Author Topic: BitShares XT - Security against Market Manipulation FIND ATTACKS FOR TIPS  (Read 52653 times)

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Offline tonyk

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'I don't follow... do it step by step. I buy both bts and bitusd. Now what?'
You buy 1 bitUSD and sell 1 bitUSD BTW not 'buy both  bts and bitusd.'
 

Neutral* bitAsset position with unlimited max gain.
*[neutral] Read with limited max loss of 0 i.e. riskless (for this particular asset) and at 0 cost;

0 risk and 0 cost (and do not star arguing that there is commission, so it is not 0 cost – for all practical purposes it is 0 cost) with gain potential - generally no one in his right mind offers such benefits. It is potentially a lot for nothing situation…
How one profits from this? – I do not know yet, working on it… all I know it is a situation that is so good it is not logical to exist. Close relative: lotto ticket at ~0 price and 10^-12 chance to win $100. => the lotto organizer is doing something wrong.

I like this kind of analysis... lets see if I can rephrase it.

You buy 1 BitUSD and short 1 BitUSD and we assume parity at the time you took the position; therefore your account looks like:

2 BTS held as collateral for 1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.

If BTS goes down your short position is wiped out and you can sell your 1 BitUSD for 2 BTS... break even.... it may be possible for someone else to call your short and thus the going price for you to sell your 1 BitUSD for may be less than 2 BTS.

If BTS doubles in value, then you can cover for .5 BTS and sell your 1 BitUSD for 2 for a grand total of 3.5 BTS, a gain of 1.5 BTS.
If you held 2 BTS then you could have had 4 BTS or a .5 BTS opportunity cost   

So the conclusion would be that the 'always win' move is to hold both at the same time...  If there is a always win position that might suggest there there is an always loose position and that the system is unbalanced.  Either that or the 'always win' move isn't truly an always win position.

So I think I found the problem with the analysis...  It is always win in terms of BTS, but if you do it in terms of USD then it isn't.   Lets run the same numbers again.

Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth $0.50 for a total of $1  (a 50% loss or more)
BTS doubles... you end up with 3.5 BTS worth a total of $7 for an opportunity cost of $1

If instead you had gone long 2 BitUSD then you would have ended up with 4 BTS worth $2.00 (break even or less). 

So I think we need to be very careful how we calculate our profits and losses with various trading strategies because it is very easy to be deceived into thinking you have gains which are just nominal rather than real.

To get a better understanding I will do the 2 possible neutral positions (let’s call them ‘Simple Neutral Position’ and ‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’)  in parallel, so it is easier to see the differences:

1.Open the position

‘Simple Neutral Position’
2 BTS  held on the balance sheet.
Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS. 

-------
‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’:
You buy 1 BitUSD and short 1 BitUSD and we assume parity at the time you took the position; therefore your account looks like:
2 BTS held as collateral for -1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   
Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 




2. Scenario - BTS doubles...:

‘Simple Neutral Position’  2BTS * $2 = $4;
‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’ – you sell your 1bitUSD and at the same price cover your short (i.e -1 bitUSD); 2 BTS collateral is released back to you; 2BTS * $2 =$4

3. Scenario - BTS crashes...:

‘Simple Neutral Position’: 2 BTS worth $0.33 for a total of $.66
‘System Enhanced  Neutral Position’ ; your short was closed so you end with 0 BTS from the collateral; you have 1 bitUSD worth 3.03 PTS; you sell it and end up with 3 BTS; 3*$0.33~ $1

In the last scenario you see the enhancement;
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

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Offline tonyk

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Explaining it at this hour is a tad difficult is correct and I did not wrote this CRUDE Form of the   “Have a cake and eat it too attack” for you to read before tomorrow. Also I hoped I will refine/clarify it till then so... night now
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

CRUDE Form  of  “Have a cake and eat it too attack”
attack description:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57544#msg57544
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57576#msg57576


1. Due to publication in the internet (i.e. available to everyone) it is known that you can have risk free position in bitUSD (in the BTS X exchange) which cost 0 %.
2. It is also clear that in 99%+ of the time such position will make 0% dollars.
3. In order to increase your chances of success you must have your (1 bitUSD; - 1bitUSD) position as low as possible (as low as possible ratio bitUSD/USD).
4. Significant part of the market participants are aware of p.1-3, so coordinated or not, but in their joint knowledge and interest they drive the price of bitUSD low and take their neutral position (1 bitUSD; - 1bitUSD)
5. rest is history… the price is returning to near parity bitUSD/USD ~1; all who took their '1'/-1 position below ½ bitUSD/USD make money; all who took their 1/-1 position in the ½ to 1 range end up even; all who did not read about the “Have a cake and eat it too attack” pay for the party….


F*** !!!! The F***** thing is changing my 'plus ones' to  +5%


Step 4 is the problem... where you make all of your assumptions.   Explaining it at this hour is a tad difficult, but you start off assuming 'intent to drive the price to point X' so we can profit on the rebound can be uncoordinated and naturally happen because those 'in the know' can predict when everyone else will make this initial move and thus everyone can act in concert...

I have news for you, if we all knew in advance that someone were going to drive the price to point X, then we would buy low and sell at X and use as much leverage as we could.  If everyone knows that price X is out of balance then you wouldn't want to be +/- at the same time, you would go all in because the market direction would be obvious. 



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Offline tonyk

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Tony, your math is not adding up.  The initial cost is 2 BTS.   Please check it carefully.

Seems fine to me.... will double check though!
Yes you are right... it is wrong let see if this changes anything(it should not).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 04:15:06 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline tonyk

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CRUDE Form  of  “Have a cake and eat it too attack”
attack description:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57544#msg57544
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57576#msg57576


1. Due to publication in the internet (i.e. available to everyone) it is known that you can have risk free position in bitUSD (in the BTS X exchange) which cost 0 %.
2. It is also clear that in 99%+ of the time such position will make 0% dollars.
3. In order to increase your chances of success you must have your (1 bitUSD; - 1bitUSD) position as low as possible (as low as possible ratio bitUSD/USD).
4. Significant part of the market participants are aware of p.1-3, so coordinated or not, but in their joint knowledge and interest they drive the price of bitUSD low and take their neutral position (1 bitUSD; - 1bitUSD)
5. rest is history… the price is returning to near parity bitUSD/USD ~1; all who took their '1'/-1 position below ½ bitUSD/USD make money; all who took their 1/-1 position in the ½ to 1 range end up even; all who did not read about the “Have a cake and eat it too attack” pay for the party….


F*** !!!! The F***** thing is changing my 'plus ones' to  +5%
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 04:08:41 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Agent86

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2 BTS held as collateral for 1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.


Actually correct:
2 BTS held as collateral for -1 BitUSD
-1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.
+1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  1 BTS


Tony, your math is not adding up.  The initial cost is 2 BTS.   Please check it carefully.

Offline tonyk

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Updated post is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3130.msg57694#msg57694
2 BTS held as collateral for 1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.


Actually correct:
2 BTS held as collateral for -1 BitUSD
-1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS


...continuing...updating... 5%....

this will likely lead this:
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth $0.50 for a total of $1  (a 50% loss or more)
BTS doubles... you end up with 3.5 BTS worth a total of $7 for an opportunity cost of $1

to be actually:
Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth  a total of X  - IT does not matter what X is; You have 2 BTS worth the same as if you just bought 2 BTS and hold them.
BTS doubles + ... you end up with 1 BTS worth a total of $Z > $2  for an opportunity cost of $0

...updating... 7%....

BTW on a side note you are introducing the outside market in this discussion, which taints your analyses (probably due to the discussion with MolonLabe).
I am of the opinion that the outside market/s are important if you try to analyze the feasibility of the system (the general concept). And I consider an ‘attack’ only something that is implementation specific, and not something proving the general idea of the system inapplicable… But it is may be just me.
 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 01:23:51 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

'I don't follow... do it step by step. I buy both bts and bitusd. Now what?'
You buy 1 bitUSD and sell 1 bitUSD BTW not 'buy both  bts and bitusd.'
 

Neutral* bitAsset position with unlimited max gain.
*[neutral] Read with limited max loss of 0 i.e. riskless (for this particular asset) and at 0 cost;

0 risk and 0 cost (and do not star arguing that there is commission, so it is not 0 cost – for all practical purposes it is 0 cost) with gain potential - generally no one in his right mind offers such benefits. It is potentially a lot for nothing situation…
How one profits from this? – I do not know yet, working on it… all I know it is a situation that is so good it is not logical to exist. Close relative: lotto ticket at ~0 price and 10^-12 chance to win $100. => the lotto organizer is doing something wrong.

I like this kind of analysis... lets see if I can rephrase it.

You buy 1 BitUSD and short 1 BitUSD and we assume parity at the time you took the position; therefore your account looks like:

2 BTS held as collateral for 1 BitUSD
1 BitUSD held on your balance sheet.   

Total Initial Cost:  2 BTS.

If BTS goes down your short position is wiped out and you can sell your 1 BitUSD for 2 BTS... break even.... it may be possible for someone else to call your short and thus the going price for you to sell your 1 BitUSD for may be less than 2 BTS.

If BTS doubles in value, then you can cover for .5 BTS and sell your 1 BitUSD for 2 for a grand total of 3.5 BTS, a gain of 1.5 BTS.
If you held 2 BTS then you could have had 4 BTS or a .5 BTS opportunity cost   

So the conclusion would be that the 'always win' move is to hold both at the same time...  If there is a always win position that might suggest there there is an always loose position and that the system is unbalanced.  Either that or the 'always win' move isn't truly an always win position.

So I think I found the problem with the analysis...  It is always win in terms of BTS, but if you do it in terms of USD then it isn't.   Lets run the same numbers again.

Initial Cost $2 to buy 2 BTS and enter the short/long position at the same time. 
BTS crashes... you end up with 2 BTS worth $0.50 for a total of $1  (a 50% loss or more)
BTS doubles... you end up with 3.5 BTS worth a total of $7 for an opportunity cost of $1

If instead you had gone long 2 BitUSD then you would have ended up with 4 BTS worth $2.00 (break even or less). 

So I think we need to be very careful how we calculate our profits and losses with various trading strategies because it is very easy to be deceived into thinking you have gains which are just nominal rather than real.


For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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'I don't follow... do it step by step. I buy both bts and bitusd. Now what?'
You buy 1 bitUSD and sell 1 bitUSD BTW not 'buy both  bts and bitusd.'
 

Neutral* bitAsset position with unlimited max gain.
*[neutral] Read with limited max loss of 0 i.e. riskless (for this particular asset) and at 0 cost;

0 risk and 0 cost (and do not star arguing that there is commission, so it is not 0 cost – for all practical purposes it is 0 cost) with gain potential - generally no one in his right mind offers such benefits. It is potentially a lot for nothing situation…
How one profits from this? – I do not know yet, working on it… all I know it is a situation that is so good it is not logical to exist. Close relative: lotto ticket at ~0 price and 10^-12 chance to win $100. => the lotto organizer is doing something wrong.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

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This post of Nicolai's:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4573.msg57536#msg57536
 gives me an idea for attack!


[UPDATE]
The possibility to be long and short at the same time makes possible to have neutral bitAsset position with limited max loss and unlimited max gain.
Which for all practical purposes (if/when all participants realize the above fact – i.e. soon as I am posting it online), instead of being neutral all bitAssets, all market participants will be short the asset and long the asset (at the same price).
Any price movement above the 2x the neutral price will move the total position in the unlimited gain area.

TODO:
How to benefit from such attack?  If no way found just remove the ‘attack’ status and move the argument to reason #3 (in order of importance) why BTS X price prediction model won’t work.

I don't follow... do it step by step. I buy both bts and bitusd. Now what?

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Offline bytemaster

Quote
That's not true. Gold/Oil contracts may be redeemable for gold/oil, but they usually aren't. In practice, those that are so redeemable almost never are (only industrial firms which actually needed to buy gold/oil anyway do such transactions, typically through intermediaries). Moreover, although you say "You do not buy BitUSD unless you expect BTS to have value in the future" you have not shown why. I just described a second reason why one might buy BitUSD: precisely because they feel that BTS will have a LOWER value in the future. This is usually why people buy gold contracts! Separately, you are swapping "lower" with "zero" almost randomly.

You buy BitUSD if you expect BTS to fall at reasonable rates, but not if you expect BTS to have catastrophic volatility or no value at all.   So BitUSD is only a hedge against falling BTS within the scope of a reasonable market.    BitUSD cannot hedge you against the possibility of system failure or complete loss of confidence. 

The fact that other contracts can potentially be redeemed means that assuming the counter-party is solvent and not fraudulent that you have infinite margin (assuming 100% reserve exchange).  The fact that people often settle for cash rather than take delivery is beside the point.     

In the 'slow decay' example you show there is no 'attack' it is just consistent losses by the shorts for being on the wrong side of the market.   An attack specifically aimed at causing rapid change and a short squeeze in order to justify profits is effectively the SlingShot attack.  This is a risk all shorts take, especially when books are open.   Fortunately, attempts at manipulating up the price of BitUSD does not change the real value of BTS on the blockchain and thus creates profit opportunities for shorts who compare BitUSD to real USD.   

So your attack has to be based upon manipulating the real world perception on the value of BTS relative to USD. 

Your primary argument is that rational market actors will choose to join the attack rather than fight the attack and thus the market will attack itself so-to-speak.   The thinking goes something like this....  I see the price of BitUSD rising and a short squeeze start... at the start of the short squeeze every market participant is in a race to buy so they can sell high to the shorts.   The result being that in the event of a squeeze shorts loose everything rather than just part of their position as would have been the case had the rest of the market not jumped on the opportunity to stick it to the shorts. 

So recognizing that a squeeze could happen at any time, one may choose to buy and hold BitUSD so that they can 'profit' form the eventual squeeze.   This only works if the squeeze happens in the short term and is catastrophic to the speculator if there is a slow steady growth in the value of BTS prior to the squeeze because of lost opportunity cost.

Bottom line: it works the same as any other market, once participants recognize a short squeeze in progress everyone buys in... during the squeeze BitUSD goes up in value relative to real USD.  However, what goes up in a squeeze must comes down and thus everyone who bought in the rush that wasn't covering could be caught with their pants down when the tide goes out and prices return to normal.   Thus speculating in a short squeeze is very risky, especially with low frequency trading on the blockchain and price move limits.

Conclusion: the market will expect periodic short squeezes, these squeezes can be triggered to some extent by large actors.  The most likely timing of a squeeze is after a large natural fall in BTS which magnifies the power of the manipulator who only has to tip it over while collateral is low and thus the attack is easiest.   Once again, this is just normal behavior.  People see a price fall, anticipate a potential squeeze so buy BitUSD to get ahead of it which causes a chain reaction to start the squeeze.   

However, for every individual who wants to buy at the start of the squeeze to sell at the height someone else recognizes that the safest play in this case is a short position on BitUSD with a large collateral to prevent a margin call that is executed once the squeeze is already clearly underway.  They can then wait out the squeeze and profit maximally.  This rational action works to limit the scope and potential of the squeeze because making money from shorting into a squeeze with large collateral is much less risky than attempting to time the market.   

Yes, people can attempt to push the market around, but the volatility of BitUSD will be much lower than the volatility of BTS.   Most traders will recognize that BitUSD will fluctuate around the dollar and thus know that any deviation is short-term.  Those that wish to sell BitUSD wait until it is overvalued, those that wish to buy wait until it is undervalued for the best deal and professionals trade the arbitrage on a daily basis.   


 
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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This post of Nicolai's:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4573.msg57536#msg57536
 gives me an idea for attack!


[UPDATE]
The possibility to be long and short at the same time makes possible to have neutral bitAsset position with limited max loss and unlimited max gain.
Which for all practical purposes (if/when all participants realize the above fact – i.e. soon as I am posting it online), instead of being neutral all bitAssets, all market participants will be short the asset and long the asset (at the same price).
Any price movement above the 2x the neutral price will move the total position in the unlimited gain area.

TODO:
How to benefit from such attack?  If no way found just remove the ‘attack’ status and move the argument to reason #3 (in order of importance) why BTS X price prediction model won’t work. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 10:27:45 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline tonyk

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Quote
It is still an attack. One individual or group could make this more likely to happen. I did not even get a change to explain these methods, as I am still reviewing the basics.Let's get real: You are afraid other people will read this thread, and sell their PTS, and that would mean you were wrong.

I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but when you grow up, you'll learn that, although you can "move" a conversation you don't like "away", you can't "move" reality "away". Bytemaster understand this. Good luck with the rest of middle school! !!!I hear they give extra credit for !'s !!! !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

Please elaborate on this:
Let's get real: You are afraid other people will read this thread, and sell their PTS, and that would mean you were wrong.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline MolonLabe

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I thought that, to go long BitUSD, you spent BTS to receive BitUSD. That's usually what people mean when they say they went long stocks (that they spent dollars on stocks). If the price of stocks in terms of usd has gone up, then the price of usd in terms of stock has gone down. So buying BitUSD is putting pressure on the price of BTS, not supporting it. Or have I misunderstood?
2nd way:
Buy BTS first and then use it to buy bitUSD within the BTS system.
You are wrong. Reread what I wrote earlier about who would act in the way I describe. If you aren't going to read it the first time, I don't see why I should repeat myself.

Quote
Really? I can go long an ounce of gold, and short a barrel of oil. Each of those transactions could be described as "buying some amount of USD in the future", but I would NOT then describe them as "an investment in USD". You must be saying that the BTS system will be valuable, and BTS-owners will receive a sizable quantity of fees (paid in BTS, I assume). Even if this were true, it wouldn't be a reason NOT to sell those BTS off during a collapse in value.

The difference is that BitUSD is only redeemable in BTS where as gold/oil contracts are redeemable in gold/oil (in theory).   So at the end of the day BitUSD is just a claim on BTS.  You do not buy BitUSD unless you expect BTS to have value in the future with less volatility than the collateral can support. 

So think of BitUSD as an alternative investment that is highly correlated to USD but is not USD.
That's not true. Gold/Oil contracts may be redeemable for gold/oil, but they usually aren't. In practice, those that are so redeemable almost never are (only industrial firms which actually needed to buy gold/oil anyway do such transactions, typically through intermediaries). Moreover, although you say "You do not buy BitUSD unless you expect BTS to have value in the future" you have not shown why. I just described a second reason why one might buy BitUSD: precisely because they feel that BTS will have a LOWER value in the future. This is usually why people buy gold contracts! Separately, you are swapping "lower" with "zero" almost randomly.

Manipulating the real value of BTS is like manipulating a penny stock (initially) but becomes increasingly difficult as the network grows. 
You keep saying this, yet you ignore what I write down about everyone, including BTS owners, adopting a certain profit-maximization strategy. In what I described, "network growth" is completely irrelevant.

Unfortunately the network does not know the real BTS / USD price and is operating entirely on the BTS / BitUSD price.   So to crash BTS in the BTS/BitUSD price means you must buy up a lot of BitUSD in a market where there is no one willing to short BitUSD.   So the window of attack is in the arbitrage delay between BTS/USD price changes and BTS/BitUSD price changes.  Thus it requires speed to trigger a 'false margin call' and this is why having minimum market depth and maximum price movements helps give all market participants TIME to assess the reality of the value change in BTS/USD before a chain reaction can gain speed and force shorts out of their position at a loss based upon noise rather than fundamentals. 
Assume that BitUSD exchange rate tracks the USD exchange rate perfectly, if you want. I doubt it will, but it makes no difference to what I described.

Like we said earlier, if you could require 100x margin then you would be unable to shake someone from their position, but  you expose yourself to the monopoly attack when someone buys up all of the BitUSD to force the margin call.    Having 2x margin increases the risks of the shorts, but the good news is that 2x is just the minimum margin and any short that wishes to have a defense against certain market manipulation attacks would be proactive about maintaining higher collateral than everyone else.   In time the market will learn what to expect in terms of volatility.
Cost of capital is not free. 100x collateral is permanently unworkable. Even 2x is much higher than is required today. As the attack succeeds, someone who put up 4x capital will already be halfway to the next failure...they are effectively at 2x capital.

Shorts are permanently unsafe in BitsharesX. In the real world, people would sell an asset if it were worth 10 billion dollars. They'd sell and retire. In BitsharesX if a BitAsset climbs to 10 billion BTS, and BTS is almost worthless, no one will sell. You are assuming these markets will behave the way regular markets do.

!!!This is not an ‘attack’!!!

OK – please move this discussion to something else – like ‘Miner feasibility issues on trading platforms with no real deliveries’ or even better  ‘OMG, OMG margin calls make the shorts real uncomfortable’ or whatever you want to call it.

!!!This is not an ‘attack’!!!
It is still an attack. One individual or group could make this more likely to happen. I did not even get a change to explain these methods, as I am still reviewing the basics. Let's get real: You are afraid other people will read this thread, and sell their PTS, and that would mean you were wrong.

I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but when you grow up, you'll learn that, although you can "move" a conversation you don't like "away", you can't "move" reality "away". Bytemaster understand this. Good luck with the rest of middle school! !!!I hear they give extra credit for !'s !!! !!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 09:25:20 pm by MolonLabe »