Ethereum - better than Bitshares?

[toast]

Their business model is to raise 30,000 BTC for initial distribution. They are clearly not trying to collect money from anyone interested in the economics of Ethereum as an independent entity.

[santaclause102]

Because mining!

Toast I can see you pacing out BM in terms of forum posts per second which is great. But what did you wana say?

If you meant mining is a habit and thought pattern the bitcoin community / ethereum guys keep. I think this is unlikely. They are not dumb...

I think Ethereum will generate revenue by selling dedicated mining hardware, amongst others.

But what a businessmodel is that? How do they want to make sure that no dedicated mining company outperforms them?

[sumantso]

Because mining!

Toast I can see you pacing out BM in terms of forum posts per second which is great. But what did you wana say?

If you meant mining is a habit and thought pattern the bitcoin community / ethereum guys keep. I think this is unlikely. They are not dumb...

I think Ethereum will generate revenue by selling dedicated mining hardware, amongst others.

[toast]

I just meant to give a direct answer to.

Is there any good reason to no limit the money supply with ethereum? Because that just (unnecessarily?) dilutes everyones shares.

If you assume a change as big as removing mining (they're even considering specialized hardware...) then there are a whole bunch of changes you could assume until ethereum is no longer ethereum. Basically, I have no confidence they'll switch away from mining "gracefully" given they are trying it at all.

[santaclause102]

Because mining!

Toast I can see you pacing out BM in terms of forum posts per second which is great. But what did you wana say?

If you meant mining is a habit and thought pattern the bitcoin community / ethereum guys keep. I think this is unlikely. They are not dumb...

[toast]

Because mining!

[santaclause102]

Hi all,

Ethereum (often considered a Bitshares alternative) is about to start something in 6 days / 25.1.2014... (see countdown at Main site: http://ethereum.org/ )
Do you think its better than bitshares? Why yes, why no?
Is it better to invest 100% in Ethereum instead of indirectly investing 1:10 (PTS share of bitshares is 10% only)
into bitshares right now? Can bitshares outperform ethereum by factor 10?
Really thinking about it where to invest and its a tough decision.. so whats your oppinion on that and why?


Whitepaper: http://vbuterin.com/ethereum.html
Forums: http://forum.ethereum.org/

Mich431

Ethereum isn't designed to be a good store of value. I won't be investing in it but I'll use it for sure and I'll mine it if it can be mined with general purpose hardware. I will not buy dedicated hardware to mine it.

I think the fact that the majority of investors and programmers alike are saying they wont be buying the tokens should tell you something. At the same time it's agreed upon that Ethereum is a cool technology and a nice experiment. It's just not something to "invest" into because if it's a DAC it's not a for profit DAC.

Ethereum has a linear and infinite increase in ether supply (as far as I know). This in my opinion is what makes it a questionable investment (the one blockchain for everything is a trade of that comes with the system as a whole...). Is there any good reason to no limit the money supply with ethereum? Because that just (unnecessarily?) dilutes everyones shares.

[luckybit]

Hi all,

Ethereum (often considered a Bitshares alternative) is about to start something in 6 days / 25.1.2014... (see countdown at Main site: http://ethereum.org/ )
Do you think its better than bitshares? Why yes, why no?
Is it better to invest 100% in Ethereum instead of indirectly investing 1:10 (PTS share of bitshares is 10% only)
into bitshares right now? Can bitshares outperform ethereum by factor 10?
Really thinking about it where to invest and its a tough decision.. so whats your oppinion on that and why?


Whitepaper: http://vbuterin.com/ethereum.html
Forums: http://forum.ethereum.org/

Mich431

Ethereum isn't designed to be a good store of value. I won't be investing in it but I'll use it for sure and I'll mine it if it can be mined with general purpose hardware. I will not buy dedicated hardware to mine it.

I think the fact that the majority of investors and programmers alike are saying they wont be buying the tokens should tell you something. At the same time it's agreed upon that Ethereum is a cool technology and a nice experiment. It's just not something to "invest" into because if it's a DAC it's not a for profit DAC.

[bytemaster]

1)Ethereum may having trouble with its design. I bet Ethereum will drop the cpu mining in Q3 and release its first version in Q4
2) Ethereum is trying to build DAO that use its dedicated mining hardware which may go nowhere

Yep!  This will be on Let's Talk Bitcoin! in early February.

Sounds like the exact business model Charles was trying to get us to use with BitShares before I killed mining... lets see how long it takes them to figure out that mining with dedicated hardware is a dead-end hardware lock.   

Can you provide links to backup your claims / speculation?   

[sfinder]

1)Ethereum may having trouble with its design. I bet Ethereum will drop the cpu mining in Q3 and release its first version in Q4
2) Ethereum is trying to build DAO that use its dedicated mining hardware which may go nowhere

Yep!  This will be on Let's Talk Bitcoin! in early February.

[cass]

I'd love to see the lead developers of Bitshares, Ethereum, NXT, eMunie, .. have a public discussion in a dedicated forum thread.

We will be participating in a live panel on Friday (BitShares/Ethereum/Mastercoin) to debate the issues and it should be available for download somewhere.

Is there a video online or something to download of this discussion? Saw the photos in fb photo stream!

[stuartcharles]

I'd love to see the lead developers of Bitshares, Ethereum, NXT, eMunie, .. have a public discussion in a dedicated forum thread.

We will be participating in a live panel on Friday (BitShares/Ethereum/Mastercoin) to debate the issues and it should be available for download somewhere.

Yep!  This will be on Let's Talk Bitcoin! in early February.

Did anyone get this?

[JakeThePanda]

what i understand is investment wise Ether isn't designed for strong price appreciation due to high starting ipo price and huge number of ether (1 Trillion + ether?) , while proto / ags / bitshares offer good potential returns on investment for Investors as a reward for risk taking.

i still like Ether, however i do not view it as a threat or direct competitor to Bitshares.

Where did you get 1 Trillion from? The IPO price is .001.  That's close to a 1 trillion starting mkt. cap.  Don't you think that's ridiculous?  I agree that the IPO price is very high, but I think the supply will start between 30-60mm coins.  I'm not sure though.

[coolspeed]

Their profit model is that of bitcoin, asset appreciation.

100% of revenue is paid to miners.

A *more* important question for them is will it be more profitable to implement BitShares on top of Ethereum or with its own chain?   As a developer building a new DAC I would have to conclude I could lower expenses and increase revenue and decentralization by building my own chain.   One time development costs are nothing compared to the life time a DAC is designed to operate an the value of that DAC.

I agree with the latter.

100% of revenue is paid to miners.

You are right from a labor theory of value standpoint In the end most people profit form price increase due to demand increase due to (potential) usability.

But I dont get the ROI model. Bitcoin has stepped up to be a currency for day to day transactions and a store of value (right now mostly valued because of its network strength). But ethereum advertises itself with being just a base layer so no services like bitcoin (basic money transfer) so there would be no value if nothing i built upon it. How do they want to avoid that I come along build on it and dont let ether holders profit from it? And how could I let the ether holders profit from it?

bytemaster, are you sure the system doesn't allow to have a separate chain but still using it/building upon it?

They can answer it, if they can prove that to implement Bitshares on top of ethereum and share the common metacoin with the other DACs such as third-party brand DomainShares (just for example) would make it more competitive than to implement on its own chain and own metacoin. And may the absence of distributed HTTP protocol be the reason?

And this will also answer another question: Why it will be more competitive to implement on ethereum than a copycat of it (let's say, ethereum_2, ethereum_3)?

Ethers do be precious. Ethereum is not just a metacoin. It's also used to drive the contracts( machines that executes the bytecodes). So the need for ether will surely increase, What I don't understand is: Who will execute the bytecodes? In other words, who are the contracts?

And I think one of the problems of ethereum is that: the blockchain will be dumped all by similar bytecodes repeatedly.

Is there some misunderstanding I took?

[marcelus]

Your math is wrong, the inflation rate will approach 0% as the monetary base approaches infinity.

what is the monetary base in your equation?

What would be Ethereum's business model? How would ether holders profit from other developers building upon it?

Day One: Monetary Base is 2x
Year One: Monetary Base is 2.5x
Year Two: Monetary Base is 3x...

Everyone who contributes funds is diluted 33% in the genesis block, 50% by the end of the first year, 66% in 3 years and over 80% in 10 years.

What I meant was this: Ethereum doesn't provide any service by itself. It is just a base layer. So the question is: How is it assured that ether holders profit if a DAC layers on top of ethereum?

Yes precisely. This also the issue with bitcoin's relationship with mastercoin. There is no direct demand created for bitcoins by the Master Protocol. They have to hope that people will just hold bitcoins as a result of the growth of the meta-protocols being built on top of it. This is far from guaranteed.