Complaint against clockwork witness

[yamtt]

@blckchnd

[zhouxiaobao]

      Bitusd is different from bitcny. As far as I know, in the United States, you cannot directly exchange legal tender for bitusd, but in China we can directly exchange legal tender for bitcny. 1bitusd is not equal to 1usd. it is obviously unreasonable to use bitusd to calculate the premium of bitcny.
        It is very clear how much RMB can be exchanged for 1bitcny. As can be seen from the Magic wallet, the daily transaction volume is at least hundreds of thousands.
        Why do I care about the feeding price? Because I invested more than 2 million RMB in DEX. I bought bitcny directly in RMB
and then traded in DEX. This is what many people do in China.Bitcny has always been at a premium.
       I think to a large extent, it is the feeding price that affects the BTS price, not the BTS price that affects the feeding price. Because it may actually be DEX in BTS's largest trading market, but DEX has almost no effect on the feed price.

[FearlessAsian]

Dont see any issues with clockworks feeds, the price of bitCNY on the DEX is irrelevant to the feed, the price at any given time reflects market sentiment on the DEX for that smartcoin. Feeds are meant to reflect an accurate price of CNY in BTS from third party sources otherwise if the price comes from your own DEX trading price then it can easily be manipulated. Are the formulas published openly ?

BitCNY was traded, day before yesterday, on the DEX 6.99 and 7.05 for 1 bitUSD, while its actual fiat conversion rate was ~6.88

Regardless of what witness will feed, its heavy manipulated market and arbitrage from their fiat gateway to DEX and vice-versa. I do understand why so much interest for "perfection" around bitCNY, but i'm not letting someone like Alex being raped publicly without even decent colleague to ask him on PM - "hey man, whats up with your feed ? Do you need some help ?". Instead I see Asian community disregarding his timezone and regular life obligations on top of it, and just ram.

Btw, on the other hand, fellow stakeholders, if we are so much into the price feeds, why the f**k securitydatanode block producer is active, signing blocks and not providing ANY feeds ?

[zhouxiaobao]

To my knowledge most price feeds **DO** consider the dex price too. But usually prices are **VOLUME** weighted.
Arguable, this needs to be use carefully with exchanges that fake their volume.

According to DEX's current trading volume, I think the proportion of DEX price should reach at least 50%.
        According to the observation over the past few days, it seems that the price of DEX has almost no effect on the feeding price.
        I hope that the Council can come up with a unified rule for the provision of feed prices. The witnesses' feed prices are far too different.

[xeroc]

To my knowledge most price feeds **DO** consider the dex price too. But usually prices are **VOLUME** weighted.
Arguable, this needs to be use carefully with exchanges that fake their volume.

[zhouxiaobao]

Dont see any issues with clockworks feeds, the price of bitCNY on the DEX is irrelevant to the feed, the price at any given time reflects market sentiment on the DEX for that smartcoin. Feeds are meant to reflect an accurate price of CNY in BTS from third party sources otherwise if the price comes from your own DEX trading price then it can easily be manipulated. Are the formulas published openly ?

The total number of BTS is 2.7 billion. Excluding some whales that basically do not participate in the trade, the number of active BTS is probably not more than 2 billion. Today, DEX's trading volume is over 70 million, usually tens of millions. I think DEX is probably BTS's largest market (obviously, many CEX trading volumes are exaggerated). The feed price does not consider DEX's price, which is very unreasonable.
       
      The price on DEX is completely true. In China, DEX recharges or withdraws more than several hundred thousand RMB every day, even reaching several million RMB when the market is hot. BTS price is (DEX price * premium).

[xeroc]

Dont see any issues with clockworks feeds, the price of bitCNY on the DEX is irrelevant to the feed, the price at any given time reflects market sentiment on the DEX for that smartcoin. Feeds are meant to reflect an accurate price of CNY in BTS from third party sources otherwise if the price comes from your own DEX trading price then it can easily be manipulated. Are the formulas published openly ?

Not sure what people ae using, but I started a feed script back in the days and Zapata worked on it even more:
https://github.com/Zapata/bitshares-pricefeed/blob/develop/bitshares_pricefeed/pricefeed.py#L374

[binggo]

the price of bitCNY on the DEX is irrelevant to the feed

How did you get this answer？

All the picture is fake?

[George_Bitspark]

Dont see any issues with clockworks feeds, the price of bitCNY on the DEX is irrelevant to the feed, the price at any given time reflects market sentiment on the DEX for that smartcoin. Feeds are meant to reflect an accurate price of CNY in BTS from third party sources otherwise if the price comes from your own DEX trading price then it can easily be manipulated. Are the formulas published openly ?

[FearlessAsian]

The most important job for witnesses is reliably producing blocks. Other jobs, yes, they can do too. When voting, different people consider different things.

Just brain storming. Please discuss.

Agree - Somehow our entire ecosystem is going nuts about someone who has less missed blocks than 30% of the entire block production line.

[FearlessAsian]

BHUZ EXAMPLE


Clockwork - just publish feeds every 1+ hour like everybody else, I believe you'll get less problems.



See ? Your feed is too tight man. Every 20 mins... Better save those 3-4 BTS extra like others and all good ;)


Chee®s

[liondani]

The most important job for witnesses is reliably producing blocks. Other jobs, yes, they can do too. When voting, different people consider different things.

Technically, the committee is able to decide the list of feed producers for each asset, that said, if witnesses can't do the job well, let others do it. The community can discuss whether this is a better way.

Another option, technically we can change the rules via BSIPs. For example, let bitCNY holders and bitCNY debt position owners vote for feed producers of bitCNY asset, vote for the related parameters, which could be fairer. However, this is tricky as well, for example, if a whale borrows a lot but doesn't sell, so holding some bitCNY in the meanwhile holding a position, perhaps it can manipulate the whole vote then can make a disaster. Perhaps let bitCNY holders/borrowers have some weight in voting but not 100%? Perhaps let CORE in collateral have zero weight?

Just brain storming. Please discuss.

can we discuss in a topic with a different title though? :D

At the end of the day they will remember your name .... bad publicity is the same time good publicity... just be worried if they spell your name right :)

[yamtt]

Perhaps we should turn the witch hunt around and publish screenshots of short positions with low collateral ratio.

These guys are the cancer of BTS and must be punished! Vote for 150% MSSR please!

</sarcasm>

This would be considered a direct attack to a high ranked member who wants to increase feedprice ,lower MSSR to 1 so no margin call will get eaten anymore.
You are against long debt holders.You are an enemy.Making sure margin calls won't get eaten anymore gives debt holders security and will increase debt aka liquidity /irony off.

Btw the chinese forum has a nice thread why people with low price feed gets bashed.
First lower MCR than increase price feed and at the end lower MSSR to 1.01 with final goal 1.00 .
There is also explained why.


@yamtt
@finn-bts
@ljk424
@zhouxiaobao
@ioex

I see big activity from you guys to improve bitshares.How does it come you guys are so quite about the abused USD OMO Fund ?

I care about system balance, as well as identifying witnesses who don't implement community consensus and those who are malicious or wrong.

[yamtt]

This is the feed price of clockwork?

Yes...ZBs API started timing out for me and has made the feed unstable due to limited sources...

As you can see it was readjusted a few mins later and I'm monitoring  its stability now.

Other people's no problem, I think you can, of course, the problem is inevitable but often problems. I think everyone will not agree.

[clockwork]

The most important job for witnesses is reliably producing blocks. Other jobs, yes, they can do too. When voting, different people consider different things.

Technically, the committee is able to decide the list of feed producers for each asset, that said, if witnesses can't do the job well, let others do it. The community can discuss whether this is a better way.

Another option, technically we can change the rules via BSIPs. For example, let bitCNY holders and bitCNY debt position owners vote for feed producers of bitCNY asset, vote for the related parameters, which could be fairer. However, this is tricky as well, for example, if a whale borrows a lot but doesn't sell, so holding some bitCNY in the meanwhile holding a position, perhaps it can manipulate the whole vote then can make a disaster. Perhaps let bitCNY holders/borrowers have some weight in voting but not 100%? Perhaps let CORE in collateral have zero weight?

Just brain storming. Please discuss.

can we discuss in a topic with a different title though? :D

[abit]

The most important job for witnesses is reliably producing blocks. Other jobs, yes, they can do too. When voting, different people consider different things.

Technically, the committee is able to decide the list of feed producers for each asset, that said, if witnesses can't do the job well, let others do it. The community can discuss whether this is a better way.

Another option, technically we can change the rules via BSIPs. For example, let bitCNY holders and bitCNY debt position owners vote for feed producers of bitCNY asset, vote for the related parameters, which could be fairer. However, this is tricky as well, for example, if a whale borrows a lot but doesn't sell, so holding some bitCNY in the meanwhile holding a position, perhaps it can manipulate the whole vote then can make a disaster. Perhaps let bitCNY holders/borrowers have some weight in voting but not 100%? Perhaps let CORE in collateral have zero weight?

Just brain storming. Please discuss.

[FearlessAsian]

Certainly, I think clockwork is one who cares a lot. But it makes a difference if you go from zero feedback to a pitchfork mob without even having a clear definition of duties and guidelines for what a fair price is, or if you choose to start constructive conversation in the matter.

I am not directed against clockwork, but this is a serious problem among some witness.

Constructive conversation? yes，for many times, but i found nobody care about it, maybe clockwork cares a lot, but where the other commitmess and witnees? especially the witnees.

I also disapproved to go at somebody, but we need to find out someway to solve these problems and prevent these things happend again and again.

I do agree with this clear and factual statement of yours 100%. And i do agree that interest on witness overall and other participants is definitely not enough. But I also agree with Stefan that Alex is the one who care, so again no reason to fud him, and at least minimum would be 48 hours to correct the problem in IT, since he is not paid for it on Premium terms and exclusive 24hrs support base.

Instead of having now dozens of workers setting up just parameters on certain bitAssets, why not just write new BSIP's for both bitCNY and bitUSD ? It could include all parameters configured individually and price feed terms (fair price, price feed recovery, fix, sources for prices, etc) for the witnesses as basic requirements for their jobs.

I think that having 2 BSIP's followed by 2 clean workers can be a good start for this issue we have. Any additional tweaks can be short workers that would be additional milestones/tweaks on current BSIP's and their respective workers.

Chee®s

[clockwork]

We are all guilty of few things:

-Impatience
-Intolerance
-Lack of technical knowledge (few members)
-Lack of knowledge in economics (few members)
-Lack of respect towards colleagues across the Globe or timezone they are in, families/jobs they have or things they did around.

I think the problem of feed price need a whole set of role to be clearly defined.

Why we can't get a "fair" feed price？

The argument come from the ambiguous and human factors.

But if didn't have these topics, nobody will care about what's the problem with the bitasset.

A big part of this problem is that due to crypto on-boarding limitations in China, what is fair there is not fair for everyone else.

Same way you can't find a way to buy "cheap" bts, the west can't find a way to sell BTS at the prices you pay.

We need to find ways to focus on this arbitrage shift so we have better price discovery.

[binggo]

Certainly, I think clockwork is one who cares a lot. But it makes a difference if you go from zero feedback to a pitchfork mob without even having a clear definition of duties and guidelines for what a fair price is, or if you choose to start constructive conversation in the matter.

I am not directed against clockwork, but this is a serious problem among some witness.

Constructive conversation? yes，for many times, but i found nobody care about it, maybe clockwork cares a lot, but where the other commitmess and witnees? especially the witnees.

I also disapproved to go at somebody, but we need to find out someway to solve these problems and prevent these things happend again and again.

[yamtt]

@verbaletch2This is your feed price and the price of the current inner plate.

[sschiessl]

We are all guilty of few things:

-Impatience
-Intolerance
-Lack of technical knowledge (few members)
-Lack of knowledge in economics (few members)
-Lack of respect towards colleagues across the Globe or timezone they are in, families/jobs they have or things they did around.

I think the problem of feed price need a whole set of role to be clearly defined.

Why we can't get a "fair" feed price？

The argument come from the ambiguous and human factors.

But if didn't have these topics, nobody will care about what's the problem with the bitasset.

Certainly, I think clockwork is one who cares a lot. But it makes a difference if you go from zero feedback to a pitchfork mob without even having a clear definition of duties and guidelines for what a fair price is, or if you choose to start constructive conversation in the matter.

[binggo]

We are all guilty of few things:

-Impatience
-Intolerance
-Lack of technical knowledge (few members)
-Lack of knowledge in economics (few members)
-Lack of respect towards colleagues across the Globe or timezone they are in, families/jobs they have or things they did around.

I think the problem of feed price need a whole set of role to be clearly defined.

Why we can't get a "fair" feed price？

The argument come from the ambiguous and human factors.

But if didn't have these topics, nobody will care about what's the problem with the bitasset.

[FearlessAsian]

We are all guilty of few things:

-Impatience
-Intolerance
-Lack of technical knowledge (few members)
-Lack of knowledge in economics (few members)
-Lack of respect towards colleagues across the Globe or timezone they are in, families/jobs they have or things they did around.

One bad feed for one period doesn't make the witness bad. Script and API does. And whoever points the finger and its part of this organization. We should all be more united together instead of constantly being on some "witch hunt" as mentioned above.

A lot of you people here are having skills that can be useful to this ecosystem (including stakeholders), but yet everybody have their own goals/interests aligned to themselves and nobody more.

OMO USD funds or anything else that was worked on and went south... ->> no agreement, no terms, no entities, no passport copies... what did you all expect ? Why I'm so interested into reaching certain level of legality around BitShares for so long... So businesses, gateways and our employees can finally get a tight knot around the neck and stop fucking around when some responsibility is on them. It's easy to cashout all the time and have 0 responsibility, but it's hard to put a face or name to thing or a fuckup that you are cashing out from.

Please stop pointing out fingers to each other and try help each other. I haven't seen one block producer offering help with API or issues that Clockwork has, but I see a lot of people just going along with fingers.

P.S. Abitmore is excused from the sentence above, he can all teach us some manners and business ethics, even being completely anonymous person around for years. His opinion is always solid and individual, explained well in details and proved with facts/estimates done properly



Chee®s

[binggo]

Very very interesting，the holder of bts is guilty

[sahkan]

Perhaps we should turn the witch hunt around and publish screenshots of short positions with low collateral ratio.

These guys are the cancer of BTS and must be punished! Vote for 150% MSSR please!

</sarcasm>

This would be considered a direct attack to a high ranked member who wants to increase feedprice ,lower MSSR to 1 so no margin call will get eaten anymore.
You are against long debt holders.You are an enemy.Making sure margin calls won't get eaten anymore gives debt holders security and will increase debt aka liquidity /irony off.

Btw the chinese forum has a nice thread why people with low price feed gets bashed.
First lower MCR than increase price feed and at the end lower MSSR to 1.01 with final goal 1.00 .
There is also explained why.


@yamtt
@finn-bts
@ljk424
@zhouxiaobao
@ioex

I see big activity from you guys to improve bitshares.How does it come you guys are so quite about the abused USD OMO Fund ?

Am I the only one that thinks the DEX and the feed should be impartial to shorts/longs?

The ONLY way to increase adoption is to make it fair. This means that we don't protect ANYONE.

I understand the logic behind protecting longs since this means we get more bitasset supply from less people with less capital

But bitAsset success depends on it being fair and treating both sides as equals. Increased supply wont help if the asset is not taken seriously and risk is transferred from borrowers to holders.

Unless your goal is to make it a niche instrument for increased leverage.

But don't expect adoption as a stable coin if you do.

Also..if any of you can't follow what I just wrote you probably shouldn't be commenting...

/rant off

I feel (agree with) you.

The longs hold all the BTS and buy more with their newly created smartcoins so their voting power is skewed. The shorts hold ZERO votes, so I second that.

[abit]

Perhaps we should turn the witch hunt around and publish screenshots of short positions with low collateral ratio.

These guys are the cancer of BTS and must be punished! Vote for 150% MSSR please!

</sarcasm>

This would be considered a direct attack to a high ranked member who wants to increase feedprice ,lower MSSR to 1 so no margin call will get eaten anymore.
You are against long debt holders.You are an enemy.Making sure margin calls won't get eaten anymore gives debt holders security and will increase debt aka liquidity /irony off.

Btw the chinese forum has a nice thread why people with low price feed gets bashed.
First lower MCR than increase price feed and at the end lower MSSR to 1.01 with final goal 1.00 .
There is also explained why.


@yamtt
@finn-bts
@ljk424
@zhouxiaobao
@ioex

I see big activity from you guys to improve bitshares.How does it come you guys are so quite about the abused USD OMO Fund ?

Am I the only one that thinks the DEX and the feed should be impartial to shorts/longs?

The ONLY way to increase adoption is to make it fair. This means that we don't protect ANYONE.

I understand the logic behind protecting longs since this means we get more bitasset supply from less people with less capital

But bitAsset success depends on it being fair and treating both sides as equals. Increased supply wont help if the asset is not taken seriously and risk is transferred from borrowers to holders.

Unless your goal is to make it a niche instrument for increased leverage.

But don't expect adoption as a stable coin if you do.

Also..if any of you can't follow what I just wrote you probably shouldn't be commenting...

/rant off

I feel (agree with) you.

[clockwork]

Perhaps we should turn the witch hunt around and publish screenshots of short positions with low collateral ratio.

These guys are the cancer of BTS and must be punished! Vote for 150% MSSR please!

</sarcasm>

This would be considered a direct attack to a high ranked member who wants to increase feedprice ,lower MSSR to 1 so no margin call will get eaten anymore.
You are against long debt holders.You are an enemy.Making sure margin calls won't get eaten anymore gives debt holders security and will increase debt aka liquidity /irony off.

Btw the chinese forum has a nice thread why people with low price feed gets bashed.
First lower MCR than increase price feed and at the end lower MSSR to 1.01 with final goal 1.00 .
There is also explained why.


@yamtt
@finn-bts
@ljk424
@zhouxiaobao
@ioex

I see big activity from you guys to improve bitshares.How does it come you guys are so quite about the abused USD OMO Fund ?

Am I the only one that thinks the DEX and the feed should be impartial to shorts/longs?

The ONLY way to increase adoption is to make it fair. This means that we don't protect ANYONE.

I understand the logic behind protecting longs since this means we get more bitasset supply from less people with less capital

But bitAsset success depends on it being fair and treating both sides as equals. Increased supply wont help if the asset is not taken seriously and risk is transferred from borrowers to holders.

Unless your goal is to make it a niche instrument for increased leverage.

But don't expect adoption as a stable coin if you do.

Also..if any of you can't follow what I just wrote you probably shouldn't be commenting...

/rant off

[Thul3]

Perhaps we should turn the witch hunt around and publish screenshots of short positions with low collateral ratio.

These guys are the cancer of BTS and must be punished! Vote for 150% MSSR please!

</sarcasm>

This would be considered a direct attack to a high ranked member who wants to increase feedprice ,lower MSSR to 1 so no margin call will get eaten anymore.
You are against long debt holders.You are an enemy.Making sure margin calls won't get eaten anymore gives debt holders security and will increase debt aka liquidity /irony off.

Btw the chinese forum has a nice thread why people with low price feed gets bashed.
First lower MCR than increase price feed and at the end lower MSSR to 1.01 with final goal 1.00 .
There is also explained why.


@yamtt
@finn-bts
@ljk424
@zhouxiaobao
@ioex

I see big activity from you guys to improve bitshares.How does it come you guys are so quite about the abused USD OMO Fund ?

[pc]

Perhaps we should turn the witch hunt around and publish screenshots of short positions with low collateral ratio.

These guys are the cancer of BTS and must be punished! Vote for 150% MSSR please!

</sarcasm>

[clockwork]

This is the feed price of clockwork?

Yes...ZBs API started timing out for me and has made the feed unstable due to limited sources...

As you can see it was readjusted a few mins later and I'm monitoring  its stability now.

[ioex]

This is the feed price of clockwork?

LOL，bad witness，he cheat all BTSer，and so many btser vote him !  So ridiculous!

[ioex]

@bitcrab, @cn-vote     

你们为什么会给这个见证人投票呢？

[yamtt]

This is the feed price of clockwork?

[yamtt]

This is the feed price of clockwork?
Please cancel the voting of clockwork. He often does not adjust the price in time.

[ioex]

Please cancel the voting of clockwork. He often does not adjust the price in time.

agree

[yamtt]

Please cancel the voting of clockwork. He often does not adjust the price in time.

[ioex]

It has been more than an hour, and the feed price is still lower than any other CEX（DEX）.Except for a few witnesses, no witness is qualified.

I only just woke up and saw this....

I actually made this post in witness channel BEFORE I saw this topic:

Alex M - clockwork, [14.05.19 09:24]
adjusted price feed sources again.

Alex M - clockwork, [14.05.19 09:25]
too much fake vol exchanges combined with tether arbitrage were dragging my feed down


Also...I didn't refuse to make price for CNY...I just didn't like your attitude on downturns. If you had noticed, I adjusted sources then and my feed was higher than median until last night.



As you can see, most of the time (except for a few hrs overnight where the sudden appearance of fake low price vol is obvious) my feed is above median

but I guess you guys only see what you want to see.

bad witness！
@cn-vote please see this bad witness clockwork ！

[zhouxiaobao]

Until now, the feed price is still lower than the DEX price. It is obvious that bitcny is still at a premium. now it costs 1.0185 yuan to buy a bitcny. Is this feeding rate reasonable? I am not complaining about you alone. In fact, what you did is not the worst. The feed  price provided by witnesses is generally and chronically low.

[liondani]

I guess this photo apply's here also  :P

[clockwork]

It has been more than an hour, and the feed price is still lower than any other CEX（DEX）.Except for a few witnesses, no witness is qualified.

I only just woke up and saw this....

I actually made this post in witness channel BEFORE I saw this topic:

Alex M - clockwork, [14.05.19 09:24]
adjusted price feed sources again.

Alex M - clockwork, [14.05.19 09:25]
too much fake vol exchanges combined with tether arbitrage were dragging my feed down


Also...I didn't refuse to make price for CNY...I just didn't like your attitude on downturns. If you had noticed, I adjusted sources then and my feed was higher than median until last night.



As you can see, most of the time (except for a few hrs overnight where the sudden appearance of fake low price vol is obvious) my feed is above median

but I guess you guys only see what you want to see.

[zhouxiaobao]

It has been more than an hour, and the feed price is still lower than any other CEX（DEX）.Except for a few witnesses, no witness is qualified.

[finn-bts]

With all due respect, clockwork is a poor witness. Not long ago he refused to make a price for cny, and now he makes a seriously off-base one for BTS

[ljk424]

bad witness

[yamtt]

@Clockwork malicious feed, please cancel his vote

[finn-bts]

The price you provided is far lower than the normal price. If you think the price you provided is true, please sell Bts to me at the price you provided.