Author Topic: Idea to promote better the bitshares-AGS fundraising oportunity !!!  (Read 5744 times)

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Offline liondani

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Great idea! i'm on it... B


When will the counter be implemented ?


PS Consider that 58 days are remaining for the end of AGS donation period...  :P

Brian Page are you still there ?

Offline liondani

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Great idea! i'm on it... B


When will the counter be implemented ?


PS Consider that 58 days are remaining for the end of AGS donation period...  :P

Offline liondani

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My personal experience from raising two sons is that you better not treat one better than the other -- you are being watched verrrry closely!   :)

 +5% +5% +5%

hope the future DAC owners have also kids or at least...  brothers/sisters  :)

Offline Stan

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I like your thought processes, but you overlook one small thing:  The last-minute traders you would be giving your shares to are the people who bought PTS at the high right before the snapshot!

However it is true that people willing to sacrificially donate to your cause are the second most sought-after demographic  you can find.

(The first being those who are willing to die for your cause.)   :)

This comment seems like you favor PTS to AGS which seems strange to me.
Why the last minute traders who buy PTS and most probably sell them after the snapshot are considered the ones willing to die for your cause and not the ones who donate to AGS and giving all their liquidity in the hope that after a much longer period the DACs will succeed and might be able to recover their expenses?

As a parent of both PTS and AGS I must remain neutral!

Each represents a demographic group with special charming characteristics.
Developers must choose whether one group is more critical to them than the other.

My personal experience from raising two sons is that you better not treat one better than the other -- you are being watched verrrry closely!   :)

The whole purpose of giving them promotional shares is to attract their good will.  Giving one group 20% will not make them happy if you give the other group 30%.  If that's your strategy, you might as well give the group you intend to diss a mere 3%... or none at all.



Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Stan

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That makes sense only to the point that you wonder PTS is doing the same.. unless I'm missing something about the future volume of PTS being a lot more than it is now.

Right now 1PTS=4AGS so right now if you don't mind to have something that is not liquid (at least for now  ;)) ... AGS is the only option...
At the end we will have in existence 2.000.000 PTS and 2.000.000 AGS...

One question to Stan:
After the fundraising/donation AGS period, the only way to invest in future DACs more money (or if new investors want to invest on them) would be only possible via PTS (or AGS if they are liquid then...) So I assume that a good strategy for a DAC owner to make a fundraising for his DAC is to buy a lot of PTS before he announces the snapshot date (?)... and just sell them before the snapshot? Am I missing something?

That's three questions   :)

1.  After 2,000,000 PTS are in circulation the world will have to compete in the market for them for all eternity.

2.  Our original concept for PTS did assume developers would be acquiring them as a bet on value they hoped to add to the ecosystem - (a developer's biggest advantage is that she is the first to have faith in her own idea.)

3.  But the most powerful tool is that this community is now full of supporters who fully understand the need for developers to raise money by selling shares to fund development, support, and promotions.  (And the insanity of burning their supporter's seed corn in mining furnaces.)  Only a few hapless die-hards will reflexively scream "pre-mining" in this community.  That's because of our unmanned company metaphor and an understanding that most companies start by issuing their own shares to raise development funds.  That's why there are stock markets.

So, DAC developers are encouraged to honor PTS and AGS with at least 10% to gain the support of two valuable demographics who have already proven worthy to receive promotional shares.  Then they are free to sell or give away the remaining 80% in whatever way they think will best promote its business model and marketing plan. 

(Of course, they must always beware of competitors who might clone their DAC and offer a better mix to the demographic groups that matter most.)

One obviously desirable demographic group is those who are willing to directly buy shares in a specific DAC, so why shouldn't a developer honor them as well?  The first two groups laid the industry foundation, and the third group erected the factory.   Then the rest of the shares should be used to attract the one thing a DAC needs more than anything else:  customers!
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline mf-tzo

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I like your thought processes, but you overlook one small thing:  The last-minute traders you would be giving your shares to are the people who bought PTS at the high right before the snapshot!

However it is true that people willing to sacrificially donate to your cause are the second most sought-after demographic  you can find.

(The first being those who are willing to die for your cause.)   :)

This comment seems like you favor PTS to AGS which seems strange to me.
Why the last minute traders who buy PTS and most probably sell them after the snapshot are considered the ones willing to die for your cause and not the ones who donate to AGS and giving all their liquidity in the hope that after a much longer period the DACs will succeed and might be able to recover their expenses?


Offline liondani

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That makes sense only to the point that you wonder PTS is doing the same.. unless I'm missing something about the future volume of PTS being a lot more than it is now.

Right now 1PTS=4AGS so right now if you don't mind to have something that is not liquid (at least for now  ;)) ... AGS is the only option...
At the end we will have in existence 2.000.000 PTS and 2.000.000 AGS...

One question to Stan:
After the fundraising/donation AGS period, the only way to invest in future DACs more money (or if new investors want to invest on them) would be only possible via PTS (or AGS if they are liquid then...) So I assume that a good strategy for a DAC owner to make a fundraising for his DAC is to buy a lot of PTS before he announces the snapshot date (?)... and just sell them before the snapshot? Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:33:06 pm by liondani »

Offline davidpbrown

That makes sense only to the point that you wonder PTS is doing the same.. unless I'm missing something about the future volume of PTS being a lot more than it is now.
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Offline liondani

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I wonder why AGS holders would want to see more AGS holders, as surely that reduces the return on their fraction of the AGS 10% in new DACs.

You are absolutely right... or wait a minute... it seems so. It is good for all of us that I3 has as many suporters as possible (AGS donations) but then we will have all a reduced fraction of the AGS 10% in new DACs. BUT it is better to have a reduced fraction from something that will be a great succees then a bigger fraction from something is only a ... little  succees. Example: I prefer to have 10% from something that is valued 1 million dollars than 30% from something it is valued $10.000... So if we really think that I3 will attract much more AGS investors/donators in the future  then I assume the best strategy is to take (we the first insiders) the most AGSs now...  ;)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 11:27:33 am by liondani »

Offline davidpbrown

Thanks, that makes sense with my impression to date.

It seems to me then AGS then perhaps more for those minded to giving a donation and less concerned with what return they might receive. Otherwise, I wonder why AGS holders would want to see more AGS holders, as surely that reduces the return on their fraction of the AGS 10% in new DACs. If suddenly everyone moved to AGS, then less return for each holder; the only good outcome that must follow from such change would be for BitShares and I3, which is obviously in everyones interest.

I also wonder that AGS is a more solid commitment that PTS is more a solid interest than just buying into one DAC, though as noted the normal flux in price at each DAC IPO would likely set that as a good option for those with interest in particular DACs more than BitShares more widely. All good then, though I wonder if that is all correct that marketing the idea of AGS should be a different flavour to suggesting any return and more talk about what BitShares is trying to acheive and that AGS is a key way to support that effort.. which I support is exactly in line with the A being Angels.
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Offline JoeyD

So, the second part of my question still unclear though compounded from above now.. what are the relative returns on new DACs? Is it the case that a new DAC chooses to how to reward AGS and PTS, and perhaps rewarding AGS more just because they understand that commitment??
Here's how I understood it.

The social contract states that all new DACs based on the toolkits developed with the help of the PTS and AGS funds in return issue 10% or more of it's shares to each of those funds. So at least 10% to PTS-holders and 10% to AGS-holders respectively at the date of the snapshot. Where the snapshot is the closing date for the funding-round of the DAC at which moment in time a copy is made of the PTS and AGS-records and that record then becomes the base for distributing those 20%(or more) shares at the start of the new DAC.

The difficulty in assessing the relative returns is that not all PTS have been mined and not all AGS have been auctioned, so the equation changes daily. Also a fixed amount of AGS is distributed daily relative to the donations of that day, which means that if you time it right you could get an advantage via AGS compared to PTS. But keep in mind that AGS is more of a kickstarter style fundraiser, where you donate money for the cause with a chance to get an early adopter bonus in return. If you're not interested in donating, you might want to reconsider going with AGS, because it is locked to your donating wallet (private keys) and not liquid like PTS.

Since only 20% of the shares in a new DAC are reserved, that means that 80% can be distributed by other means and potentially bring you a much higher ROI, via those alternate funding options.

Probably the most prudent option is to wait till the DAC's you are interested in have launched and just buy into the ones you like. Looking at a number of recent IPOs in the crypto scene that actually looks to be one of the better ways to get the most bang for your buck, with the least amount of risk at the cost of being an early adopter or stakeholder.

You can also choose a mix of the above depending on your personal assessment.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:32:42 am by JoeyD »

Offline davidpbrown

So, the second part of my question still unclear though compounded from above now.. what are the relative returns on new DACs? Is it the case that a new DAC chooses to how to reward AGS and PTS, and perhaps rewarding AGS more just because they understand that commitment??


Edit: My second thought is that unless there is a clear stated advantage, my inclination is to stick with PTS as that supports the body PTS. If all committed investors moved to AGS, that surely would lead to issues with PTS price looking weak and the followon issue that tempts for mining support; if everyone was in PTS, what difference??..
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:03:53 am by davidpbrown »
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Offline liondani

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Being willing is sustainable as long as they don't actually have to do it.  :P

lol x 2 

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Offline Troglodactyl

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Is it possible that PTS could be in a position stronger than AGS later

In my mind in the future (after the end of fundraising) 1AGS will worth 1PTS or even more!!! And that's because the most AGS holders are 100% stronger believers of the bitshares/DACs concept then PTS holders. A percentage that hold's PTS are pure/semi speculators and not real investors of the project that will sell just a few hours before the snapshots... If you would give shares of your company (DAC) for "free"  which would you prefer most, the AGS holders or the PTS holders? Only if Bitshares concept fails PTS holders will have an "advantage" over AGS holders. Correct me please BM if you think I am partially wrong...

I like your thought processes, but you overlook one small thing:  The last-minute traders you would be giving your shares to are the people who bought PTS at the high right before the snapshot!

However it is true that people willing to sacrificially donate to your cause are the second most sought-after demographic  you can find.

(The first being those who are willing to die for your cause.)   :)
Don't think I agree with that estimate.

If they are dieing for your cause they might not be the most sustainable of demographics.

Being willing is sustainable as long as they don't actually have to do it.  :P