Author Topic: MaidSafe IPO on Mastercoin  (Read 100584 times)

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Offline tonyk

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Actually my response would have been:
“Secure your existence first. This can be done by lunching as soon as possible, caring existent product/s. i.e. NXT
BTSX seems great, but you better find a way to have some income while waiting. When Bitshares product comes to life, simply be prepared to add it to the exchange. “

‘You seem to think I don't like Bitshares’
No actually I feel the same tough love for them as you do, in many occasions much tougher.  Most of the time, I think you speak my mind, just in better English. Your post regarding Maidsafe IPO is a clear exception though. But it is not here nor there.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Did you advise them for Bitshare products inclusion or against? After such shares become available off course.

Loaded question  ???

I told them to not put all their eggs in one basket and to be a solution agnostic platform that would let them be friends and provide exchange services between all the protocols that seem worthwhile.

You seem to think I don't like Bitshares, why would you think that?   I just don't like that every self imposed deadline has been blown and now we've put all our eggs in the DPOS basket which might work but might just as easily have a horrible glaring flaw that could not be foreseen because nobody has done it before.  I would rather have launched the products as described (Keyhotee and Bitshares) then worked on obsoleting mining in subsequent rounds of innovation.   

Bitshares is not being excluded or conspired against by anyone, there just isn't much to talk about and what there IS to talk about has been very poorly articulated by Invictus, mostly buried in these echo-chamber forums.  When they have a great product and somehow nobody is including them in their exchange, then you can cry conspiracy.  Until then the only people you should be complaining to are invictus for not having a product to even consider for inclusion.
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Offline liondani

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Did you advise them for Bitshare products inclusion or against? After such shares become available off course.

Loaded question  ???

Offline tonyk

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Adam when do you ‘bithause’ guys intend to list the Bitshares products on the exchange? Do you have a date already?

What bitshares products?  Seems like they need to actually release before they can be included on an exchange.

On another note, I'm not a "bithaus guy" I'm not and have never been affiliated with bithaus outside of them asking me for investment and advice.  I said no on investment and yes on advice.

Did you advise them for Bitshare products inclusion or against? After such shares become available off course.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 11:43:56 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

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There were rumors floating around that some MtGox coins were used to purchase MaidSafe coins. If that rumor had any truth to it then it would explain the situation, otherwise I cannot explain the market behavior.

The coins that supposed was GOX coins was sent from a bitstamp address...

Offline AdamBLevine

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Adam when do you ‘bithause’ guys intend to list the Bitshares products on the exchange? Do you have a date already?

What bitshares products?  Seems like they need to actually release before they can be included on an exchange.

On another note, I'm not a "bithaus guy" I'm not and have never been affiliated with bithaus outside of them asking me for investment and advice.  I said no on investment and yes on advice.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline luckybit

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Honestly this seems like a normal market reaction to a too-concentrated launch on a product that most people do not understand.  People are feeling like they made a bad decision, but it's just those folks who didn't really understand what they were buying in the first place and just wanted to not miss out.

Alternatively, if you were holding MSC since august as many of the big buyers surely were, selling below the .2BTC +40% rate given during the crowdsale is very much not at a loss.  Their cost basis on the MSC was .01BTC when BTC was worth under $200, and then they really didnt have a choice but to sit since MSC hasn't even been sendable without major risk much less included on an exchange.

I anticipate the price will come back up to around the crowdsale rate fairly soon once the folks who are scared divest themselves and the price will go up as maidsafe develops their product in public over the next few months leading up to launch.   If they don't deliver on the platform, the tokens will be worthless.
+5%

I agree. It's probably being dumped by the people who got too many and that's a good time to buy them. Sure we shouldn't have bought in at the IPO but it's not making sense to me why people would sell below IPO price unless a lot of the coin were stolen. I suppose it could also be a legitimate panic sale but I would think that investors smart enough to invest in something like MaidSafe would know to take the long term investor view.

There were rumors floating around that some MtGox coins were used to purchase MaidSafe coins. If that rumor had any truth to it then it would explain the situation, otherwise I cannot explain the market behavior.

At the same time I'm not concerned with it either. It's going to take 6 months to a year before I start paying close attention to the price. What matters to me is what their product looks like at launch and what apps are running on it. If it works as intended then Safecoin will have some value.


 
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Offline sschechter

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BTSX: sschechter
PTS: PvBUyPrDRkJLVXZfvWjdudRtQgv1Fcy5Qe

Offline tonyk

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Adam when do you ‘bithause’ guys intend to list the Bitshares products on the exchange? Do you have a date already?
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Honestly this seems like a normal market reaction to a too-concentrated launch on a product that most people do not understand.  People are feeling like they made a bad decision, but it's just those folks who didn't really understand what they were buying in the first place and just wanted to not miss out.

Alternatively, if you were holding MSC since august as many of the big buyers surely were, selling below the .2BTC +40% rate given during the crowdsale is very much not at a loss.  Their cost basis on the MSC was .01BTC when BTC was worth under $200, and then they really didnt have a choice but to sit since MSC hasn't even been sendable without major risk much less included on an exchange.

I anticipate the price will come back up to around the crowdsale rate fairly soon once the folks who are scared divest themselves and the price will go up as maidsafe develops their product in public over the next few months leading up to launch.   If they don't deliver on the platform, the tokens will be worthless.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline tonyk

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...via-mastercoin investors...
You mean the via-mastercoin investor (as in one person)... ;)
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

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Until the last days all bitcoins ivestors was the only loosers...
Right now even the via-mastercoin investors to madesaif coins are on the negative side !
1 maidsafe coin = 0.000027 BTC  https://masterxchange.com/market.php?currency=maid , that means that the maidsafe buyers now will get the coins cheaper even from the "lucky" mastercoin investors at IPO time...
I am one of them! (toast please don't laugh)

Offline luckybit

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If they make decisions based around ideology rather than rationality, then they might get the economics wrong. If they focus on success more than on ideology then its more likely they can be profitable.

Agreed. It seems like the evidence points to them not budging at all, so far. Not because of ideological tradeoffs, but because of deliberate, willingful ignorance. Of course I hope they can realize their mistake and then honor safecoin holders who held at a time when it showed support, even though it didn't actually do anything, just so their project can go on and work. I'll buy in when they can prove they can make the incentive model work. That's the hard part.

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For example it might require some centralization for things to scale. Of course it's not ideologically acceptable to have centralization. What decision will be made? To follow ideology or go for the sure profit?

Let's be clear, there was never a discussion about centralization and profit is talked about in the context of the DAC metaphor where it always translates to dividends for people who hold the token and value-adding trades for everyone who uses the dac's services.

When I mentioned centralization, it's because I would expect the farmers who generate the resources to centralize. In some ways if they do centralize it could result in massive benefits in terms of cost reduction and scale. Like if you're talking about bandwidth then of course larger ISPs do have advantages. The same with data storage but to a much lesser extent.

Like for example if somehow Google decided to provide Internet access at 1 Gbit to the entire USA then I could see it working out.  Under the current situation with upload speeds dramatically capped, and Internet speeds also capped, I just don't see how you'd be able to solve the problem even if the incentives were in place because the ISP's would still rate limit the users.

With Bitcoin mining the GPU manufacturers aren't limiting the amount of GPU's you can buy to mine with, but they could because they make the chips. ASIC manufacturers have even more of this power, they could delay their own product and mine with it while it's in testing.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 12:36:30 am by luckybit »
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Offline toast

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If they make decisions based around ideology rather than rationality, then they might get the economics wrong. If they focus on success more than on ideology then its more likely they can be profitable.

Agreed. It seems like the evidence points to them not budging at all, so far. Not because of ideological tradeoffs, but because of deliberate, willingful ignorance. Of course I hope they can realize their mistake and then honor safecoin holders who held at a time when it showed support, even though it didn't actually do anything, just so their project can go on and work. I'll buy in when they can prove they can make the incentive model work. That's the hard part.

Quote
For example it might require some centralization for things to scale. Of course it's not ideologically acceptable to have centralization. What decision will be made? To follow ideology or go for the sure profit?

Let's be clear, there was never a discussion about centralization and profit is talked about in the context of the DAC metaphor where it always translates to dividends for people who hold the token and value-adding trades for everyone who uses the dac's services.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline luckybit

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Great analogy, the flaw is that it's not NintendoCoins but RareWareCoins and BlizzardCoins that are needed to operate the machine. Figuring out how to make the Nintendo machine use coins hasn't worked because people always jailbreak the Nintendo for access to the subscription game services they run on it. What is Nintendo to do in this situation?

Nintendo has to make sure that the primary coin used for resources on their cloud is the Nintendo coin. To do this it would be similar to how in Ethereum you have to buy Ethers, and in the Master protocol you have to buy Mastercoin tokens. If there are two tokens then the primary token is still the Nintendo token and all other tokens would have to be measured in Nintendo tokens as the measure of value.

Whether or not it's going to work like the analogy is something no one can know because we don't know what decisions the human beings in charge of the design will make. If they make decisions based around ideology rather than rationality, then they might get the economics wrong. If they focus on success more than on ideology then its more likely they can be profitable.

For example the reason to produce the platform might be ideological. To provide privacy, to provide decentralized cloud storage, to provide incentive to decentralize the Internet. These are all very noble goals. Unfortunately having noble goals doesn't always translate into success because often to reach success ideology has to be set aside for what works in practice, according to science, and sometimes it's very counter intuitive.

For example it might require some centralization for things to scale. Of course it's not ideologically acceptable to have centralization. What decision will be made? To follow ideology or go for the sure profit? Ideologically driven organizations can be successful when they put profit ahead of ideology, but when they put ideology ahead of profit it can cause the entire business to fall under.

I don't know what decisions will be made. I do think it's possible to take a very scientific ideologically agnostic approach (ends justify the means) and make a very profitable DAC out of MaidSafe. I don't know whether it's possible to do that and keep it decentralized.

-edit-

If we think of resources like we think of land, and if you're familiar with geolibertarianism or Georgism, then the Safecoins can be used to tax consumers on the use of resources (land).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism
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Geolibertarians consider land to be the common property of all humankind. They say that private property is derived from an individual's right to the fruits of their labor. Since land was not created by anyone's labor, it cannot be rightfully owned. Thus, geolibertarians recognize a right to secure possession of land (land tenure), on the condition that the full rental value be paid to the community. This, they say, has the effect of both giving back the value that belongs to the community and encouraging landholders to only use as much land as they need, leaving unneeded land for others.[4]

Data is like land. It's not owned by anyone and we all consume it as a function of being human. The primary motivation of the SAFE Project is to preserve the public data. Private data on the other hand is like private property or private pieces of land and as a result there is a tax to pay. The tax is paid in Safecoins.

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Thomas Paine's assertion in Agrarian Justice that "Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

These are my own interpretations of the motivations and intentions of the SAFE Project. It's probably premature for me to even make claims like that but I also don't think they just are blindly creating their economics. They do seem to have some philosophical understanding, and the design of MaidSafe seems to be intentionally heterarchical in some places (Proof of Resource). I think it's just a very difficult project to get right, and the only approach which will work requires a lot of experimentation, competition, until a business model is perfected.

An junk data attack for example could also be seen as a pollution attack on the land. If you pollute the land with trash then the value of the land goes down for everyone and future generations because land in this case represents the resources of the network.

I hope that metaphor helps to think about what the SAFE Project is trying to do. They are trying to free the land itself from centralized control it's under now. It's likely that if team MaidSafe messes up then another team will be developing the code and can fork it. Expect to see forks just as Bitcoin was forked. Eventually someone will get it right.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 04:00:10 pm by luckybit »
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