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Offline BldSwtTrs

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Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« on: March 19, 2014, 11:48:18 PM »

I saw that bytemaster considered makes AGS liquid. Can we have more precise informations about that (yes/no/maybe[which probability], when) so we can make better investment decisions?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 11:49:56 PM by BldSwtTrs »

Offline biophil

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 11:59:27 PM »
I'm pretty sure that invictus has unequivocally stated they will not make AGS liquid, strictly speaking. There is nothing to prevent a 3rd party from doing so. Thus, I don't think it's possible to give you a firm answer.

Uncertainty about AGS is why it's so cheap, and why I've mostly stayed out of it.

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Offline Stan

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 03:14:38 AM »
Here's what we have said:

We can't stop someone from releasing a proto-coin that maps to AGS and we can't stop the market from honoring that proto-coin instead of AGS if it chooses.  We couldn't initiate or support that ourselves without altering the value proposition on which people have been relying.  Possible exception discussed but not acted upon:  is there a way to give PTS holders a matching benefit to maintain the value proposition?

But we have also suggested that honoring a proto-family that has already honored AGS is equivalent because the AGS holders started out with shares in that family and will still have them unless they sold those rights to someone else.

Thus, the natural, gradual process of liquefaction is when new proto-coin families of DACs spin off.   BitShares X effectively liquified its portion of AGS for holders on February 28th since they can sell their stake in future DACs in that family.  If BitShares Lotto winds up serving as the prototype for a family of honorable gaming DACs then more of AGS would essentially become liquid at that time.  So eventually AGS could become mostly liquid through the sum of all proto-coin children it spawns.

If the industry eventually agrees that all the major market sectors had been spanned by previous proto-coin family spin-offs, perhaps it would make sense to just define a "Miscellaneous" family that would effectively liquify everything else at that time.  Perhaps someday someone will.

But by then, will anybody really care?

As far as "uncertainty about AGS", the only uncertainty is whether or when it might incrementally become more liquid - which should hardly be a deterrent.   :)

« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:25:01 AM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline etherbroker

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 05:59:49 AM »
Its like saying I can't trade my property with someone else.  Of course I can.

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Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 12:25:32 PM »
Here's what we have said:

We can't stop someone from releasing a proto-coin that maps to AGS and we can't stop the market from honoring that proto-coin instead of AGS if it chooses.  We couldn't initiate or support that ourselves without altering the value proposition on which people have been relying.  Possible exception discussed but not acted upon:  is there a way to give PTS holders a matching benefit to maintain the value proposition?

But we have also suggested that honoring a proto-family that has already honored AGS is equivalent because the AGS holders started out with shares in that family and will still have them unless they sold those rights to someone else.

Thus, the natural, gradual process of liquefaction is when new proto-coin families of DACs spin off.   BitShares X effectively liquified its portion of AGS for holders on February 28th since they can sell their stake in future DACs in that family.  If BitShares Lotto winds up serving as the prototype for a family of honorable gaming DACs then more of AGS would essentially become liquid at that time.  So eventually AGS could become mostly liquid through the sum of all proto-coin children it spawns.

If the industry eventually agrees that all the major market sectors had been spanned by previous proto-coin family spin-offs, perhaps it would make sense to just define a "Miscellaneous" family that would effectively liquify everything else at that time.  Perhaps someday someone will.

But by then, will anybody really care?

As far as "uncertainty about AGS", the only uncertainty is whether or when it might incrementally become more liquid - which should hardly be a deterrent.   :)
Thanks for that clarification.

Offline biophil

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 01:22:59 PM »
Its like saying I can't trade my property with someone else.  Of course I can.

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If I sell you my house, you can change the locks.

If I sell you my AGS donation keys, you can't prove I don't still have a copy of the keys. In essence, you can't change the locks.

Offline dannotestein

Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 02:03:10 PM »
Its like saying I can't trade my property with someone else.  Of course I can.

Sent using Tapatalk

If I sell you my house, you can change the locks.

If I sell you my AGS donation keys, you can't prove I don't still have a copy of the keys. In essence, you can't change the locks.
I think that's a good analogy to the current situation.

However, as a personal "holder" of AGS (not as an Invictus employee), my feeling is that recognition of AGS will inevitably move to a liquid form, just given the entrepreneurial nature of our community. I suspect this will happen not long after the AGS donation phase is completed. Bear in my mine, this is just my personal opinion (and desire, since I feel it will raise the value of AGS).
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Offline unimercio

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 03:03:17 PM »
Its like saying I can't trade my property with someone else.  Of course I can.

Sent using Tapatalk

If I sell you my house, you can change the locks.

If I sell you my AGS donation keys, you can't prove I don't still have a copy of the keys. In essence, you can't change the locks.
I think that's a good analogy to the current situation.

However, as a personal "holder" of AGS (not as an Invictus employee), my feeling is that recognition of AGS will inevitably move to a liquid form, just given the entrepreneurial nature of our community. I suspect this will happen not long after the AGS donation phase is completed. Bear in my mine, this is just my personal opinion (and desire, since I feel it will raise the value of AGS).

 +5% +5% +5% agreed, "necessity is the mother of invention".   AGS and the greater community are best served with liquidity. I can't imagine a creative safe transfer of AGS is far off.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2014, 03:25:10 PM »
Its like saying I can't trade my property with someone else.  Of course I can.

Sent using Tapatalk

If I sell you my house, you can change the locks.

If I sell you my AGS donation keys, you can't prove I don't still have a copy of the keys. In essence, you can't change the locks.
I think that's a good analogy to the current situation.

However, as a personal "holder" of AGS (not as an Invictus employee), my feeling is that recognition of AGS will inevitably move to a liquid form, just given the entrepreneurial nature of our community. I suspect this will happen not long after the AGS donation phase is completed. Bear in my mine, this is just my personal opinion (and desire, since I feel it will raise the value of AGS).

 +5% +5% +5% agreed, "necessity is the mother of invention".   AGS and the greater community are best served with liquidity. I can't imagine a creative safe transfer of AGS is far off.

Ah, yes.  The Eternal Innovator's Dilemma: 

"You are altering our agreement!" vs. "Why can't you make it do this?" 

As Dr McCoy once grumbled, "Engineers!  They love to change things!" 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTbwlqX6Rmg

« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:37:42 PM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline jae208

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2014, 06:09:19 AM »
I saw that bytemaster considered makes AGS liquid. Can we have more precise informations about that (yes/no/maybe[which probability], when) so we can make better investment decisions?

The purpose of AGS was so that Invictus could could raise funds to create and expand the crypto-equity industry. That was the purpose of PTS too but that didn't go according to plan. The funds are being spent to further improve the industry and to hire talent among other things to bring about new DACS. You can view how the funds are being spent http://www1.agsexplorer.com under fund usage for BTC and PTS donations.

As has been said already once Bitshares X or Bitshares Lotto is release the shares you receive from there will be your AGS liquidity. Why? Well if you own AGS you own Bitshares X, Lotto, Mas and many other DACS to come.  8)
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Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 04:56:51 PM »
I don't care much about liquidity, but is there a way to make an AGS wallet so I can extract all the AGS out of my Electrum and PTS wallet? For my own peace of mind, I would like to be able to see my AGS.

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2014, 11:28:35 PM »
I don't care much about liquidity, but is there a way to make an AGS wallet so I can extract all the AGS out of my Electrum and PTS wallet? For my own peace of mind, I would like to be able to see my AGS.

I would like that too. Basically it will be a wallet which will keep a copy of the relevant private keys.

AGS is going for some 0.0036 BTC these days. Thats almost a third of PTS market price and doesn't make much sense with just the liquidity argument. I think PTS is overpriced due to the limited supply - mined PTS hitting the market are very small due to the high difficulty, while a lot of PTS has been sucked from the market due to AGS donation.



Offline donkeypong

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Re: Can Invictus confirm/deny it will make AGS liquid one day?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 05:39:02 AM »
I don't care much about liquidity, but is there a way to make an AGS wallet so I can extract all the AGS out of my Electrum and PTS wallet? For my own peace of mind, I would like to be able to see my AGS.

AGS is going for some 0.0036 BTC these days. That's almost a third of PTS market price and doesn't make much sense with just the liquidity argument. I think PTS is overpriced due to the limited supply - mined PTS hitting the market are very small due to the high difficulty, while a lot of PTS has been sucked from the market due to AGS donation.

I hold both PTS and AGS. I think many people still don't trust the idea of handing over money in exchange for a promise that is not liquid. And maybe they have not taken the time to research Bitshares and realize how trustworthy these people are. PTS is available from mining and on exchanges. You can sell it. I think it's just more tangible and more market-tested in peoples' minds. I agree with you that AGS is undervalued. But given the promising DACs coming online over the next few months, I would say both PTS and AGS are tremendously undervalued. Great buying opportunity!

 

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