Author Topic: 111* days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?  (Read 94123 times)

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Online Brekyrself

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2014, 04:33:23 am »
As a small miner I would not mind PTS going to PoS after all 2m shares have been mined...  I just hate when my rigs sit idle and I do not see any other "coins" worth mining at the moment.

Offline bytemaster

Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2014, 03:08:52 am »
Unfortunately, there is nothing we could do to keep miners on board after a 60% price drop because miners are purchasing PTS just like everyone else, they just pay with electricity.    The only thing we could do is switch PTS to a proof-of-stake coin. 

We could try to 'talk up miners', but miners are economic actors who see that it is cheaper to get PTS by trading than mining and thus make different economic choices.

If the difficulty becomes a long term problem we can take measures to increase the transaction rate, but short of increasing voluntary transaction fees in an attempt to motivate additional miners there is nothing we could do.   It would be like asking us to stop the price of PTS from falling after the BTS-X snapshot.
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Offline NewMine

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 12:34:46 am »
No one here changed the PTS difficulty, and no one changed the algorithm by which it is determined, so I don't see how the difficulty increase can be seen as an insult to miners.  The miners are the ones who raised the difficulty anyway, because they (collectively, clearly some miners disagree...) thought it was worthwhile to invest in mining lots of PTS before the snapshot.  The current difficulty is a consequence of that community action, and slow blocks really aren't going to hurt PTS for anything for which it should be used.  I'm pretty sure no one is using it at point of sale to buy fast food anyway...

I don't think it's an insult but rather a lack of foresight into PTS mining and worth post BTS-X spinoff. While they did warn of a price drop only within the last week before the ex-date, they did not do much to incentivize people to keep mining and thus most miners walked away leaving difficulty extremely high for another 2200 blocks going forth. At this difficulty, 1-4 blocks are being solved per hour which means transaction times are slooooooooooooow. What AdamBLevine and others are saying is that Invictus didn't do much to help PTS retain its miners to avoid this problem. Slow transactions and confirmations mean less people will mine and or trade PTS.

Yes the price drop will yield value in the form of BTS-X but it was/is at great risk to the health of PTS going forward.

You could also argue that Invictus has stated their future intentions. Well, with their ever changing agreements and future DACs being far off since all focus is on BTS-x it's hard to take their intentions at face value. Especially since all we have at this point is PTS at $6.5 per and their word (one that has changed a few times up to now). This may very well change within the next weeks when a product is delivered, but it could also flop further should the exchange not work in the way it's supposed to. I certainly hope BTS-X can make it since I have my primary Altcoin investment in it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 01:48:55 am by newmine »

Offline sfinder

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 12:30:44 am »
i can live with current difficulty and 40 -50 days later the difficulty will reduce to what it should be. enjoy the lower inflation rate period for pts ecosystem
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Offline NewMine

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2014, 11:15:11 pm »
Maybe it's time to do a proof of burn into a proto-asset that actually trades on the first Bitshares chain.  Seems miners don't understand why they'd want to keep mining now that Bitshares has split off.

i stopped ming right after the snapshot. The diff increase the week before cut 2 grand on hardware in half. in 2 more weeks, it drops in half again. This will be impossible for anyone who doesn't have free power. PTS will die because of this massive diff increases. The snapshot and fork made things worse than they should have been. People were not anticipating the diff increase to be so severe. If 2600cpm gave you 1 pts a day a few weeks ago, diff increase the other week cut that that around .3 pts. Next diff increase puts you at .15. Fuck man, it is like they are trying to force people away from PTS. Which i guess makes sense but it wasn't something that was talked about. Now having all this PTS is purely a hope that BTS turns into something worthwhile, and essentially the massive price drop made all the work of mining completely worthless. If you can by a PTS share for 5-6 dollars on the 1st of march, you miss the very first fork but have BTS in everything else once you buy, you basically say "fuck you miners, you got us started and now we are ditching you." I am kind of irritated, i guess i should have been smart enough to understand that concept way before i started mining, but there were so many changes leading up the the snap shot it is just ridiculous. Now, everyone who didn't mine was able to buy massive stake in PTS to gain BTS for all the next DACs that come out. It is not like the bingo and music dacs are going to be something amazing and make any investment worth it.... It is a slap in the face, anyone who mined should have sold at $20, right when the snapshot was announced.

Well, yeah.   I had roughly 15 that I was able to sell on Cryptsy, but the other 80 got stuck on beedui.com when they decided to freeze the wallet at 20:00 local time, which I assume is because they had nfc as to when this was actually taking place, otherwise shutting off trading and withdrawing 15 hrs early makes no sense (err, well, unless you plan on taking everyone's stuff and closing the exchange).   I transferred them to beedui since there was a bid in place that was approx. 15% higher than what PTS was selling for on cryptsy.  By the time it got there (confirmations were slow), the bid was gone.  I decided to put an ask up and wait a bit and see if anyone would bite... after about an hr, I decided it was too risky to wait any longer and that's when I noticed that I could no longer withdraw my PTS.  LOL.

A lot of people here seem rather blasé about the whole situation.  Alas, I'm not loaded with money, so the $1,000 I lost actually has meaning.  There is no way in hell that those Bitshares are going to make up for what I lost... and I don't want to hear the crap about how "miners" should be informed.   The exchanges, including Cryptsy, didn't even know wtf was going on....... I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the people on this forum didn't, either.  I was planning on selling on the 27th, but I figured there might be a last second rush on the 28th from the ignorant and/or uninformed, so I held longer.  However, I still would have sold at a minimum of .023 on Cryptsy, which is a hell of a lot better than .009 or whatever it's at now.

... and, pls, none of the BS about how PTS wasn't meant to be a currency or w/e.  I ran a PTS node for 5 months, I ran a memorycoin node for a couple months, I've been posting on these forums for months.  The indifference & cavalier attitudes on display here by the ""people in the know"" sure as hell doesn't inspire me going forward.  You bet as soon as I'm able to sell those PTS that I'll do so, even if they're at .005.

I'm sorry you lost money, BTS-x and or potential gains, but it was pretty publicized when the snapshot was going to happen and for people to take all funds out of he exchanges. Multiple posts on the sub reddits and many posts here warned users of what they should do. I too don't have 100's of BTC to throw around at these speculative plays, so in that regard I feel you and hope you make money back elsewhere.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2014, 07:30:54 pm »
i'm thinking this is a great academic situation: what will the markets(both mining and exchange markets) do in this situation. There should be a huge drop in difficulty in a month, and it should eventually equalize to some level where profits slightly exceed expenses as miners turn on and off their machines (sort of what graphics cards people did with BTC right before the ASIC revolution, you actually see difficulty oscillate every adjustment). These huge and sudden drops in difficulty will do some interesting stuff to the exchange market too as the rate of inflation was cut in half.
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Offline yellowecho

Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2014, 07:10:44 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't PTS trading for a month or two at 0.013-0.015 until a couple weeks before the snapshot? So if you didn't fully capitalize on the short term spike, I imagine many miners did. PTS at 0.01 isn't that far a drop off from where it was before the snapshot spike, and now PTS has given those who rode the wave something new, the very promising Bitshares.

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Offline mint chocolate chip

Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2014, 06:58:44 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't PTS trading for a month or two at 0.013-0.015 until a couple weeks before the snapshot? So if you didn't fully capitalize on the short term spike, I imagine many miners did. PTS at 0.01 isn't that far a drop off from where it was before the snapshot spike, and now PTS has given those who rode the wave something new, the very promising Bitshares.

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 01:48:51 pm »
No one here changed the PTS difficulty, and no one changed the algorithm by which it is determined, so I don't see how the difficulty increase can be seen as an insult to miners.  The miners are the ones who raised the difficulty anyway, because they (collectively, clearly some miners disagree...) thought it was worthwhile to invest in mining lots of PTS before the snapshot.  The current difficulty is a consequence of that community action, and slow blocks really aren't going to hurt PTS for anything for which it should be used.  I'm pretty sure no one is using it at point of sale to buy fast food anyway...

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2014, 01:05:09 pm »
Maybe it's time to do a proof of burn into a proto-asset that actually trades on the first Bitshares chain.  Seems miners don't understand why they'd want to keep mining now that Bitshares has split off.

i stopped ming right after the snapshot. The diff increase the week before cut 2 grand on hardware in half. in 2 more weeks, it drops in half again. This will be impossible for anyone who doesn't have free power. PTS will die because of this massive diff increases. The snapshot and fork made things worse than they should have been. People were not anticipating the diff increase to be so severe. If 2600cpm gave you 1 pts a day a few weeks ago, diff increase the other week cut that that around .3 pts. Next diff increase puts you at .15. Fuck man, it is like they are trying to force people away from PTS. Which i guess makes sense but it wasn't something that was talked about. Now having all this PTS is purely a hope that BTS turns into something worthwhile, and essentially the massive price drop made all the work of mining completely worthless. If you can by a PTS share for 5-6 dollars on the 1st of march, you miss the very first fork but have BTS in everything else once you buy, you basically say "fuck you miners, you got us started and now we are ditching you." I am kind of irritated, i guess i should have been smart enough to understand that concept way before i started mining, but there were so many changes leading up the the snap shot it is just ridiculous. Now, everyone who didn't mine was able to buy massive stake in PTS to gain BTS for all the next DACs that come out. It is not like the bingo and music dacs are going to be something amazing and make any investment worth it.... It is a slap in the face, anyone who mined should have sold at $20, right when the snapshot was announced.

Well, yeah.   I had roughly 15 that I was able to sell on Cryptsy, but the other 80 got stuck on beedui.com when they decided to freeze the wallet at 20:00 local time, which I assume is because they had nfc as to when this was actually taking place, otherwise shutting off trading and withdrawing 15 hrs early makes no sense (err, well, unless you plan on taking everyone's stuff and closing the exchange).   I transferred them to beedui since there was a bid in place that was approx. 15% higher than what PTS was selling for on cryptsy.  By the time it got there (confirmations were slow), the bid was gone.  I decided to put an ask up and wait a bit and see if anyone would bite... after about an hr, I decided it was too risky to wait any longer and that's when I noticed that I could no longer withdraw my PTS.  LOL.

A lot of people here seem rather blasé about the whole situation.  Alas, I'm not loaded with money, so the $1,000 I lost actually has meaning.  There is no way in hell that those Bitshares are going to make up for what I lost... and I don't want to hear the crap about how "miners" should be informed.   The exchanges, including Cryptsy, didn't even know wtf was going on....... I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the people on this forum didn't, either.  I was planning on selling on the 27th, but I figured there might be a last second rush on the 28th from the ignorant and/or uninformed, so I held longer.  However, I still would have sold at a minimum of .023 on Cryptsy, which is a hell of a lot better than .009 or whatever it's at now.

... and, pls, none of the BS about how PTS wasn't meant to be a currency or w/e.  I ran a PTS node for 5 months, I ran a memorycoin node for a couple months, I've been posting on these forums for months.  The indifference & cavalier attitudes on display here by the ""people in the know"" sure as hell doesn't inspire me going forward.  You bet as soon as I'm able to sell those PTS that I'll do so, even if they're at .005.

They don't care.  Saying you want to sell your PTS means you're just a "non-believer".     Remember, mining was only the thing they asked everyone to do at the beginning of this process, once they realized they wanted to change the deal they got permission from four or five random community members who hang out on the forum and made the necessary changes.

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Offline zvs

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2014, 12:43:05 pm »
Maybe it's time to do a proof of burn into a proto-asset that actually trades on the first Bitshares chain.  Seems miners don't understand why they'd want to keep mining now that Bitshares has split off.

i stopped ming right after the snapshot. The diff increase the week before cut 2 grand on hardware in half. in 2 more weeks, it drops in half again. This will be impossible for anyone who doesn't have free power. PTS will die because of this massive diff increases. The snapshot and fork made things worse than they should have been. People were not anticipating the diff increase to be so severe. If 2600cpm gave you 1 pts a day a few weeks ago, diff increase the other week cut that that around .3 pts. Next diff increase puts you at .15. Fuck man, it is like they are trying to force people away from PTS. Which i guess makes sense but it wasn't something that was talked about. Now having all this PTS is purely a hope that BTS turns into something worthwhile, and essentially the massive price drop made all the work of mining completely worthless. If you can by a PTS share for 5-6 dollars on the 1st of march, you miss the very first fork but have BTS in everything else once you buy, you basically say "fuck you miners, you got us started and now we are ditching you." I am kind of irritated, i guess i should have been smart enough to understand that concept way before i started mining, but there were so many changes leading up the the snap shot it is just ridiculous. Now, everyone who didn't mine was able to buy massive stake in PTS to gain BTS for all the next DACs that come out. It is not like the bingo and music dacs are going to be something amazing and make any investment worth it.... It is a slap in the face, anyone who mined should have sold at $20, right when the snapshot was announced.

Well, yeah.   I had roughly 15 that I was able to sell on Cryptsy, but the other 80 got stuck on beedui.com when they decided to freeze the wallet at 20:00 local time, which I assume is because they had nfc as to when this was actually taking place, otherwise shutting off trading and withdrawing 15 hrs early makes no sense (err, well, unless you plan on taking everyone's stuff and closing the exchange).   I transferred them to beedui since there was a bid in place that was approx. 15% higher than what PTS was selling for on cryptsy.  By the time it got there (confirmations were slow), the bid was gone.  I decided to put an ask up and wait a bit and see if anyone would bite... after about an hr, I decided it was too risky to wait any longer and that's when I noticed that I could no longer withdraw my PTS.  LOL.

A lot of people here seem rather blasé about the whole situation.  Alas, I'm not loaded with money, so the $1,000 I lost actually has meaning.  There is no way in hell that those Bitshares are going to make up for what I lost... and I don't want to hear the crap about how "miners" should be informed.   The exchanges, including Cryptsy, didn't even know wtf was going on....... I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the people on this forum didn't, either.  I was planning on selling on the 27th, but I figured there might be a last second rush on the 28th from the ignorant and/or uninformed, so I held longer.  However, I still would have sold at a minimum of .023 on Cryptsy, which is a hell of a lot better than .009 or whatever it's at now.

... and, pls, none of the BS about how PTS wasn't meant to be a currency or w/e.  I ran a PTS node for 5 months, I ran a memorycoin node for a couple months, I've been posting on these forums for months.  The indifference & cavalier attitudes on display here by the ""people in the know"" sure as hell doesn't inspire me going forward.  You bet as soon as I'm able to sell those PTS that I'll do so, even if they're at .005.
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Offline fishseeds

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2014, 10:00:26 am »
Maybe it's time to do a proof of burn into a proto-asset that actually trades on the first Bitshares chain.  Seems miners don't understand why they'd want to keep mining now that Bitshares has split off.

i stopped ming right after the snapshot. The diff increase the week before cut 2 grand on hardware in half. in 2 more weeks, it drops in half again. This will be impossible for anyone who doesn't have free power. PTS will die because of this massive diff increases. The snapshot and fork made things worse than they should have been. People were not anticipating the diff increase to be so severe. If 2600cpm gave you 1 pts a day a few weeks ago, diff increase the other week cut that that around .3 pts. Next diff increase puts you at .15. Fuck man, it is like they are trying to force people away from PTS. Which i guess makes sense but it wasn't something that was talked about. Now having all this PTS is purely a hope that BTS turns into something worthwhile, and essentially the massive price drop made all the work of mining completely worthless. If you can by a PTS share for 5-6 dollars on the 1st of march, you miss the very first fork but have BTS in everything else once you buy, you basically say "fuck you miners, you got us started and now we are ditching you." I am kind of irritated, i guess i should have been smart enough to understand that concept way before i started mining, but there were so many changes leading up the the snap shot it is just ridiculous. Now, everyone who didn't mine was able to buy massive stake in PTS to gain BTS for all the next DACs that come out. It is not like the bingo and music dacs are going to be something amazing and make any investment worth it.... It is a slap in the face, anyone who mined should have sold at $20, right when the snapshot was announced.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 02:02:49 pm »
I agree with barwizi, this *is* a major problem because while you have no intention of doing anything with your stock of hundreds of thousands of PTS, it means anyone trying to use PTS as a cryptocurrency, it works worse than the majority of coins out there and the only reason is because Invictus sucked the value out of PTS without doing any sort of job explaining why someone would want it in the future.

Something like this for example https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3363.0

You solve the miners-not-caring problem by making it likely they'll have a reason to care in the future.  It would have been better if that had been articulated and incentivized before removing Bitshares from Protoshares but doing it now is better than doing it later. 

Manage. Expectations.  or hire a CEO who will.

Incidentally Daniel, are you the perm CEO at Invictus?  I was under the impression when we spoke in December that you were moving to the CTO role and bringing in someone on the business side to take over as CEO/Frontman

Did that change?
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Offline barwizi

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Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 11:19:11 am »
Actually considering PTS is not meant as a currency, confirmation times are not terribly important as it will simply increase the number of transactions included per block (grouping) while also reducing the inflation / debasement rate.   Sure it may be 'annoying', but as someone who holds a lot of PTS I see this as reducing the rate of inflation by 90% for the next month at the cost of some delays when I make a transaction.   

I am fairly sure that if you counted the 'inflation rate' as part of your transaction fees you would consider a one hour processing time a fair trade.

lol, problem is majority treat it as such.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: 42 days estimated for Difficulty to retarget. Could this kill PTS?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 07:50:35 am »
Actually considering PTS is not meant as a currency, confirmation times are not terribly important as it will simply increase the number of transactions included per block (grouping) while also reducing the inflation / debasement rate.   Sure it may be 'annoying', but as someone who holds a lot of PTS I see this as reducing the rate of inflation by 90% for the next month at the cost of some delays when I make a transaction.   

I am fairly sure that if you counted the 'inflation rate' as part of your transaction fees you would consider a one hour processing time a fair trade.
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