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Offline bytemaster

The Significance of what we are doing...
« on: February 10, 2014, 09:43:42 PM »

The long term benefit of decentralized autonomous companies is the creation of millions of information-based jobs that allow everyone to make money by contributing what they know to the market.  Whether you love music, inventions, news articles, insurance, or currency speculation there will be ample opportunities for people to make money on what they know.   

Consensus technology has the power to do for economics what the internet did for information.

Consensus technology has the power to make governments irrelevant to the provision of law, courts, crime prevention, contract enforcement, voting, or any other so-called public good. 

I am not claiming that governments will be overthrown or that people will vote them out of office, instead I mean to say that their rulings and opinions will be of no practical significance once superior consensus technologies are able to garner more influence and power through voluntary, nonviolent, entirely legal action than governments can wield at gunpoint.

Consensus technology can harness the combined power of all humanity to coordinate the discovery and aggregation of real-time knowledge previously unobtainable.   This knowledge can be used to more effectively coordinate the allocation of resources toward their most productive and valuable use.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline xeroc

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 09:48:58 PM »
+5%   nice reading
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Offline oco101

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 10:01:44 PM »
+1  +1  +1

Offline phoenix

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 11:39:56 PM »
 +5%
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Offline toast

Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 11:48:02 PM »
 +5%
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline CLains

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 11:54:00 PM »
I love posts like this!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 02:15:02 PM by CLains »
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 12:31:44 AM »
 +5%
I am very excited about the potentials for society and you gave a great talk on that radio station yesterday! Everyone should listen.
Some differentiation: Would you agree that consensus technology can make civil law (partly) unnecessary but not penal law. Or would you want to challenge the centralization of the right to use force by the state? If so how would you want to make sure a violant person (for example a killer) gets arrested?


Offline Empirical1

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 12:39:05 AM »
 +5%

I agree, it can bring about such positive change!  :D

The problem is however great the system is that someone designs, isn't the problem always going to be the fiat to crypto gateway?

This is kind of a re-quote from an article I read today...

"Due to the nature of its structure, banning crypto-currencies will of course not eradicate them. But what it will do is make it impossible for law-abiding individuals and businesses to use them — and thereby render them practically useless anyway."




Offline bytemaster

Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 12:44:22 AM »
+5%
I am very excited about the potentials for society and you gave a great talk on that radio station yesterday! Everyone should listen.
Some differentiation: Would you agree that consensus technology can make civil law (partly) unnecessary but not penal law. Or would you want to challenge the centralization of the right to use force by the state? If so how would you want to make sure a violant person (for example a killer) gets arrested?

I believe that consensus technology can make both civil and penal law irrelevant.   For starters, it can make it possible to come to a consensus about who-dun-it.  Then they can be cut of from economic life.   The police wouldn't dare harm someone or attempt to lock someone up because if they are wrong the market can hold them personally accountable. 

A violent person would eventually be put down in an act of self defense, but everyone always has an opportunity to pay restitution and get back in good standing.   Imagine how much crime there would be if every time you enter a business and attempt to buy something they get an instant criminal record and if they do business with you they become liable for paying back your restitution as well?

A violent person would thus be in a virtual jail, living in poverty, until they voluntarily check in to a work facility that provides them food, shelter, and clothing while they work to pay off their restitution.   

Bottom line is that I believe there are market solutions that eliminate the need to use violence in any way except immediate self defense.   I believe that insurance systems can make victims of violent crime whole while the insurance company focuses on collecting the compensation from the perp.



For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 12:47:39 AM »
+5%

I agree, it can bring about such positive change!  :D

The problem is however great the system is that someone designs, isn't the problem always going to be the fiat to crypto gateway?

This is kind of a re-quote from an article I read today...

"Due to the nature of its structure, banning crypto-currencies will of course not eradicate them. But what it will do is make it impossible for law-abiding individuals and businesses to use them — and thereby render them practically useless anyway."

Everything is legal somewhere.... this would certainly slow things down, but there are just too many benefits to society and individuals who use the coins to keep it down forever.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 01:14:03 AM »
+5%

I agree, it can bring about such positive change!  :D

The problem is however great the system is that someone designs, isn't the problem always going to be the fiat to crypto gateway?

This is kind of a re-quote from an article I read today...

"Due to the nature of its structure, banning crypto-currencies will of course not eradicate them. But what it will do is make it impossible for law-abiding individuals and businesses to use them — and thereby render them practically useless anyway."

Everything is legal somewhere.... this would certainly slow things down, but there are just too many benefits to society and individuals who use the coins to keep it down forever.

Yes that's true.

Bitshares can probably only go up in if it works well regardless.

But I think yes Bitcoin can be slowed down/lose a lot of its current value if the West decides to come down hard on it.

Offline santaclause102

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 01:57:27 AM »
I believe that consensus technology can make both civil and penal law irrelevant.   For starters, it can make it possible to come to a consensus about who-dun-it.  Then they can be cut of from economic life.   The police wouldn't dare harm someone or attempt to lock someone up because if they are wrong the market can hold them personally accountable. 

> Such a common consensus would put public opinion above all individual rights (human and civil). The need to objectively prove someone's crime is a good thing. Imagine a case where a member of a minority group is suspected to have committed a crime. If society is heavily split into opposing groups there is no justice and no neutral court to decide (neutral court is an approximation). And who votes? Everyone (in the world, in a nation, in a town?) has to vote or do people only vote when they want to? 

A violent person would eventually be put down in an act of self defense, but everyone always has an opportunity to pay restitution and get back in good standing. Imagine how much crime there would be if every time you enter a business and attempt to buy something they get an instant criminal record and if they do business with you they become liable for paying back your restitution as well?

> The latter example with the business and the reputation makes a lot of sense to me. But its limitation is in that that would be total surveillance again. Everyone knows what bad things you have done. Doesn't feel free probably.
When does self defense begin? If someone would walk around your neighborhood and shoot people (that happens sometimes and reputation loss is the least thing that would keep people from such actions) and there is no entity that is given the right by the community to use force and only self defense is allowed you would have to wait until that guy comes to your house. If you defend your community and bring the violator down because he is a threat to others that is the same acceptance of violance as now its just not centralized. How do you then judge of the "extended self defense" was justified (the example is obviously but what if someone just steals something from an innocent person?). So as long as the is violence there is a need to counter it. If there is no central authority with the unique rigth to use violence everyone has to have the right to use it. Then who restricts the individual's right to use violence?
Also who would arrest the person which the consensus majority thinks has commuted the crime? 

A violent person would thus be in a virtual jail, living in poverty, until they voluntarily check in to a work facility that provides them food, shelter, and clothing while they work to pay off their restitution.   

> I think any violent action (physical or psychological) is irrational in the sense the it worsens your conditions and still people do it. People use violence against themselfs (eg. by abusing drugs) and against others. All conditions are in place today to make that make sure that (mostly, in terms of violence at least) you are very bad of when you harm society. And still people do it. This is not rational and can often not be countered by rational incentives.   

Bottom line is that I believe there are market solutions that eliminate the need to use violence in any way except immediate self defense.  I believe that insurance systems can make victims of violent crime whole while the insurance company focuses on collecting the compensation from the perp.

> Overall my advocatus diabolo position here would be the one of Hobbes. He lived in a violent society in the 17th century with a lot of opposing groups all seeking to achieve the power over the other ones. He gets abstract and describes a situation where everyone has to be afraid of the other one (or the other group) because everyone is equally capable of killing the other one (no one is physically superior enough to dominate the others which can form coalitions if needed). In that situation you better kill the other one before he kills you (preventive self defense). The only solution then is for everyone to agree to give away the individual right to use force to some entity. Nation states are based primarily on this concept and i think it works if that entity is heavily controlled / restricted / supervised. But it is not an optimal concept and I would like to get convinced (by some practical examples/applications that are broken down to the individual's incentives (material or immaterial incentives).



Offline toast

Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 02:06:20 AM »
I believe that consensus technology can make both civil and penal law irrelevant.   For starters, it can make it possible to come to a consensus about who-dun-it.  Then they can be cut of from economic life.   The police wouldn't dare harm someone or attempt to lock someone up because if they are wrong the market can hold them personally accountable. 

A violent person would eventually be put down in an act of self defense, but everyone always has an opportunity to pay restitution and get back in good standing.   Imagine how much crime there would be if every time you enter a business and attempt to buy something they get an instant criminal record and if they do business with you they become liable for paying back your restitution as well?

A violent person would thus be in a virtual jail, living in poverty, until they voluntarily check in to a work facility that provides them food, shelter, and clothing while they work to pay off their restitution.   

Bottom line is that I believe there are market solutions that eliminate the need to use violence in any way except immediate self defense.   I believe that insurance systems can make victims of violent crime whole while the insurance company focuses on collecting the compensation from the perp.

Two points here:

1) I think you're underestimating the impact of human bias on decisions justice. I would not take any justice DAC seriously until it demonstrated awareness of such biases.
2) Be careful about how extreme the political views you express on these forums are, you might be getting a lot more scrutiny than you anticipate soon and it'd be better not to give your opponents ammunition (even if you're right "in the end")
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 02:16:01 AM »
Your argument makes assumptions about how I would approach things with your number 1 argument being that *someone* must be allowed to initiate force.   So of course, attacking a straw man is easy.   I do not advocate trials of public opinion as you suggest: it does not scale, and is not just.   I advocate consent of the governed where every Keyhotee ID publicly signs which laws they will follow and by which agencies they are willing to be judged.   Then phone software can validate that two people have compatible systems of law and dispute resolution before you do business. 

Of course there is injustice insurance which to qualify for you must also agree to certain rules and post collateral on your own behavior.   People are only systematically shunned when they are found guilty of violating a law they agreed to follow by a court they agreed to submit to. 

Note: if you assume that someone must be allowed to initiate force you automatically limit your creative problem solving ability by limiting your search space.   

I take the stance that it is not necessary to initiate force based upon a very simple premise: "don't do unto others what you don't want them to do unto you".   From this position I do not want any one to use violence against me just because they think I am guilty or because a court they select found me guilty.   Even if I am guilty I don't want force used against me. 

As soon as you give even an inch and grant someone a monopoly on initiating violence then over time that institution will turn into what we have in the USA today.   Now you have to decide who is exempt from the law and who gets to make the final call.... they will use this power to exempt themselves.  Then the laws will start to become arbitrary as well as the court decisions.   You remove market forces from a situation and quality declines and prices increase.   You then necessitate taxes to fund your laws and thus implement a socialist justice system where new victims are created to punish perps. 

Bottom line... I may not have the solutions yet, but I believe there exists a structure that will allow the vast majority of good men and women in the world to secure their life, liberty, and property without resorting to stealing from each other or stooping to the same level as the very people they are trying to stop.   

Idealistic?  Maybe... something to strive for... definitely.    Impossible?





For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: The Significance of what we are doing...
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 03:12:39 AM »
 +5% Wow, great vision, something special here.

 

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