23小时前

[bitcrab]

@ElMato can you check? it seems your feeding price in bitCNY is much higher than the real market price.

[alt]

wtf elmato still in witness list
@xeroc @bitcrab you do nothing after raise the block reward?

0.0246984   0.02599832   175%   110%   verbaltech2   3分钟前
0.02454205   0.02454205   175%   110%   delegate-clayop   12分钟前
0.02469839   0.026   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   36分钟前
0.0247   0.026   175%   110%   bhuz   41分钟前
0.0246984   0.02599832   175%   110%   wackou   45分钟前
0.02469839   0.026   175%   110%   xman   46分钟前
0.02469836   0.02599845   175%   110%   in.abit   50分钟前
0.02469836   0.02599845   175%   110%   abc123   50分钟前
0.02469836   0.02599845   175%   110%   rnglab   51分钟前
0.02469836   0.02599845   175%   110%   fox   51分钟前
0.0247928   0.02504073   175%   110%   jerryliu   1小时前
0.02477613   0.02502389   175%   110%   witness.yao   1小时前
0.02474674   0.02499421   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   1小时前
0.0247   0.026   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   2小时前
0.024543   0.02478843   175%   110%   xn-delegate   3小时前
0.0246777   0.02492447   175%   110%   harvey-xts   3小时前
0.02463869   0.02488508   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   4小时前
0.0245667   0.02481237   175%   110%   witness.still   4小时前
0.0246   0.02589474   175%   110%   roadscape   5小时前
0.0262398   0.0265022   175%   110%   elmato   12小时前
0.024341   0.02458441   175%   110%   xeldal   19小时前

[Yao]

Raise reward, witnesses get even more to dump, price hits 100, raise again, witnesses dump more, price hits 50. 

Why dump? witness.yao (@Yao and technical partner @kimziv) pay the server fee with CNY monthly by credit card, then gather BTS to BitShares wallet, as collateral and borrow bitCNY from the BitShares BlockChain then buy BTS.

BTS is too cheap to sell any of them, of course, I also buy low and sell high to collect more BTS.

Maybe we should fire dumping guys?

Or we may need to determine a threshold, anyone who want to be an active witness need a certain amount of BTS(e.g. 1,000,000 BTS or more) as collateral in their own BTS account. Add a piece of code to judge and execute. The workers as well!

[Ander]

Raise reward, witnesses get even more to dump, price hits 100, raise again, witnesses dump more, price hits 50. 

[alt]

alt - fire this guy he isn't following everyone else and doing what I want
alt - you should not be trusted for following everyone else and doing what I want

this is what I said or this is what you thought I have said?

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

the feed price is used for margin call and settle, it's about money for the traders.
you can publish any price you think reasonable, and everybody have a judgement if it's reasonable
you really should not follow my suggest without your thought. if you follow me without your thought, you are untrusted  to be a witness.
and anybody else should vote for you if they think your price is acceptable of course.
but the problem is anybody must choose one between 0.024 and 0.026, not both. or the MPA have no meaning.

Recap
alt - fire this guy he isn't following everyone else and doing what I want
alt - you should not be trusted for following everyone else and doing what I want

[alt]

the feed price is used for margin call and settle, it's about money for the traders.
you can publish any price you think reasonable, and everybody have a judgement if it's reasonable
you really should not follow my suggest without your thought. if you follow me without your thought, you are untrusted  to be a witness.
and anybody else should vote for you if they think your price is acceptable of course.
but the problem is anybody must choose one between 0.024 and 0.026, not both. or the MPA have no meaning.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

currently price
polo: 294 sat/BTS   1196 USDT/BTC
btc38: 0.0248 CNY/BTS
look at the feed price, from 0.0228 to 0.0263
I suggest you fire these witness unless they give the reason and tell us how they will  fix it:
delegate.clayop, datasecuritynode, fox, elmato, witness.still

喂价 – BITCNY/BTS   汇率 – BITCNY/BTS   维持保证金比例   强制平仓比例上限   发布人   发布时间
0.02474438   0.02604675   175%   110%   xman   6分钟前
0.02474406   0.02604662   175%   110%   abc123   8分钟前
0.0228698   0.02407373   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   10分钟前
0.025023   0.02634   175%   110%   verbaltech2   10分钟前
0.02457212   0.02586595   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   22分钟前
0.025023   0.02634   175%   110%   wackou   52分钟前
0.024442   0.02468642   175%   110%   xn-delegate   2小时前
0.0250837   0.02640405   175%   110%   in.abit   2小时前
0.02457916   0.02482495   175%   110%   harvey-xts   2小时前
0.0251   0.02642105   175%   110%   bhuz   2小时前
0.02511595   0.02643786   175%   110%   rnglab   2小时前
0.024341   0.02458441   175%   110%   xeldal   2小时前
0.02460977   0.02485587   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   3小时前
0.02464999   0.02489649   175%   110%   jerryliu   3小时前
0.02465878   0.02490537   175%   110%   witness.yao   3小时前
0.024   0.0252738   175%   110%   roadscape   4小时前
0.024745   0.02499245   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   5小时前
0.02634532   0.02773213   175%   110%   fox   7小时前
0.0262398   0.0265022   175%   110%   elmato   19小时前
0.02620613   0.0264682   175%   110%   witness.still   20小时前

It seems operating with more diverse sources for CNY pricing (ie. more decentralized) doesn't seem to be acceptable if it doesn't meet the approval of what a few people 'think' the price should be.

Original sources:

                    "sources" : ["btc38",
                                 "yunbi",
                                 "huobi", - temp disabled
                                 "btcchina", - temp disabled
                                 "okcoin", - temp disabled
                                 "poloniex",
                                 "bittrex",
                                 "btcavg",
                                 "yahoo",
                                 ]

In order to get a similar higher price to others I had to disable 3 more of these sources.. only leaving 3 to determine the CNY price.

Shame on me for taking a wider price feed average.. indeed.

The real tragedy in all this has actually been that the call was not about getting more sources.. it was about getting a higher price that someone wanted... shame.. indeed.

[alt]

seems somebody is special than others, they can get payment without doing the job.
the problem is not the reward, it's responsibility. shame on you

[Harvey]

BTS seed node : 128.199.143.47:2015
BTS API node : ws://128.199.143.47:2016 
BTS witness : harvey-xts

thanks for your votes~

[callmeluc]

witness.still is updating.
sorry for the delay, work overnight...

[freedom]

我能提供稳定的喂价，希望得到xeroc的支持，sorry my english...
见证人:delegate.freedom
服务器:
阿里云
2核16G
3年
只跑BTS见证人
另外还有1台备用服务器

我来自中国的茄子，我是中国BTS最大的粉丝之一，圈内无人不知。
2013年PTS发布之初就跟随BM，挖过PTS，投了大量AGS。
BTS的很多活动都有曾参与，包括mumber...虽然听不懂
在国内一直是最活跃的份子之一。经常与
bitcarb,alt,abit,ebit,xn-delegate,yao,强哥,白菜,still...
交流BTS经验，促进BTS发展~~~~~~~
.
但是my english...所以一般只活跃在国内。
我能提供稳定准确喂价，希望xero支持。3q

[alt]

currently price
polo: 294 sat/BTS   1196 USDT/BTC
btc38: 0.0248 CNY/BTS
look at the feed price, from 0.0228 to 0.0263
I suggest you fire these witness unless they give the reason and tell us how they will  fix it:
delegate.clayop, datasecuritynode, fox, elmato, witness.still

喂价 – BITCNY/BTS   汇率 – BITCNY/BTS   维持保证金比例   强制平仓比例上限   发布人   发布时间
0.02474438   0.02604675   175%   110%   xman   6分钟前
0.02474406   0.02604662   175%   110%   abc123   8分钟前
0.0228698   0.02407373   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   10分钟前
0.025023   0.02634   175%   110%   verbaltech2   10分钟前
0.02457212   0.02586595   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   22分钟前
0.025023   0.02634   175%   110%   wackou   52分钟前
0.024442   0.02468642   175%   110%   xn-delegate   2小时前
0.0250837   0.02640405   175%   110%   in.abit   2小时前
0.02457916   0.02482495   175%   110%   harvey-xts   2小时前
0.0251   0.02642105   175%   110%   bhuz   2小时前
0.02511595   0.02643786   175%   110%   rnglab   2小时前
0.024341   0.02458441   175%   110%   xeldal   2小时前
0.02460977   0.02485587   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   3小时前
0.02464999   0.02489649   175%   110%   jerryliu   3小时前
0.02465878   0.02490537   175%   110%   witness.yao   3小时前
0.024   0.0252738   175%   110%   roadscape   4小时前
0.024745   0.02499245   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   5小时前
0.02634532   0.02773213   175%   110%   fox   7小时前
0.0262398   0.0265022   175%   110%   elmato   19小时前
0.02620613   0.0264682   175%   110%   witness.still   20小时前

[fav]

the question is who is delegate.btsnow and why do you support him even he  never publish one price feed?

Missed that .. not publishing feeds is a no go .. thanks for letting me know

but you vote for roadscape and delegate-clayop, no price feed from them too.
you vote for datesecuritynode who always publish a price more lower than others, others's feed is 0.0261 CNY/BTS, his is 0.024CNY/BTS now
it's really a question: what's the guideline??

喂价 – BITCNY/BTS   汇率 – BITCNY/BTS   维持保证金比例   强制平仓比例上限   发布人   发布时间
0.02410173   0.02537054   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   1分钟前
0.0261194   0.02749411   175%   110%   rnglab   15分钟前
0.02638632   0.02777535   175%   110%   in.abit   17分钟前
0.02633984   0.02772748   175%   110%   xman   20分钟前
0.02633984   0.02772748   175%   110%   abc123   22分钟前
0.0264   0.02778947   175%   110%   bhuz   24分钟前
0.02633984   0.02772748   175%   110%   fox   26分钟前
0.026085   0.02745789   175%   110%   wackou   28分钟前
0.026   0.02736842   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   29分钟前
0.0260845   0.02745737   175%   110%   verbaltech2   48分钟前
0.02611154   0.02637266   175%   110%   witness.yao   2小时前
0.02610618   0.02636724   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   2小时前
0.02611425   0.02637539   175%   110%   jerryliu   2小时前
0.026058   0.02631858   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   2小时前
0.025957   0.02621657   175%   110%   xn-delegate   6小时前
0.0262398   0.0265022   175%   110%   elmato   7小时前
0.02620277   0.0264648   175%   110%   xeldal   8小时前
0.02620613   0.0264682   175%   110%   witness.still   8小时前
0.02624258   0.026505   175%   110%   harvey-xts   22小时前
0.0265   0.02789474   175%   110%   spartako   22小时前

legitimate questions, but you know what's even more interesting?

how many active witnesses are run by committee members and who of them lobbied for witness pay increase?

this is important, because if nothing happens in terms of quality, there will be responsibilities.

[alt]

the question is who is delegate.btsnow and why do you support him even he  never publish one price feed?

Missed that .. not publishing feeds is a no go .. thanks for letting me know

but you vote for roadscape and delegate-clayop, no price feed from them too.
you vote for datesecuritynode who always publish a price more lower than others, others's feed is 0.0261 CNY/BTS, his is 0.024CNY/BTS now
it's really a question: what's the guideline??

喂价 – BITCNY/BTS   汇率 – BITCNY/BTS   维持保证金比例   强制平仓比例上限   发布人   发布时间
0.02410173   0.02537054   175%   110%   datasecuritynode   1分钟前
0.0261194   0.02749411   175%   110%   rnglab   15分钟前
0.02638632   0.02777535   175%   110%   in.abit   17分钟前
0.02633984   0.02772748   175%   110%   xman   20分钟前
0.02633984   0.02772748   175%   110%   abc123   22分钟前
0.0264   0.02778947   175%   110%   bhuz   24分钟前
0.02633984   0.02772748   175%   110%   fox   26分钟前
0.026085   0.02745789   175%   110%   wackou   28分钟前
0.026   0.02736842   175%   110%   delegate.ihashfury   29分钟前
0.0260845   0.02745737   175%   110%   verbaltech2   48分钟前
0.02611154   0.02637266   175%   110%   witness.yao   2小时前
0.02610618   0.02636724   175%   110%   delegate.baozi   2小时前
0.02611425   0.02637539   175%   110%   jerryliu   2小时前
0.026058   0.02631858   175%   110%   delegate.freedom   2小时前
0.025957   0.02621657   175%   110%   xn-delegate   6小时前
0.0262398   0.0265022   175%   110%   elmato   7小时前
0.02620277   0.0264648   175%   110%   xeldal   8小时前
0.02620613   0.0264682   175%   110%   witness.still   8小时前
0.02624258   0.026505   175%   110%   harvey-xts   22小时前
0.0265   0.02789474   175%   110%   spartako   22小时前

[xeroc]

the question is who is delegate.btsnow and why do you support him even he  never publish one price feed?

Missed that .. not publishing feeds is a no go .. thanks for letting me know

[alt]

you do these for payment,
we need more person do something for business so we can be charged with your payment.

I doubt there are more person who want to join.
I'm very surprised  even business team such as  openledger or blockpay don't interested in these things.
no vote proxy, no community, no witness.

How about chainsquad.com?
we have
* a proxy (me)
* a committee member (me)
* a worker (multisig)
* a bitshares webpage
* a faucet
* plenty of code written for the public
* still no witness .. for a single reason: more conflicting interests.

[alt]

increase  pay more? are you kidding me?
tell me how much pay will delegate.btsnow give the feed price?
and I want to ask xeroc why you vote for this witness but not witness.yao, xn-delegate?

Code: [Select]

Recent activity (export to .csv)
OPERATION INFO
TRANSFER
delegate.btsnow sent 35,999 BTS to btsnow
last year - 42.10936 BTS
CREATE WITNESS
delegate.btsnow was upgraded to become a witness
last year - 5,000 BTS
CLAIM BALANCE
delegate.btsnow claimed a balance of 1.52398 BTS
last year - 0 BTS
CLAIM BALANCE
delegate.btsnow claimed a balance of 41,039.91616 BTS
last year - 0 BTS


I probably just missed him .. have a link where i can find more about him?

the question is who is delegate.btsnow and why do you support him even he  never publish one price feed?
these days you have remove some vote, add some vote, keep some vote, and reject some new witness, what's your guideline?
for example this guy:

Agreed. Price feeds are what makes settlements and margin calls work as intended.
I will take down my votes from lazy witnesses when i am back at the office next year.
I will alao work on a tool that makes it easier for witbesses to provide manual feeds ... but for now, i am on vacation

Witness.yao on standby!
I need your vote, thx.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23628.0.html

[xeroc]

increase  pay more? are you kidding me?
tell me how much pay will delegate.btsnow give the feed price?
and I want to ask xeroc why you vote for this witness but not witness.yao, xn-delegate?

Code: [Select]

Recent activity (export to .csv)
OPERATION INFO
TRANSFER
delegate.btsnow sent 35,999 BTS to btsnow
last year - 42.10936 BTS
CREATE WITNESS
delegate.btsnow was upgraded to become a witness
last year - 5,000 BTS
CLAIM BALANCE
delegate.btsnow claimed a balance of 1.52398 BTS
last year - 0 BTS
CLAIM BALANCE
delegate.btsnow claimed a balance of 41,039.91616 BTS
last year - 0 BTS


I probably just missed him .. have a link where i can find more about him?

[xeroc]

I doubt there are more person who want to join.
I'm very surprised  even business team such as  openledger or blockpay don't interested in these things.
no vote proxy, no community, no witness.

How about chainsquad.com?
we have
* a proxy (me)
* a committee member (me)
* a worker (multisig)
* a bitshares webpage
* a faucet
* plenty of code written for the public
* still no witness .. for a single reason: more conflicting interests.

[Thom]

I am sure now the service will be improved...lol..If nothing changes to the service provided and feeds are wrong again I hope that you guys consider to go back to the 1.5bts and fire some bad witnesses..

 
Line'm up, I'm happy to do the firing.
Where there's a slacker, I can always find 10 others hungry to prove themselves.

No problem with getting rid of deadbeat / low performers, but let's see contender's ability BEFORE they are voted them in.

In other words, don't be too quick to make changes. I'm at Anarchapulco atm, but I will be upgrading all of my nodes when I return. Keeping an eye on them from here.

[alt]

increase  pay more? are you kidding me?
tell me how much pay will delegate.btsnow give the feed price?
and I want to ask xeroc why you vote for this witness but not witness.yao, xn-delegate?

Code: [Select]

Recent activity (export to .csv)
OPERATION INFO
TRANSFER
delegate.btsnow sent 35,999 BTS to btsnow
last year - 42.10936 BTS
CREATE WITNESS
delegate.btsnow was upgraded to become a witness
last year - 5,000 BTS
CLAIM BALANCE
delegate.btsnow claimed a balance of 1.52398 BTS
last year - 0 BTS
CLAIM BALANCE
delegate.btsnow claimed a balance of 41,039.91616 BTS
last year - 0 BTS


[abit]

I doubt there are more person who want to join.
I'm very surprised  even business team such as  openledger or blockpay don't interested in these things.
no vote proxy, no community, no witness.

So, increase the pay more?

The harder you beat current ones, the less new ones will come.

Think about carrots v.s. sticks.

[alt]

I doubt there are more person who want to join.
I'm very surprised  even business team such as  openledger or blockpay don't interested in these things.
no vote proxy, no community, no witness.

[Methodise]

My delegate is in embryo. But she's a beaut.

[abit]

I am sure now the service will be improved...lol..If nothing changes to the service provided and feeds are wrong again I hope that you guys consider to go back to the 1.5bts and fire some bad witnesses..

 
Line'm up, I'm happy to do the firing.
Where there's a slacker, I can always find 10 others hungry to prove themselves.

Better get the 10 others here sooner than later.

[kenCode]

I am sure now the service will be improved...lol..If nothing changes to the service provided and feeds are wrong again I hope that you guys consider to go back to the 1.5bts and fire some bad witnesses..

 
Line'm up, I'm happy to do the firing.
Where there's a slacker, I can always find 10 others hungry to prove themselves.

[mf-tzo]

I am sure now the service will be improved...lol..If nothing changes to the service provided and feeds are wrong again I hope that you guys consider to go back to the 1.5bts and fire some bad witnesses..

[xeroc]

BitShares now pays 3BTS (2x increase from previous 1.5BTS) per created block!
http://steem.link/TfdDV

[Brekyrself]

There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!

Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

I think @Brekyrself was referring to adding additional network-issued MPAs and expecting/requiring witnesses to provide feeds for those assets in order to help justify higher pay. 

I like this idea in theory.  But unfortunately there isn't enough focus on liquidity, so I'm not confident we're making enough progress on that front to expect additional MPAs will ever become viable.

Exactly this, have stocks themselves be the same concept as BitAssets (BitUSD, BitEuro, Etc...).  There has to be a wide variety of proper price feeds all over the internet?

Sure liquidity would hurt short term but this would provide another angle for traders besides Forex.

[xeroc]

There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!

Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

I think @Brekyrself was referring to adding additional network-issued MPAs and expecting/requiring witnesses to provide feeds for those assets in order to help justify higher pay. 

I like this idea in theory.  But unfortunately there isn't enough focus on liquidity, so I'm not confident we're making enough progress on that front to expect additional MPAs will ever become viable.

And thats why it is a business opportunity. Someone willing to work on providing liquidity for his own market pegged asset can make a profit from trading fees ... committee owned mpas dont have a market fee and no one that benefits from marketing them (except for outside fees)

It could make sense (some day in the future) to set a trading fee for mpas aswell and use that money for marketing those mpas .. but imho if we did this today, we'd probably kilm the volume we have or at least make the spread even bigger

[tbone]

There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!

Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

I think @Brekyrself was referring to adding additional network-issued MPAs and expecting/requiring witnesses to provide feeds for those assets in order to help justify higher pay. 

I like this idea in theory.  But unfortunately there isn't enough focus on liquidity, so I'm not confident we're making enough progress on that front to expect additional MPAs will ever become viable.

[xeroc]

There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!

Creating indices for stock (market pegged asset) is a business opportunity and can make the issuer a profit from trading fees. Thus I would think that it should be in his interest to set his own feed producers (which he can) and pay them for the service of providing an accurate feed

[Brekyrself]

There has always been talk about adding additional price feeds such as stocks.  If we raise the block reward what about requiring these additional feeds?  Being able to play with stocks would be a nice incentive to use BitShares!

[Chronos]

Thank you, Bitcrab, for creating the workers to collect voter sentiment on this issue, paying the fees at your own expense. We appreciate it.

[Thom]

First of all, my apologies if I have offended anyone. I tend to get rather passionate, especially when I feel the discussion is sequestered. It's not really, but participation is difficult on Telegram as I said. IMO I believe all of the details discussed on Telegram should be done more here rather than there

Sorry @Thom I didn't know you were expecting a reply from me. You had stated your case, and I stated mine, so I figured there was no sense in me spending any more time in the discussion. Sorry man, was not trying to avoid you or anything, have just been very busy.

Second, to @kenCode, please don't misunderstand what I've said as any disrespect for you. My language may not have adequately conveyed that. We do differ on our perspective on this issue, and I wish you had the desire to discuss it more here, but I understand you're very busy and apparently you find Telegram more efficient for managing your time. You're right, in that we both have presented our perspectives, and it's clear we differ on this issue. I just wished you explained your position better here concerning the expenses, labor and profit running a witness. As I said, I don't see it as a viable business anywhere but the poorest of economies. Nuf said, no need to repeat myself.

Thanks @Thom for what you have done as witness, but anyway please calm down.
many discussion happened in Telegram as it is an instand messenger so many people like the convenience, however it is just discussion, to make decision we always need open discussion and voting.
I have also considered 5BTS or 8BTS as an option, after some open discussion and the poll I decided to propose 4BTS. then I found many shareholder prefer 3BTS, I think it is good to let the community select from no change, 3BTS and 4BTS by voting, that's what had happened.
now 3BTS get most support, however we still have 9 days for voting, 4BTS option still has chance to win. if you believe 4BTS is better, you can try to talk with proxies to get support from them.

Third, thank you @bitcrab for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated. I also appreciate your efforts to wrangle this discussion into something productive that will help BitShares to move forward and not gradually fade away. It's not easy to achieve a consensus and I see you as being right in the middle of bridging the gap between the east and west. We both want BitShares to be successful even if our motivations and cultural perspectives differ. As for 3, 4, or whatever witness pay option is best, I will let xeroc make that decision for me. I believe 3 will be a good first step, and we can see what that achieves.

I like what I've seen @tbone contribute to this issue as well, and think increasing witness pay is not adequate alone. If the consensus is to increase witness involvement and quality, we also need to establish some standards to measure witness performance and to quality new witnesses prior to them being voted in. Voter apathy is an obstacle for both adding new witnesses as well as removing them, so pre-qualification would be one way to address that problem.

[bitcrab]

Thanks @Thom for what you have done as witness, but anyway please calm down.
many discussion happened in Telegram as it is an instand messenger so many people like the convenience, however it is just discussion, to make decision we always need open discussion and voting.
I have also considered 5BTS or 8BTS as an option, after some open discussion and the poll I decided to propose 4BTS. then I found many shareholder prefer 3BTS, I think it is good to let the community select from no change, 3BTS and 4BTS by voting, that's what had happened.
now 3BTS get most support, however we still have 9 days for voting, 4BTS option still has chance to win. if you believe 4BTS is better, you can try to talk with proxies to get support from them.

[fav]

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages.

not sure what you're referring to. you mean paying for a server and maintenance as work?

other than that, workers get paid decently, that's why we got that feature

[kenCode]

Sorry @Thom I didn't know you were expecting a reply from me. You had stated your case, and I stated mine, so I figured there was no sense in me spending any more time in the discussion. Sorry man, was not trying to avoid you or anything, have just been very busy.

[xeroc]

Very disappointed the meat of the discussion & debate is being held on Telegram and not here. I have tried to be involved there but it's difficult and time consuming scrolling through all the discussions that are intermixed over the course of hours.

I saw your comment there @bitcrab about their fickle response to increase, ask for 3 BTS option then they recant and say none. I'm specifically referring to @kenCode. Shit I can't even prove he did that since it's ancient history on Telegram. Is that why he won't discuss here on the forum?

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages. Everyone wants "more passion" More work but aren't willing to say what that means; you are an exception @bitcrab, tho IMHO the criteria should be even broader than you've expressed.

I think I saw @tbone mention the inclusion on the testnet as a witness requirement. Not a bad idea, especially for standby witnesses. I have refrained from participation on the testnet due to the cost of an additional VPS, a high end VPS of AT LEAST 8GB and more likely to be realistic at least 16GB or more for performance testing.

I approve testnet participation as a requirement for witnesses, however I will probably have to cut out half of my seed nodes. If the 3BTS increase is voted in, I will re-evaluate. Asking me to support 4 nodes plus a high end node for testnet is a bit much for 3BTS. Also consider the significant increase of time required to participate in the testnet.

This witness pay issue and the "secret room" nature of it being conducted PRIMARILY in real time on Telegram and not for the wider community here on the forum (and for people in the future) is very sad. I've been hanging in there waiting for more activity in general, and @kenCode and his team have been one of the most aggressive in moving forward with further development, but I'm barely making any profit maintaining 4 full nodes.

I believe he refuses to consider the bigger picture of global witness concerns. To push an agenda of lower witness pay (by not keeping up with increasing costs) without consideration for the range of costs involved IN ALL AREAS OF THE GLOBE, INCLUDING NORTH AMERICA, is not good. He has refused to respond to my post that challenges him to show how HE could sustain HIS lifestyle on witness pay alone. He can't. Subsidizing a witness "business" is necessary for all but wage earners in the poorest economies. I see it similarly to the US subsidizing corporations through incentives to outsource their operations to countries with lower labor costs. Some things that makes perfect sense to do, for others it's cost cutting, profit seeking, short sided, near term thinking and the future be damned.

As for all those "silent" witnesses that fail to participate or provide feeds, the only recourse I can see to get their attention is voting them out. For all potential standby witnesses I really want to see them participate in the testnet, especially since that is the only way standby's can publish price feeds and perfect their scripts.

Thank you @bitcrab and @tbone for a reasonable voice in all this.

This and this and .... THIS!

[Thom]

Very disappointed the meat of the discussion & debate is being held on Telegram and not here. I have tried to be involved there but it's difficult and time consuming scrolling through all the discussions that are intermixed over the course of hours.

I saw your comment there @bitcrab about their fickle response to increase, ask for 3 BTS option then they recant and say none. I'm specifically referring to @kenCode. Shit I can't even prove he did that since it's ancient history on Telegram. Is that why he won't discuss here on the forum?

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages. Everyone wants "more passion" More work but aren't willing to say what that means; you are an exception @bitcrab, tho IMHO the criteria should be even broader than you've expressed.

I think I saw @tbone mention the inclusion on the testnet as a witness requirement. Not a bad idea, especially for standby witnesses. I have refrained from participation on the testnet due to the cost of an additional VPS, a high end VPS of AT LEAST 8GB and more likely to be realistic at least 16GB or more for performance testing.

I approve testnet participation as a requirement for witnesses, however I will probably have to cut out half of my seed nodes. If the 3BTS increase is voted in, I will re-evaluate. Asking me to support 4 nodes plus a high end node for testnet is a bit much for 3BTS. Also consider the significant increase of time required to participate in the testnet.

This witness pay issue and the "secret room" nature of it being conducted PRIMARILY in real time on Telegram and not for the wider community here on the forum (and for people in the future) is very sad. I've been hanging in there waiting for more activity in general, and @kenCode and his team have been one of the most aggressive in moving forward with further development, but I'm barely making any profit maintaining 4 full nodes.

I believe he refuses to consider the bigger picture of global witness concerns. To push an agenda of lower witness pay (by not keeping up with increasing costs) without consideration for the range of costs involved IN ALL AREAS OF THE GLOBE, INCLUDING NORTH AMERICA, is not good. He has refused to respond to my post that challenges him to show how HE could sustain HIS lifestyle on witness pay alone. He can't. Subsidizing a witness "business" is necessary for all but wage earners in the poorest economies. I see it similarly to the US subsidizing corporations through incentives to outsource their operations to countries with lower labor costs. Some things that makes perfect sense to do, for others it's cost cutting, profit seeking, short sided, near term thinking and the future be damned.

As for all those "silent" witnesses that fail to participate or provide feeds, the only recourse I can see to get their attention is voting them out. For all potential standby witnesses I really want to see them participate in the testnet, especially since that is the only way standby's can publish price feeds and perfect their scripts.

Thank you @bitcrab and @tbone for a reasonable voice in all this. 

[bitcrab]

as many shareholders prefer 3BTS, so one more worker is created for 3BTS option, please vote if this is your choice.

[bitcrab]

just create 2 worker to collect share base opinions before create committee proposal, please vote according to your opinion

[bitcrab]

IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

I now tend to use "reliable feed" instead of other words.
prices may differ between different exchanges, but they are not separated.

the settlement price should be high enough that when a shorter is force settled, he can buy back the collateral from from DEX or outside exchanges with price (settlement price + compensation) without big difficulties.

the settlement price should be low enough that the collateral ratio do not over evaluate the market value of the collateral.

I believe a trader can easily understand what I said.

it may be not easy to tell which is best from several acceptable price feed.
but it is easy to select unacceptable price feed and remove.

if all the price feed is acceptable, then the final settlement price should be good enough, that is what we need.

[Thom]

IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

I totally agree @pc. As I mention in another thread standards for feeds are necessary if witnesses are to be evaluated based on their feed accuracy. I specifically said reliability of feed sources must be taken into account for example.

However, the reason for increasing witness pay is not only to support "better" feeds, and I still believe an increase is warranted.

[pc]

IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

[Thom]

Good job on the BSIP @bitcrab, I commented in github and approve.

[bitcrab]

BSIP draft submitted: https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/issues/22

[bitcrab]

Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

worker and witness are running in different mode.
for worker, the mode is propose->voters evaluate and confirm->complete job->pay
but for witness, the mode is: set a salary level and pay at block generation, while at the same time voters decide who can work by voting.

so essentially it is not the witnesses to ask for higher payment, it is the community that asking for upgraded service with paying more. it is a little similar to the bounty. but the pay should be there first then more able candidates will come for competence. and then the voters can have enough candidates to evaluate and select.

as proxy I will evaluate the witnesses and adjust voting with standards:
1.stable block generation.
2.at least feed bitCNY or bitUSD or both.
3.the price feeding should be accuate enough with no obvious drawback.

for point 1 I am not able to do enough check, hope developers can provide something for reference.

below active witnesses do not satisfy point 2:
roadscape, cyrano, btsnow, spectral, delegate-1.lafona, dele-puppy

below active witnesses do not satisfy point 3 in a just now "yunbi test":
delegate.ihashfury, delegate-clayop.

I have checked my voting and remove the above mentioned witnesses if I had voted previously.
I hope these witnesses can upgrade their service before the witness pay be really increased.

[Thom]

Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

I'm very surprised you said that Fabian. Upfront? what do you call what we've been doing all year? Before graphene was released Bytemaster suggested a witness pay rate of $300 / month at the then current price of BTS. That level has never been attained. In fact it has been as low as half that. It's currently up from that now due to the reduction of the number of witnesses, but if you expect witnesses to upgrade their servers and up their game to provide better feeds I would hope you would honor the level of support commensurate with what the community has expressed.

Note that even the eastern contingent, at least as expressed by bitcrab is in support of increasing witness pay. DataSecurityNode was also in favor or increasing it (tho way too much IMO).

Perhaps you could explain your rational for restraint and provide what you expect in order to merit an increase.

I for one will upgrade all of my systems which are running on the edge of acceptable RAM. I also intend to become more proficient in python and take a more active role in maintaining the bts tools code that wackou created.

Are there specific things you are looking for? If so do tell.

I have said repeatedly that we need to have well known standards for what is expected of witnesses, and I have yet to see anything definitive or a consensus for that published.

I would start by defining a minimum level of security, a minimum amount of RAM, and at least 1 seed node for each witness which could serve as a witness node if necessary to provide a minimum level of fault tolerance.

This push for more pay was started primarily due to "inaccurate feeds". I don't have a specific answer for that, but that's another area where some standards should be defined so witnesses have specific goals to meet for accuracy, number of sources, and perhaps feed algorithms.

[xeroc]

Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

[Thom]

Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

when I wrote, the BTS supply is 2580740816(reserve pool not included), so 4BTS means 1.6% annual dilution rate.
today's total avaliable budget: 305566 BTS. in which 68961(22.6%) are paide to 3 real worker and the left is for one refund worker.
4BTS means 115200 BTS daily payment to witness.

the current competition is based on voting, it is not perfect, a smart contract sounds wonderful, but it's not easy and implement. for example, one critiria of how well the witness work is the accuracy of the price feeding, how to evaluate the accuracy of price feeding by smart contract? increasing witness payment is incentive to better witness work including more accuracy price feeding, and higher witness payment will make the proxy more strict on voting from more candidates.

for payment in BitUSD, there are already many discussion on pay BitUSD for worker proposal, but one problem is how to supply enough bitUSD. no satisfactory solution up to now. and as active witnesses is a dynamic group, the number and members of the group may change now and then, it is not a big problem to just pay in BTS.

we have done some discussion and evaluation, it is not accurate but senseful, and the conclusion is:
1. to encourage the witnesses to pay senseful more cost and effort on witness work, we need at least double the witness pay.
2. the dilution that a 4BTS witness pay bring is acceptable.
 
this may be not a perfect solution, but it is feasible, senseful and can be implemented in not long time.

I concur with everything you said above.

[bitcrab]

Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

when I wrote, the BTS supply is 2580740816(reserve pool not included), so 4BTS means 1.6% annual dilution rate.
today's total avaliable budget: 305566 BTS. in which 68961(22.6%) are paide to 3 real worker and the left is for one refund worker.
4BTS means 115200 BTS daily payment to witness.

the current competition is based on voting, it is not perfect, a smart contract sounds wonderful, but it's not easy to implement. for example, one critiria of how well the witness work is the accuracy of the price feeding, how to evaluate the accuracy of price feeding by smart contract? increasing witness payment is incentive to better witness work including more accuracy price feeding, and higher witness payment will make the proxy more strict on voting from more candidates.

for payment in BitUSD, there are already many discussion on pay BitUSD for worker proposal, but one problem is how to supply enough bitUSD. no satisfactory solution up to now. and as active witnesses is a dynamic group, the number and members of the group may change now and then, it is not a big problem to just pay in BTS.

we have done some discussion and evaluation, it is not accurate but senseful, and the conclusion is:
1. to encourage the witnesses to pay senseful more cost and effort on witness work, we need at least double the witness pay.
2. the dilution that a 4BTS witness pay bring is acceptable.
 
this may be not a perfect solution, but it is feasible, senseful and can be implemented in not long time.

[Geneko]

Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

[fav]

the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

however I haven't saw the necessity to increase trading fees.

Very interesting.

[bitcrab]

the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

however I haven't saw the necessity to increase trading fees.

[blahblah7up]

the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

Great question!

[fav]

the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

[bitcrab]

the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

[Pheonike]

I've been running a witness node almost since the beginning of BTS-2, and I'm against increasing witness rewards at this time. The cost for running a sufficiently reliable node (or two) is covered by the rewards, even taking some hands-on time into account. I hope this will change in the future (meaning more network load), and if the BTS exchange rate does not rise along with its utilization we should talk about raising rewards, but not now.

I am, however, strongly in favour of separating the role of block producer from the role of submitting price feeds. As others have pointed out, running a reliable server requires different kinds of expertise than providing a "correct" (whatever that may be) feed.

Is it assumed that running a witness is a single person job? Is there some rule that says only one person can run one?

[Thom]

I've been running a witness node almost since the beginning of BTS-2, and I'm against increasing witness rewards at this time. The cost for running a sufficiently reliable node (or two) is covered by the rewards, even taking some hands-on time into account. I hope this will change in the future (meaning more network load), and if the BTS exchange rate does not rise along with its utilization we should talk about raising rewards, but not now.

I am, however, strongly in favour of separating the role of block producer from the role of submitting price feeds. As others have pointed out, running a reliable server requires different kinds of expertise than providing a "correct" (whatever that may be) feed.

Thank you pc, I was beginning to think I was the only one with that perspective. I voted to increase rewards to 5BTS / block, but then I run 4 nodes. If you only run 1 I agree 1.5BTS / block is adequate. However, such a setup will be vulnerable to increased missed blocks and possibly more down time if a --replay-blockchain is ever required, which is guaranteed from time to time, if only to install a new version of the witness code. Therefore given the current nature of the code I believe running 2 nodes is a bare minimum configuration, and warrants an increase to 3BTS / block.

Also, keep in mind we're pushing the limits of a 4GB RAM vps right now, and users and use of the DEX is on the rise, so an increase now is warranted IMO.

[pc]

I've been running a witness node almost since the beginning of BTS-2, and I'm against increasing witness rewards at this time. The cost for running a sufficiently reliable node (or two) is covered by the rewards, even taking some hands-on time into account. I hope this will change in the future (meaning more network load), and if the BTS exchange rate does not rise along with its utilization we should talk about raising rewards, but not now.

I am, however, strongly in favour of separating the role of block producer from the role of submitting price feeds. As others have pointed out, running a reliable server requires different kinds of expertise than providing a "correct" (whatever that may be) feed.

[Chronos]

I agree that witnesses should be paid more. They should be compensated well for the security they provide to the network.

 I voted for a doubling (3 BTS), because that's already a huge change, and we can always change it again in the future.

[R]

We should be holding such a poll using followmyvote's tech + the BTS asset, rather than a manipulatable forum poll.

I object to witnesses being paid more. If developers/witnesses wish to be paid for developing some new service, they should raise a worker proposal.

I think that witness votes should degrade over time so that witnesses have to regularly campaign for their positions (or at least acknowledge the community's existence every once in a while) & to provide new prospective witnesses the ability to be voted into power.

[abit]

Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

• A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
• Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
• Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
• Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

What is this? Moonstone has launched it's own graphene chain? Hmmm...

If I'm correct it's another guy used the similar name for that project.

[Thom]

Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

• A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
• Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
• Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
• Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

What is this? Moonstone has launched it's own graphene chain? Hmmm...

[Pheonike]

I agree with raising the pay. It will encourage witnesses to be more attune to what is needed. It also will increase competition by forcing witnesses to bring more skills to the table. Having witnesses with higher technical skills is win and can take some of burden off worker program which seems we can't get right.  We have a functioning worker program with witnesses, just incentives it more. People who do the bare minimum will start being voted out.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

[bitcrab]

Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

• A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
• Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
• Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
• Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

as a proxy I hope the witnesses can
1.generate blocks stably, this is basic task.
2.feed price, at least for BitCNY and BitUSD.
3.feed price with high quality, for example, the problem described at https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23607.0.html should be avoided

if the block pay can be increased, I will regard the witnesses that could not fulfill above standard as "lazy" or "not qualified" and unvote.

[Chris4210]

Interesting discussion about the witness pay. I would like to see the following:

• A financial breakdown how the witness pay increase will influence worker budgets
• Leasson learned from high Witness Pay on Steemit
• Active Witness Screening - Who is a "lazy" Witness? (Gchicken?)
• Recruit excited Witnesses here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1708476.0

As Committee Member I am supporting an increase in Witness Pay when we can define a clearer standard how witnesses should operate. Tools like Steemit could be used to showcase "lazy" witnesses and earn reward money for the research. I want to avoid to cut worker budget to pay more for lazy witnesses.

That also the BitShares community needs to come together and help us with creating a healthy network. The Graphene chain competition will force us all to react.

Additionally I will bring up this topic on the next BitShares Mumble on Friday for open discussion.

[Thom]

I agree with the sentiments of the OP, and DSN has made some very good points too.

I'm seeing the increase in traffic, and the demand for better / more reliable feeds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all of us witnesses are relying on free feed data sources. Perhaps witnesses need to consider subscribing to paid services for feed data. I have no idea what the cost of that would be, but one thing's for sure we've seen much unreliability of various sources like yahoo and yunbi. We also need to be sensitive to what the expectations of the Chinese community are regarding feed prices and sources.

Using paid services for feed data does come with some risk however. It's important to make sure we maintain as much diversity of sources as we can, and not be at the mercy of a centralized source to provide price data.

We in the west think in terms of "free market competition" as a means of keeping different sources accurate. I'm not sure how well that works in the Chinese market or how much influence their government has in price accuracy. It may be similar to our situation with the precious metals markets here in the US, as we know how manipulated they are as well. Precious metals prices here don't really reflect what the free market wants them to be, hence many refuse to sell at such artificially low prices.

Is that the same in China, or are prices closer to buyers and sellers expectations?

I'll say this for the record: if witness pay is increased, even if only by 2X I will put the entire increase into server upgrades and possibly a paid feed source. I also recognize I need to take on more python coding if nothing more than to stay on top of this feed issue and lessen my dependence on wackou's bts tools. They're great, but he has his hands full with family and steem, and publishing and documenting his changes to his tools aren't always a priority which puts me at a disadvantage. I need to be more proactive about that.

I also see the interest and demand for the BitShares DEX on the rise. I've been waiting for such signs. Activity has stagnated, mostly due to the excitement of steem's arrival. Now that is smoothing out and with the political pressure increasing on the Chinese front along with the global push to rid the planet of cash,  we need to be more attentive to changes in demand on the DEX.

Another thing we all need to be aware of is that once PeerPlays launches there will be even more demand for capable witnesses which will increase competition for talent. I suspect PP witness roles will not only be more demanding but will also be more lucrative. I am very anxious to finally learn the details so I can make a decision on whether to put my hat in the ring on PeerPlays. I only hope we're given adequate time from when the info is provided to when PP wants to launch. I HATE last minute rush jobs.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

I agree that the wage of witness now is too low, but I suggest that the income should be adjusted automatically according to the current network load, say"work more, get more".

This would be very bad. Very easy to setup bots that would artificially flood the network to increase rewards. The incentive to do so is aligned and it could be completely anonymous.

We already have the committee capable of making adjustments as needed. At present that is our most efficient means to adjust reward rates.

[bitcrab]

I agree that the wage of witness now is too low, but I suggest that the income should be adjusted automatically according to the current network load, say"work more, get more".

step by step, we may need to use some criteria other than load - maybe mainly how well it feed price -  to evaluate one witness' performance, it's not easy to do this automatically, we may need to rely on the voting to keep the witnesses who do job well active.

[ripplexiaoshan]

I agree that the wage of witness now is too low, but I suggest that the income should be adjusted automatically according to the current network load, say"work more, get more".

[bitcrab]

I tend to disagree to increase witness pay, on the opposite, perhaps it's better to decrease it. Witnesses are investing into the system, they're not pure employees.

In many cases higher wage doesn't bring higher performance.

We need a HR department to review every employee's performance, including witnesses' and workers' and perhaps committee members', say, give them a basic wage, then a bonus depending on their performance.

An HR department type setup is something I have been encouraging for a while. Put the hiring, firing, management of the workers in their hands so that real measures can be done, and greater accountability.

I think the pay pressure is going to increase the need for accountability.. I think there will be less tolerance for 'lazy witnesses' after this while at the same time heating up the competition. If the objective is to get new blood, better feed data, and make being a witness something that people are striving to be best at because there is a clear reward for it, then this will help accomplish that. I think the change in the rate is going to change the culture significantly.

I worry that introducing HR may introduce some other issues, this is a DAC, there are high infomaiton asymmetry and no solid company rules, so there is unignorable risk for collusion.

raising block reward may also lead to some interesting results other than better witness service.  in my imagination,  witness will mean competence+reputation+responsibility+profit, however, people need to compete for a witness position. and shareholders can fire the witness at any time if they judge he does not deserve, this machanism can work together with worker proposal as ways to encourage contributors.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

I tend to disagree to increase witness pay, on the opposite, perhaps it's better to decrease it. Witnesses are investing into the system, they're not pure employees.

In many cases higher wage doesn't bring higher performance.

We need a HR department to review every employee's performance, including witnesses' and workers' and perhaps committee members', say, give them a basic wage, then a bonus depending on their performance.

An HR department type setup is something I have been encouraging for a while. Put the hiring, firing, management of the workers in their hands so that real measures can be done, and greater accountability.

I think the pay pressure is going to increase the need for accountability.. I think there will be less tolerance for 'lazy witnesses' after this while at the same time heating up the competition. If the objective is to get new blood, better feed data, and make being a witness something that people are striving to be best at because there is a clear reward for it, then this will help accomplish that. I think the change in the rate is going to change the culture significantly.

[abit]

By the way, currently total budget is about 350K BTS per day, or say 12 BTS per block. Giving more to witnesses means less budget for workers, because witness pay has higher priority.

[abit]

I tend to disagree to increase witness pay, on the opposite, perhaps it's better to decrease it. Witnesses are investing into the system, they're not pure employees.

In many cases higher wage doesn't bring higher performance.

We need a HR department to review every employee's performance, including witnesses' and workers' and perhaps committee members', say, give them a basic wage, then a bonus depending on their performance.

[bitcrab]

I vote for steem like witness payouts to attract steem witnesses.

For several months they have developed a very strong witness following. Very few have ventured into bitshares in some part due to the lack of incentives to do so. Many witneses there are skilled developers and have contributed significant apps to the steem in order to win their approval.

I believe if rewards were high we would see the likes of @arhag come back.. and other new witnesses in steem who could take some of what they have done with steem and reapply it to bitshares.

I am quite confident this could be a significant turnaround.. it does however require more communication from the Chinese. If it is an uphill battle to gain votes from the chinese proxies who control the majority of voting power then they could be turned off.

Aside from attracting new blood, this provides considerable funds to consider incorporating paid price feed data from various sources. So with this I also think it raises the bar for witnesses in bitshares to improve on what they provide. This was what I talked about recently when there was discussion surrounding the feed data.

Raise the standards for bitshares, we raise the quality and increase our value prop.

So with that, as a Committee member, at present I am supporting a raise of 8BTS per /block payout for these reasons given primarily. If you wish to also support these types of reasons, then set your vote for Committee member to Bunkerchainlabs-com.

If the increase is only a doubling or a half measure, I don't believe we will see any significant changes at all. You can't catch your breath only making half effort from being underwater. We either go all the way to effect results or not get above the water at all.

This is my current thinking on the matter. I am open to listening to others take on this and to be swayed otherwise to be shown some other amount being able to breath air into bitshares.

interesting, DPOS means the one that contribute more will be more easily voted, this will effectively encourage contribution.
I like the word "Raise the standards for bitshares, we raise the quality and increase our value prop."

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

I vote for steem like witness payouts to attract steem witnesses.

For several months they have developed a very strong witness following. Very few have ventured into bitshares in some part due to the lack of incentives to do so. Many witneses there are skilled developers and have contributed significant apps to the steem in order to win their approval.

I believe if rewards were high we would see the likes of @arhag come back.. and other new witnesses in steem who could take some of what they have done with steem and reapply it to bitshares.

I am quite confident this could be a significant turnaround.. it does however require more communication from the Chinese. If it is an uphill battle to gain votes from the chinese proxies who control the majority of voting power then they could be turned off.

Aside from attracting new blood, this provides considerable funds to consider incorporating paid price feed data from various sources. So with this I also think it raises the bar for witnesses in bitshares to improve on what they provide. This was what I talked about recently when there was discussion surrounding the feed data.

Raise the standards for bitshares, we raise the quality and increase our value prop.

So with that, as a Committee member, at present I am supporting a raise of 8BTS per /block payout for these reasons given primarily. If you wish to also support these types of reasons, then set your vote for Committee member to Bunkerchainlabs-com.

If the increase is only a doubling or a half measure, I don't believe we will see any significant changes at all. You can't catch your breath only making half effort from being underwater. We either go all the way to effect results or not get above the water at all.

This is my current thinking on the matter. I am open to listening to others take on this and to be swayed otherwise to be shown some other amount being able to breath air into bitshares.

[JonnyB]

I agree.

Accurate price feeds are essential to bitshares and witnesses are not paid enough. Double it to at least 3bts per block

[bitcrab]

with the growing of the ecosystem, the community begin to demand more on witnesses.

one thing is price feeding, while the DEX trading volume keep on growing, the price feeding become more important than before, shorters need witnesses to provide high quality price feeding service to avoid man made margin call or force settlement transactions.

and to keep the growing network healthy, there are also requirements for witness to imporve hardware.

however, as @rnglab has summarized at https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23607.msg301580.html#msg301580, comparing to the demand to witnesses, witnesses is at a very low profit and do not have enough incentive to upgrade their service, we even can see some witnesses have forgotten their witness nodes.

these are reluctant, a blockchain platform should depend not only on the enthusiasm of volunteers, but also on some business model that can guarntee the basic service to continue, and to attract new comers, we do not like the energy wasting mining of Bitcoin, but at the business model side it is effective to keep the ecosystem growing, we can learn something from the mining model of Bitcoin. 

so now I propose to raise the block reward, currently the reward is 1.5BTS/block, now three options are given: 3BTS/block, 5BTS/block, 8BTS/block. each correspond to an annual dilution ratio of 1.22%, 2.04%, 3.22%, completely acceptable.

what we can forcast is, after the block reward rise, witnesses will more positively upgrade their hardware and service, more new comers will join the witnesses group and we will have a bigger node pool to choose the best witnesses. and I believe some interesting thing will happen.

I have proposed this in China community, up to now the response is mainly positive. now I propose here, hope everyone can express your opinion on this, I believe we now need to seriously consider and evaluate this proposal.

please also consider that the system has daily budget (witness+worker), today the budget is 349297 BTS, which means 12 BTS/block if they are totally paid to witnesses, and the daily budget is dynamic and shrinking if I am correct.