Author Topic: Liquidity, Liquidity, Liquidity  (Read 18271 times)

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Offline Stan

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Just an idea for everyone here without any special talents like software development:

  • Borrow USD
  • Borrow something else or deposit some other awesome crypto you don't mind holding
  • Check the USD price from coinmarketcap.com
  • Set up buy and sell orders at 2-4% spread, 10 orders on each side at 1% increments
  • Check out your market every 12 hours

Why?
  • You will make a profit once someone else takes your orders
  • You will make the DEX look good
  • Your actions act like a seed. A bootstrapped market invites more participants
  • You can hold your BTS while trading other coins against USD, which itself benefits Bitshares
  • You don't take any risk by holding something you fear might crash
  • You can diversify within the DEX
  • You will need other exchanges less
  • People want to trade on the DEX, and together we can provide to them.
  • You don't take the risk of leveraged trading, unless you trade in BTS markets

I've done this to the USD:MAID, USD:STEEM, USD:BLOCKPAY, USD:BTWTY, USD:EUR, USD:GOLD, USD:SILVER markets, and next I'm getting some Synereo AMP and Tauchain AGORAS to bootstrap USD:AGRS and USD:AMP markets. Once LBRY and Solarcoin are added, I will do the same to them. I'm doing all this with some €4k, which is all I have.

I'm a little amazed about the fact that I'm bootstrapping or helping bootstrap several markets, while I hold only 1/1,000,000 of all BTS (or something to that degree). What are all other holders doing? How much liquidity and how amazing markets could we provide with all that BTS? Is everyone so afraid, so the keep BTS at Poloniex just in case? Come on everyone! I don't want to brag, but point out that we have everything we need. We can do it by - doing it :-)

EDIT: If you check out the markets, you might notice that I fail to keep all the markets nice. I keep running out of liquidity myself, but then I try to readjust my holdings in order to be able to continue. Then there's the STEEM:USD market, where my orders are tiny compared to one single $6k wall, which makes it look ugly, but so what. The market is working!

 +5%

Best practical idea i've seen in a looong time.  +1 +1 +1
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Permie

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Just an idea for everyone here without any special talents like software development:

  • Borrow USD
  • Borrow something else or deposit some other awesome crypto you don't mind holding
  • Check the USD price from coinmarketcap.com
  • Set up buy and sell orders at 2-4% spread, 10 orders on each side at 1% increments
  • Check out your market every 12 hours

Why?
  • You will make a profit once someone else takes your orders
  • You will make the DEX look good
  • Your actions act like a seed. A bootstrapped market invites more participants
  • You can hold your BTS while trading other coins against USD, which itself benefits Bitshares
  • You don't take any risk by holding something you fear might crash
  • You can diversify within the DEX
  • You will need other exchanges less
  • People want to trade on the DEX, and together we can provide to them.
  • You don't take the risk of leveraged trading, unless you trade in BTS markets

I've done this to the USD:MAID, USD:STEEM, USD:BLOCKPAY, USD:BTWTY, USD:EUR, USD:GOLD, USD:SILVER markets, and next I'm getting some Synereo AMP and Tauchain AGORAS to bootstrap USD:AGRS and USD:AMP markets. Once LBRY and Solarcoin are added, I will do the same to them. I'm doing all this with some €4k, which is all I have.

I'm a little amazed about the fact that I'm bootstrapping or helping bootstrap several markets, while I hold only 1/1,000,000 of all BTS (or something to that degree). What are all other holders doing? How much liquidity and how amazing markets could we provide with all that BTS? Is everyone so afraid, so the keep BTS at Poloniex just in case? Come on everyone! I don't want to brag, but point out that we have everything we need. We can do it by - doing it :-)

EDIT: If you check out the markets, you might notice that I fail to keep all the markets nice. I keep running out of liquidity myself, but then I try to readjust my holdings in order to be able to continue. Then there's the STEEM:USD market, where my orders are tiny compared to one single $6k wall, which makes it look ugly, but so what. The market is working!

 +5%
JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
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Offline MarkoPaasila

Are you doing that manually, or using trading software?

Speaking of which, what are the current best options for automated DEX trading for liquidity and profit, preferably cli ?

I'm doing it manually, and quite amazingly it works. I guess I earn the spread because I react so slowly, and the spread grows allowing me to earn even more, before I check it and close the spread. If some coin really takes off, I will sell on the way up until I run out of liquidity. That's why I only trade with half of my holdings. I believe it's worth the sacrifice, because BTS is destined to become massive.

I don't know of  any others than liqbot/stakemachine/pybitshares and BTSBOTS. Funnily enough, I find that I make a better profit by doing it manually. I also enjoy making a new market look inviting, with incremented orders. I never succeeded in setting up the python things reliably, and I'm a little sceptical about a hosted bot.

Offline karnal

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Are you doing that manually, or using trading software?

Speaking of which, what are the current best options for automated DEX trading for liquidity and profit, preferably cli ?

Offline MarkoPaasila

Just an idea for everyone here without any special talents like software development:

  • Borrow USD
  • Borrow something else or deposit some other awesome crypto you don't mind holding
  • Check the USD price from coinmarketcap.com
  • Set up buy and sell orders at 2-4% spread, 10 orders on each side at 1% increments
  • Check out your market every 12 hours

Why?
  • You will make a profit once someone else takes your orders
  • You will make the DEX look good
  • Your actions act like a seed. A bootstrapped market invites more participants
  • You can hold your BTS while trading other coins against USD, which itself benefits Bitshares
  • You don't take any risk by holding something you fear might crash
  • You can diversify within the DEX
  • You will need other exchanges less
  • People want to trade on the DEX, and together we can provide to them.
  • You don't take the risk of leveraged trading, unless you trade in BTS markets

I've done this to the USD:MAID, USD:STEEM, USD:BLOCKPAY, USD:BTWTY, USD:EUR, USD:GOLD, USD:SILVER markets, and next I'm getting some Synereo AMP and Tauchain AGORAS to bootstrap USD:AGRS and USD:AMP markets. Once LBRY and Solarcoin are added, I will do the same to them. I'm doing all this with some €4k, which is all I have.

I'm a little amazed about the fact that I'm bootstrapping or helping bootstrap several markets, while I hold only 1/1,000,000 of all BTS (or something to that degree). What are all other holders doing? How much liquidity and how amazing markets could we provide with all that BTS? Is everyone so afraid, so the keep BTS at Poloniex just in case? Come on everyone! I don't want to brag, but point out that we have everything we need. We can do it by - doing it :-)

EDIT: If you check out the markets, you might notice that I fail to keep all the markets nice. I keep running out of liquidity myself, but then I try to readjust my holdings in order to be able to continue. Then there's the STEEM:USD market, where my orders are tiny compared to one single $6k wall, which makes it look ugly, but so what. The market is working!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 08:10:18 am by MarkoPaasila »

Offline karnal

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Ok, that's indeed a lot better than it used to be. +5%

Offline nmywn

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BTS:USD $118k 24h vol just now
Overal USD vol: $193k

You can buy a lot. It's super easy to buy,

Offline yvv

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Liquidity on bitCNY and bitUSD improved a lot during last year. Other assets will hopefully catch up.

Offline karnal

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We seem to be in this liquidity stalemate for at least a year now. It still does not appear possible to buy a robust quantity of say USD, to say nothing of GOLD or SILVER, without outrageous premiums - if that.

To reiterate, what is the current consensus on why this is so ?

Offline mea123

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A liquid asset is cash on hand or an asset that can be readily converted to cash. An asset that can readily be converted into cash is similar to cash itself because the asset can be sold with little impact on its value.

very well stated, DEX is far from such

Offline sahkan

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hello sakhan,

I am happy to tell you peercoin is already on OpenLedger and I would be ahppy to see liquidity added to the markets?

welcome

regards

Ronny Boesing
CEO
OpenLedger

Is that under OPENPPC (PPC showed up there)? There is also something called PPCNY?

Offline mea123

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.

I would, but dont even know what is POLO
more info please

Poloniex is a crytocoin exchange.

We should lobby them to add USDT/ BTS, anyone know how?

OK.. Thanks I now Poloniex, just did not know, it was to much to type the entire word..:) :) :)

Offline mea123

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I was thinking that this issues are what a DEX should have to figure out

That precisely why a plumber, a taxi driver, a housewife, a baker, somebody trading stocks and or currencies at a regular broker
call it a "broker for dummies" will not trade at DEX
its so complicated to understand lets stand to follow what you ppl are talking about, one only can get a headache
but no results that eliminates the complicate stuff.

DEX will never real work like a market supposed to work if we dont have liquidity whatever you guys are talking about

REALLY?

Offline openledger

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hello sakhan,

I am happy to tell you peercoin is already on OpenLedger and I would be ahppy to see liquidity added to the markets?

welcome

regards

Ronny Boesing
CEO
OpenLedger
OpenLedger blockchain in services and solutions - https://openledger.info
BitShares explorer: https://bitsharescan.com
BitShares commitee member since 2015

Offline sahkan

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.

I would, but dont even know what is POLO
more info please

Poloniex is a crytocoin exchange.

We should lobby them to add USDT/ BTS, anyone know how?

Way back then, when Poloniex first started I asked one of the founders to add Peercoin to Polo, he was very receptive to the idea and told me it would be added shortly (and it was).  Now that they have grown so much it might not be as easy as an email but I will put it on my "to do" list. On the same list I have that I need to engage Openledger to add Peercoin to DEX. @ccedk

Offline JonnyB

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.

I would, but dont even know what is POLO
more info please

Poloniex is a crytocoin exchange.

We should lobby them to add USDT/ BTS, anyone know how?
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Offline mea123

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overnight big change in BTS value
seems like volume picked up BTS gained 18%

If I can be help in any way, please let me know

please dont ask for technical help, I dont have a clue

Offline mea123

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.

I would, but dont even know what is POLO
more info please

Offline bitcrab

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When you say you coded the bot yourself .. did you use Xeroc's  "pybitshares" as in his earlier reply to the stakemachine topic in the Technical Support & Feedback forum section ?  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23939.msg304085.html#msg304085

It looks like there are a few Bot discussions going on at the present time.
While starting to get in Python and liking the look of pybitshares for interfacing I am not keen to reinvent the wheel especially if its designed by someone who can do it better than a newbie :-)

Interested to know if anyone is using stakemachine currently or another bot for real trades on Bitshares or Openledger Blockchain.

Cheers John

bts bots is python and can be found here https://github.com/pch957/btsbots

hosted at btsbots.com and androidstore:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.idnt4zyo1d95xegwtxmk0

yes, you can use btsbots if you like.
however, if you need to DIY some policy that btsbots does not provide, it's also a good choice to do some coding, anyway, xeroc's python library has made this easy. 
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline JonnyB

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When you say you coded the bot yourself .. did you use Xeroc's  "pybitshares" as in his earlier reply to the stakemachine topic in the Technical Support & Feedback forum section ?  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23939.msg304085.html#msg304085

It looks like there are a few Bot discussions going on at the present time.
While starting to get in Python and liking the look of pybitshares for interfacing I am not keen to reinvent the wheel especially if its designed by someone who can do it better than a newbie :-)

Interested to know if anyone is using stakemachine currently or another bot for real trades on Bitshares or Openledger Blockchain.

Cheers John

bts bots is python and can be found here https://github.com/pch957/btsbots

hosted at btsbots.com and androidstore:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.idnt4zyo1d95xegwtxmk0
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Offline j-v-h-silver

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When you say you coded the bot yourself .. did you use Xeroc's  "pybitshares" as in his earlier reply to the stakemachine topic in the Technical Support & Feedback forum section ?  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23939.msg304085.html#msg304085

It looks like there are a few Bot discussions going on at the present time.
While starting to get in Python and liking the look of pybitshares for interfacing I am not keen to reinvent the wheel especially if its designed by someone who can do it better than a newbie :-)

Interested to know if anyone is using stakemachine currently or another bot for real trades on Bitshares or Openledger Blockchain.

Cheers John

Offline bitcrab

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begin  to run the USDT/bitUSD market making bot.
hope that will help


is this btsbots ?

no, I coded the bot by myself.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline JonnyB

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begin  to run the USDT/bitUSD market making bot.
hope that will help



is this btsbots ?
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Offline bitcrab

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begin  to run the USDT/bitUSD market making bot.
hope that will help

Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline nmywn

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although the process to increase witness payment is still on going, I am considering another possibility - to pay witness in bitUSD.
frankly speaking I have considered to use bitCNY to do this, as bitCNY has better supply and market depth than bitUSD, but more bitCNY supply may lead to one result that had happened: most of the bitCNY finally acculmate in transwiser and transwiser have to force settle. so maybe bitUSD is a better choise.

suppose 0.004$ is BTS price, then block payment should be 0.012$, 345.6 USD per day.

let reserve pool borrow 62208 bitUSD - which is total witness payment for 180 days, with 0.004$ as price and 5 as collateral ratio, that need 77,760,000 BTS for collateral - seems OK.

in order to get USD for position close, every week committee will place an order to sell 604800BTS  - the total weekly witness payment with 3BTS/block, with the price calculated out from some rules: the highest BTS price in the last week or other better rules.

It would be great if witnesses and workers could be paid in BitUSD automatically by the blockchain. Unfortunately bitshares is not designed to do this and as you suggest the only way is by trusting the committee with large collateral positions.

@xeroc latest worker is similar to this proposal, lets see how that goes


I'm not sure if shareholders would be happy to trust the comittee with such large amounts.
So much problem to calculate how much BTS is needed to cover 1 USD? I mean you can pay with BTS, but value witnesses service in terms of USD.

Offline Permie

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I feel so helpless.
thanks to @JonnyBitcoin and @abit that provide more than 30k USDT, however that's not enough, to build a channel to connect USD world and non-USD world need continous and stable liquidity.
can USD world and non-USD world help each other? I mean that let non-USD world always provide more than 2000 bitUSD offer to buy USDT at 0.98-1 bitUSD, and USD world always offer more than 2000 USDT to sell at 1-1.02 bitUSD.
I can play the role to offer bitUSD, anyone will play the role to offer USDT?
how about you? @JonnyBitcoin  :)
So by doing this you would be;
providing a service. Liquidity available at a reasonable price.
And taking a 4% profit on the spread. Effectively buying bitUSD for $0.98 and then selling it to someone else for $1.20.

Using current BitShares technology, is it possible to create a crowd-funded trader-bot that performs this service?

BitShares shareholders could send funds to this bot, which trustlessly places an order on the bitUSD:fiatUSD orderbook. The 4% profit could then be shared between the crowd-bot shareholders proportionally.

The benefit of creating a crowd-funded bot would be to improve the user experience, and to get as many bts shares locked up in providing liquidity to the asset markets. Bts shares being held as collateral in Smartcoin markets reduces the accessible supply on the market. This means the bts price has more support on the buy-side, leading to rises in the bts shareprice.

I think currently shareholders are perhaps risk-averse to losing the bts stake.
Making a mistake when placing a trade on the orderbook, and then losing lots of money.
Having a crowd-bot to send a bit of money to, to make them a reasonably 'guaranteed' profit of 4%. This could earn them interest on their bitshares.

This doesnt have to be a "state mandated" crowd-bot, just a collective of shareholders who pool to provide liquidity.

I think it needs ot be as easy as possible for shareholders to get their money on the DEX helping the ecosystem grow, and earning them a profit on their bts.

Please correct me if I've made any mistakes. I'm not sure if this is even possible :)
JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
BTSDEX.COM

Offline kingslanding

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Noticed the 24hr volume for USD is over $115,000.  Is this due to the bots?  If so, nicely done.
BTS username/address:   kingslanding9999

Offline bitcrab

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I feel so helpless.
thanks to @JonnyBitcoin and @abit that provide more than 30k USDT, however that's not enough, to build a channel to connect USD world and non-USD world need continous and stable liquidity.
can USD world and non-USD world help each other? I mean that let non-USD world always provide more than 2000 bitUSD offer to buy USDT at 0.98-1 bitUSD, and USD world always offer more than 2000 USDT to sell at 1-1.02 bitUSD.
I can play the role to offer bitUSD, anyone will play the role to offer USDT?
how about you? @JonnyBitcoin  :)
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline bitcrab

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.

yes that would help alot.

@bitcrab do you use btsbots  ?

yes, I just begin using it, and when @alt lived in Shanghai we have drinked together.
btsbots is great, I even think it has the potential to become another bitkan, but now I feel the problem is that alt do all the things by himself - from backend to frontend to logo design, now the front end of btsbots is not elegant enough as alt is not so skilled at these areas, he need to find a partner or even organize a team so he can focus on the backend.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline JonnyB

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.

yes that would help alot.

@bitcrab do you use btsbots  ?
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Offline bitcrab

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anyone can persuade polo to open a BTS/USDT pair? that will help a lot.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline Permie

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3.) BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market
The best way to show people BitUSD is worth 1 USD is to create a market where BitUSD trades against a bearer asset that is worth 1 USD.  That would be USDT (see www.tether.to)
Bearer asset = Doesn't need to be kept in a named account.
I am trying to kick start the BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market with $1000 buy and sell walls and a 6% spread. Please take advantage of them or add some orders yourself. This market pair is easy for anyone to be a market maker in because  both assets have the same face value meaning you don't have to trust bot software  because orders don't need updating

 
So what you're describing here is a way for BTS Shareholders to profit, and at the same time improve the User Experience of bitshares?
Symbiotic profit for shareholder and community.

I know I've asked before, but could you describe the process of putting up 'sell walls' on the BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market?
Step by step instructions makes it far more likely a large portion of the shareholders will contribute to liquidity.

I think part of the problem is that holding bts in cold storage is very safe. Risking your investment on the exchange (if you fuck up) to make 6% by providing liquidity just doesn't seem worth it.

Do I need to open an account somewhere?
Register on tether.com?
Could you Spoon feed us the steps :)

3.) BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market
6.) Distribute BitUSD

Getting even small amounts of bitUSD in to users hands familiarises them with it and even if they dump it thats still adding trades to the market.
The idea of getting more bitusd out there is a good one and has been discussed many times on this forum. Who to and how is the tricky bit.
Are there any giftcards that use UIAs yet?
The possibility of bts shareholders making a profitable trade by exchanging bitGiftCard for physical gift card would be great.
Maybe that particular method is impossible, but some method by which bts shareholders can 'make a market' between the bts DEX and the physical world would be fantastic.
JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
BTSDEX.COM

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would like to borrow 10-30k bitUSD in a next 2 weeks to buy USDT at 1:1, if anyone can provide USDT liquidity, kindly fill the order there. please.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline JonnyB

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@Xeldal  which bot software are you using?
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Xeldal

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I get some idea, I will try to make below markets:

bitUSD:BTC
bitCNY:BTC
bitUSD:USDT
bitCNY:bitUSD

if these markets become prosperous, then DEX can be a hub to link China BTC traders and the exchanges outside China, and even CNY and USD markets.

maybe bots need to run not only inside DEX, but also with exchanges like polo, bitfinex, yunbi...?

This would be wonderful!  My bots are already linked to all these outside exchanges.

Can you use your bots to essentially mirror the bids and asks from poloniex on to the dex?

I used to do this but it was prone to so many errors, complications and vulnerabilities that I turned it off.  The existing bot is essentially the same thing only 10x more simple and you don't see the orders on the book until you run into them, which i understand isn't ideal.  It's nice to see fat books.  I'll look into what it will take to turn this back on but It will likely need a complete rework. 

Offline JonnyB

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I get some idea, I will try to make below markets:

bitUSD:BTC
bitCNY:BTC
bitUSD:USDT
bitCNY:bitUSD

if these markets become prosperous, then DEX can be a hub to link China BTC traders and the exchanges outside China, and even CNY and USD markets.

maybe bots need to run not only inside DEX, but also with exchanges like polo, bitfinex, yunbi...?

This would be wonderful!  My bots are already linked to all these outside exchanges.

Can you use your bots to essentially mirror the bids and asks from poloniex on to the dex?
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Xeldal

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I get some idea, I will try to make below markets:

bitUSD:BTC
bitCNY:BTC
bitUSD:USDT
bitCNY:bitUSD

if these markets become prosperous, then DEX can be a hub to link China BTC traders and the exchanges outside China, and even CNY and USD markets.

maybe bots need to run not only inside DEX, but also with exchanges like polo, bitfinex, yunbi...?

This would be wonderful!  My bots are already linked to all these outside exchanges.

Offline bitcrab

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I get some idea, I will try to make below markets:

bitUSD:BTC
bitCNY:BTC
bitUSD:USDT
bitCNY:bitUSD

if these markets become prosperous, then DEX can be a hub to link China BTC traders and the exchanges outside China, and even CNY and USD markets.

maybe bots need to run not only inside DEX, but also with exchanges like polo, bitfinex, yunbi...?
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline bitcrab

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hope more USDT liquidity can be provided, in the next month Bitcoin buyers cannot withdraw BTC from China exchanges, it's a good time for BTSers to borrow bitUSD and buy BTC from polo or bfx, however a bridge that connect USDT and bitUSD is needed.

I myself need to buy a little big quantity of USDT at 1bitUSD, hope someone can sell...
There are 5000+ open.USD at 1bitUSD for sell.

I need USDT, not OPEN.USD, as I cannot withdraw the latter to other exchanges.
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline 天籁

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hope more USDT liquidity can be provided, in the next month Bitcoin buyers cannot withdraw BTC from China exchanges, it's a good time for BTSers to borrow bitUSD and buy BTC from polo or bfx, however a bridge that connect USDT and bitUSD is needed.

I myself need to buy a little big quantity of USDT at 1bitUSD, hope someone can sell...
There are 5000+ open.USD at 1bitUSD for sell.

Offline bitcrab

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hope more USDT liquidity can be provided, in the next month Bitcoin buyers cannot withdraw BTC from China exchanges, it's a good time for BTSers to borrow bitUSD and buy BTC from polo or bfx, however a bridge that connect USDT and bitUSD is needed.

I myself need to buy a little big quantity of USDT at 1bitUSD, hope someone can sell...
Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline Chronos

I agree with JonnyBitcoin. Payment in BitUSD would be nice, but I strongly prefer a trustless solution.

Offline JonnyB

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although the process to increase witness payment is still on going, I am considering another possibility - to pay witness in bitUSD.
frankly speaking I have considered to use bitCNY to do this, as bitCNY has better supply and market depth than bitUSD, but more bitCNY supply may lead to one result that had happened: most of the bitCNY finally acculmate in transwiser and transwiser have to force settle. so maybe bitUSD is a better choise.

suppose 0.004$ is BTS price, then block payment should be 0.012$, 345.6 USD per day.

let reserve pool borrow 62208 bitUSD - which is total witness payment for 180 days, with 0.004$ as price and 5 as collateral ratio, that need 77,760,000 BTS for collateral - seems OK.

in order to get USD for position close, every week committee will place an order to sell 604800BTS  - the total weekly witness payment with 3BTS/block, with the price calculated out from some rules: the highest BTS price in the last week or other better rules.

It would be great if witnesses and workers could be paid in BitUSD automatically by the blockchain. Unfortunately bitshares is not designed to do this and as you suggest the only way is by trusting the committee with large collateral positions.

@xeroc latest worker is similar to this proposal, lets see how that goes


I'm not sure if shareholders would be happy to trust the comittee with such large amounts.

I run the @bitshares twitter handle
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Offline bitcrab

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although the process to increase witness payment is still on going, I am considering another possibility - to pay witness in bitUSD.
frankly speaking I have considered to use bitCNY to do this, as bitCNY has better supply and market depth than bitUSD, but more bitCNY supply may lead to one result that had happened: most of the bitCNY finally acculmate in transwiser and transwiser have to force settle. so maybe bitUSD is a better choise.

suppose 0.004$ is BTS price, then block payment should be 0.012$, 345.6 USD per day.

let reserve pool borrow 62208 bitUSD - which is total witness payment for 180 days, with 0.004$ as price and 5 as collateral ratio, that need 77,760,000 BTS for collateral - seems OK.

in order to get USD for position close, every week committee will place an order to sell 604800BTS  - the total weekly witness payment with 3BTS/block, with the price calculated out from some rules: the highest BTS price in the last week or other better rules.


Email:bitcrab@qq.com

Offline Geneko

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Here is another idea. Dex MM bot. Maybe it was already discussed but I couldn't find any similar topic.

Suppose we define worker with 300K BTS available funds. The duration of a worker could be time limited.
I know daily limit is around 300K BTS but it could be increased. Purpose of mm bit is to provide liquidity for basic MPA assets (bitUSD, BitCNY, bitBTC, BitSilver, bitGold, bitEur).

According to my calculations average daily volume on all mentioned assets are about 11k usd. Suppose we collect funds on a workers account and wait for the pool to be filled with 6M bts. Now we would have enough collateral to create all daily volume of trading. Then we activate a MM bot with a purpose of adding liquidity. Limitations are that all accumulated BTS funds from worker, never leave account. Only those BTS from selling short could be used for buying MPAs.   Lets assume spread is 2%. Now everybody who wants to buy or sell should beat 2% spread on feed price.

What would happen? Thoughts?

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,obvious resolution here would be to provide incentive for shorter in from of transaction fee, that would compensate for those two inbalances. All other possible measures only rectify or reduce this mayor one. It would make mmbots unprofitable? I doubt.

"obvious resolution here would be to provide incentive for shorter in from of transaction fee"

Hmmm. My theoretical explanations (9-12 mo. ago) have been long proven by actual real life.... occurrences. ...
aka Meager "transaction fees" cannot, no where enough offset actual risks taken by the short position holders....
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bitAndy

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I think we've got to get the word out in a concerted marketing effort, especially once echo comes online and focus on getting some userability feedback.

I cant believe we're now down near 30th on cmc and our mkt cap is almost under 10m.

What is echo? We've been under $10m in the past but back then we were sitting about 10-15 on CMC; there's more money in crypto now so we've been pushed down the pack. Maybe that makes it look like we're in a worse position than we really are.

Offline mike623317

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I think we've got to get the word out in a concerted marketing effort, especially once echo comes online and focus on getting some userability feedback.

I cant believe we're now down near 30th on cmc and our mkt cap is almost under 10m.

Offline tbone

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You are NOT properly stating the alleged "imbalances".  The fact is, the required collateral is less than 200% (175% in bitshares.org/wallet, and a little more in the OL wallet).  And what do you do after borrowing (let's say butUSD, for example)?  You short it.  So you're selling it to someone for 100% face value.  So now your collateral goes from 175% to 75%.  Which means you actually have NET LEVERAGE when shorting BitAssets.  So there really is no imbalance with collateral. 



This is correct. Although 75% MCR is bit higher than other exchanges require for shorting (polonoex requires 40% initial, 20% maintanence collateral). It may be safe to have high collateral initially, but as market spins up, we need to assess posibility  of reducing MCR to be competitive.

 Yes, good point!


Offline yvv

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You are NOT properly stating the alleged "imbalances".  The fact is, the required collateral is less than 200% (175% in bitshares.org/wallet, and a little more in the OL wallet).  And what do you do after borrowing (let's say butUSD, for example)?  You short it.  So you're selling it to someone for 100% face value.  So now your collateral goes from 175% to 75%.  Which means you actually have NET LEVERAGE when shorting BitAssets.  So there really is no imbalance with collateral. 



This is correct. Although 75% MCR is bit higher than other exchanges require for shorting (polonoex requires 40% initial, 20% maintanence collateral). It may be safe to have high collateral initially, but as market spins up, we need to assess posibility  of reducing MCR to be competitive.

Offline Geneko

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You are NOT properly stating the alleged "imbalances". 
Sorry! English is not my native language.
The fact is, the required collateral is less than 200% (175% in bitshares.org/wallet, and a little more in the OL wallet).  And what do you do after borrowing (let's say butUSD, for example)?  You short it.  So you're selling it to someone for 100% face value.  So now your collateral goes from 175% to 75%.  Which means you actually have NET LEVERAGE when shorting BitAssets.  So there really is no imbalance with collateral. 
I mean practical use case. If you would open position with 175% collateral you would be margin called immediately, you need to add extra collateral to compensate for possible market swing. Please check out for actual shorter accounts collateral. I doubt you will find any account with less collateral to debt ratio of 230%.

What I am talking here are two things. Fear and Greed. Obviously fear prevail in bitUSD case.

Your reasoning is ok. But obviously it is different then peoples perception.
At the end my opinion is irrelevant here. What we need is testing. I may be right or wrong. But only real life tests could prove one or another.

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Great timing and great tutorial Jonny. Please RSVP for the BitShares Liquidity contest here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23769.0.html
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Offline tbone

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Lets not complicate, lets dive in for simplicity.
Adding liquidity is not a task or a goal. It is consequence of joining two interest parties, that make honest deal.
Who are those interest parties? Is there a balance of risk/reward between two parties.

One interest party is known and it is the one that wants to use convenience of bitUSD. Has no additional risk when buying except that of significant price drop. But since it is relatively stable you could only expect to lose gain if price of crypto goes high, fast.
The other party has to provide at least two times the value (BTS lightwallet actually recommends 2,3:1), and expose it self to a price fluctuation risk that is disproportional to possible reword.

There are two equitation that needs balance here:
two_times_value vs one_time_value
high_fluctuation_risk vs none

,obvious resolution here would be to provide incentive for shorter in from of transaction fee, that would compensate for those two inbalances. All other possible measures only rectify or reduce this mayor one. It would make mmbots unprofitable? I doubt.

You are NOT properly stating the alleged "imbalances".  The fact is, the required collateral is less than 200% (175% in bitshares.org/wallet, and a little more in the OL wallet).  And what do you do after borrowing (let's say butUSD, for example)?  You short it.  So you're selling it to someone for 100% face value.  So now your collateral goes from 175% to 75%.  Which means you actually have NET LEVERAGE when shorting BitAssets.  So there really is no imbalance with collateral. 

The rest of your post points I already addressed below.  As a BitAsset shorter, you can be rewarded by proposed liquidity rewards just like anyone else adding liquidity to the market (incuding proper marker makers).  Between 1. the leverage, 2. the liquidity rewards, and 3. having more liquidity on the books thanks to market makers (enabling you to get out of your position when you want to), there would be MORE than enough incentive to short BitAssets.   So there's no reason to introduce the kind of market distortion you're proposing. 



Offline Geneko

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Lets not complicate, lets dive in for simplicity.
Adding liquidity is not a task or a goal. It is consequence of joining two interest parties, that make honest deal.
Who are those interest parties? Is there a balance of risk/reward between two parties.

One interest party is known and it is the one that wants to use convenience of bitUSD. Has no additional risk when buying except that of significant price drop. But since it is relatively stable you could only expect to lose gain if price of crypto goes high, fast.
The other party has to provide at least two times the value (BTS lightwallet actually recommends 2,3:1), and expose it self to a price fluctuation risk that is disproportional to possible reword.

There are two equitation that needs balance here:
two_times_value vs one_time_value
high_fluctuation_risk vs none

,obvious resolution here would be to provide incentive for shorter in from of transaction fee, that would compensate for those two inbalances. All other possible measures only rectify or reduce this mayor one. It would make mmbots unprofitable? I doubt.

Offline yvv

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Quote
5) Bots -- I would love to see even better, easier-to-use bot options.  btsbots is a really nice step in the right direction, but the interface is not very intuitive.  And there's no way to manage the balancing of your inventory within some constraints.  If you're not careful, you could end up with all of your funds in just one of the assets you're trying to provide liquidity to.  As discussed in #4 above, this is not as big of a deal in a 1:1 market  like bitUSD : USDT.   But you still probably don't want to end up so imbalanced like that.  So for the sake of making it easier for people to provide liquidity to ALL markets, I hope btsbots continues to improve. 

Check the options. You can set the max balance for each asset.

Offline tbone

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In my previous post on this thread, I mentioned the liquidity rewards idea that I've been talking about in Telegram.  And Telegram user @LogikGeek asked me a question about it in the chat so I wanted to answer here since it's relevant to this thread.  The question and answer are below.

Logik Geek asked:
Quote
@tbone you have said in the past that bitshares needs to become attractive to traders who short bitusd instead of long term investors because long term bitshares investors creating bitusd depend on the price of bts to rise. By traders did you mean traders who make trades on a time horizon that is so small (next hours to days) that bts is as likely to to up as down during that time, effectively eliminating the effect of long term price trends of bts?

It's not so much the timeframe. It's the fact that they play both sides at all times, buying at the bid and selling at the ask, enabling them to earn the spread.  That's what market makers (like @bitcrab) do.  And if the market trends too much in one direction (creating an imbalance in their inventory) they know how to hedge it.  We need more sophisticated market participants like this and should incentivize them by rewarding anyone who ADDS liquidity to the order book. 

This is NOT to say that the other types of participants are not important.  In fact, attracting market makers would be *great* for the trader types (@JonnyBitcoin, @clayop, etc) who want to short BitAssets into existence, because their biggest fear is being unable to get out of their short position if BTS goes down.  They would not have to worry about this if we had proper market makers who would be sitting on the ASK, giving the BitAsset shorters a way out whenever they need it. These BitAsset shorters would also benefit by earning some of the liquidity rewards, as long as they are ADDING liquidity (by selling BitAssets at the bid), not TAKING liquidity (by selling BitAsets at the ask).

Offline tbone

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1) Focus on BitUSD  -- I agree that we should focus more on bitUSD.  When it comes to the tabs, I would like to see OBITS removed as well.  Actually, in the bitshares wallet OBITS doesn't have it's own tab.

2) Simplify borrowing of BitUSD -- I also agree with the idea of simplifying the borrowing of bitAssets.  And I'm glad @svk added the borrow link.  But keep in mind that it's only showing up in your wallet because you happen to have some bitUSD balance.  Anyone that does not have any bitUSD balance will not see that.  I have some ideas about how to deal with this, but it needs to be part of a broader plan relating to how assets in general should be displayed on the account page of the wallet.  OL has taken a step in the right direction with their new table displaying all assets.  But unfortunately they are only getting it partly right and don't seem to be interested in listening.

3) BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market  --  I am slightly on the fence about this one.  Although I agree with it more than not.  I'm just having a little trouble grasping the utility of this market.   I mean, who will actually USE it.  There's no point if there won't be users.  In other words, outside of market makers and arbitrageurs,  who has USDT and would like to exchange it for bitUSD (or vice versa)?  But yeah, theoretically, there SHOULD be people who want to do this.  So I would be in favor of giving it a try.  And I agree that it's easier for non-sophisticated participants (i.e. non market makers) since the market is 1:1 and can't trend in one direction and create a large and growing imbalance in your inventory (which market makers would ordinarily hedge against).  And even if it did get out of balance, there's no real risk that needs to be hedged.  The only actual risk is ending up with more of the centralized asset than the trustless one, if that's a problem for you.

4) Maker / Taker model  --  I don't  see why this would be very difficult even though it requires a hard fork.  I think we should consider doing it because it just makes sense long term.  Every real exchange offers a maker/taker pricing model.   But in the short term, we really do need more than that to push liquidity.  We need something like the liquidity rewards I've been talking about, which requires no fork (it can be done totally off-chain).

5) Bots -- I would love to see even better, easier-to-use bot options.  btsbots is a really nice step in the right direction, but the interface is not very intuitive.  And there's no way to manage the balancing of your inventory within some constraints.  If you're not careful, you could end up with all of your funds in just one of the assets you're trying to provide liquidity to.  As discussed in #4 above, this is not as big of a deal in a 1:1 market  like bitUSD : USDT.   But you still probably don't want to end up so imbalanced like that.  So for the sake of making it easier for people to provide liquidity to ALL markets, I hope btsbots continues to improve. 

6) Distribute BitUSD  --  You're talking about creating users.  I totally agree with that.  We'll probably start to get more users when Blockpay merchants start coming online.  But we should bolster that and accelerate the user adoption.  Another idea is to have a trading contest focused on bitUSD markets.  See link below as an example.  This would bring in more users, traders in this case.  By the way, users mostly TAKE liquidity.  Which is fine.  We need that kind of market participant.  But it's pointless unless we also have participants that ADD liquidity.  This is partly addressed by your list of suggestions.  But we need a real rewards program that incentivizes proper market makers by rewarding anyone who adds liquidity. 

https://www.fxcm.com/why-fxcm/trading-contest/

Offline JonnyB

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Bitshares is superior to other exchanges because it uses BitUSD which has no human liability and is decentralised.
But this advantage means little if our BitUSD is not available to buy in quantity near the peg.

A liquid asset is cash on hand or an asset that can be readily converted to cash. An asset that can readily be converted into cash is similar to cash itself because the asset can be sold with little impact on its value.


We need to make BitUSD a liquid asset. But how?
 
1.) Focus on BitUSD
We must concentrate trading activity on BitUSD.
There is no point trying to make all our smartcoins liquid assets at the same time as this spreads trades thinly across many markets.
The number of trade tabs on Openledgers GUI has been reduced which is great but the OBITS one still needs to be removed.


2.) Simplify borrowing of BitUSD
Make it more intuitive to borrow BitUSD by adding borrow as an action next to the BitUSD. (update: @svk  has now implemented this)


3.) BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market
The best way to show people BitUSD is worth 1 USD is to create a market where BitUSD trades against a bearer asset that is worth 1 USD.  That would be USDT (see www.tether.to)
Bearer asset = Doesn't need to be kept in a named account.
I am trying to kick start the BitUSD:OPEN.USDT market with $1000 buy and sell walls and a 6% spread. Please take advantage of them or add some orders yourself. This market pair is easy for anyone to be a market maker in because  both assets have the same face value meaning you don't have to trust bot software  because orders don't need updating

 
4.) Maker / Taker model.
This is a model that incentivises people to put up orders for other people to take.
if you take orders off the orderbook you pay more. If you make orders on the order book you pay less. (trade fees)
I personally think at this stage the maker taker model won't help much and will be a lot of effort to implement. there is lower hanging fruit to be had first.

5.)Bots
Bots are bits of software that do automated trading, most trades that happen in the world today are done by bots. These bots are configured by their human owners to do stuff like abitrage or market making. These are essential to liquidity on the dex and their importance is underestimated .
Any coder can create a bot and let others use the software.  @xeroc created a bot in python that is available here:https://github.com/xeroc/stakemachine
But if you're not a developer you can use this web based bot system created by @alt www.btsbots.com
If thats too hard for you see point number 3.) again.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23457.0.html



6.) Distribute BitUSD

Getting even small amounts of bitUSD in to users hands familiarises them with it and even if they dump it thats still adding trades to the market.
The idea of getting more bitusd out there is a good one and has been discussed many times on this forum. Who to and how is the tricky bit.

As a dividend to shareholders or Lifetime Members: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23706.msg301767.html#msg301767
To pay worker proposals and witnesses: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23028.0.html
Just create Bitusd using from the reserve pool via a worker proposal and then sell at peg: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22935.0.html
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares