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Offline Empirical1

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Airdrop - Food for thought.
« on: April 13, 2014, 12:44:27 PM »

+- A month ago, Auroracoin's high was $800 million. Today?... It's worth $1.3 million. - A 99.8% shareholder loss.

+- A month ago, Stan excitedly drew our attention to -

Have you guys noticed the theory behind SiliconValleyCoin?

They are doing a "helicopter air-drop" of their currency into certain "zip" mailing codes in Silicon Valley under the theory that it directs their shares into the hands of a demographic more likely to be good supporters of their currency.

Quote
This coin is Premined 50%. Silicon Valley Coin will serve as a bridge between Silicon Valley innovation and the Crypto Community effectively by distributing our premined coins to certain zip codes surrounding the big tech companies of Silicon Valley. The distribution of our coins to these zip codes will commence on April 25, 2014.




+- A month ago, SiliconValleyCoin's high was $20 million. Today?... It's worth $4 417. (Also a 99.8% shareholder loss.)

_____

+- A month ago, Blackcoin was worth $250 000. With no airdrop and one clone-able new idea.  Today?... They just overtook Bitshares-PTS. (*BC is volatile and I don't expect it to hold just making a point.)


« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:26:02 PM by Empirical1 »

Offline CLains

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2014, 01:07:56 PM »
Faircoin is doing good as well. Both Faircoin and Blackcoin have monopoly on the multipool idea afaik.

The idea of an airdrop is often to make a coin liquid before the drop. I think that's one of the mistakes.
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2014, 01:41:55 PM »
Not knowing those coins – are you saying they have tanked because of the airdrop.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2014, 02:37:53 PM »
Not knowing those coins – are you saying they have tanked because of the airdrop.

SpainCoin achieved a high of $80 million and is now $20 000...  (99.9% Shareholder loss)
MazaCoin achieved a high of $6 million and is now $140 000...  (97.5% Shareholder loss)

Perhaps. It could be some evidence that targeted airdrops are over-valued/over-rated.






« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:03:54 PM by Empirical1 »

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2014, 05:03:10 PM »
I agree to an extent. I think that the reason for airdrops not working is simply the fact that people who stand to benefit from an airdrop don't actually want to enter the crypto-equity space. I see airdrops being very successful in the long term as more people see the benefit of crypto equity and what bitshares is doing. I think there are going to be several regional bitshares x banks due to this airdrop phenomenon.

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 05:37:05 PM »
I think that the current airdrops are failing because there are not well planned.
In order for the airdrop of a country coin to succeed I think that the devs will need to convience their investors for a long time (as Invictus is doing) that the intention is not for people to dump the coins when they receive it.
In order to do that you need to allocate i.e. x amount to investors who will fund the development like AGS style and will most likely not dump their coins and x amount to give away for free to the citizens and the merchants of the country.

I don't think there is any value if you promise to give away coins to people who have never heard of cryptocurrencies. The devs who do country coins airdrops should find one by one merchants and educate them first, help them istall any application they need give them shares of the future coin which will be able to claim at the end of the project.

I think that these kind of country DACs should be formed worldwide. It is not easy, it takes a lot of people in every country to get involved but it is not impossible...

I have imagined a future with many different country coins, that many merchants use in every country and all these coins are traded in Bitshares X. I think then we would have achieved the desired decentralisation of crypto currencies.

Offline luckybit

Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2014, 06:22:38 PM »
+- A month ago, Auroracoin's high was $800 million. Today?... It's worth $1.3 million. - A 99.8% shareholder loss.

+- A month ago, Stan excitedly drew our attention to -

Have you guys noticed the theory behind SiliconValleyCoin?

They are doing a "helicopter air-drop" of their currency into certain "zip" mailing codes in Silicon Valley under the theory that it directs their shares into the hands of a demographic more likely to be good supporters of their currency.

Quote
This coin is Premined 50%. Silicon Valley Coin will serve as a bridge between Silicon Valley innovation and the Crypto Community effectively by distributing our premined coins to certain zip codes surrounding the big tech companies of Silicon Valley. The distribution of our coins to these zip codes will commence on April 25, 2014.




+- A month ago, SiliconValleyCoin's high was $20 million. Today?... It's worth $4 417. (Also a 99.8% shareholder loss.)

_____

+- A month ago, Blackcoin was worth $250 000. With no airdrop and one clone-able new idea.  Today?... They just overtook Bitshares-PTS. (*BC is volatile and I don't expect it to hold just making a point.)

I mentioned that Bitshares should follow the Blackcoin model. I think the Blackcoin model is something which would work great to market to miners and said so before Blackcoin became "cool".

People are holding onto blackcoins because it's a Proof of Stake coin which can act as a better store of value than Bitcoin. It's a way to weather the storm as Bitcoin prices are falling. This is not going to last forever though because if Bitcoin prices are rising you can expect people to sell blackcoins because the underlying technology of Blackcoin isn't much better than Bitcoin.

I think Bitshares should implement the Blackcoin model ASAP, as soon as it's liquid and the technology can be said to work. Bitshares will be like Blackcoin only it's far less likely anyone is going to ever sell Bitshares to cash when Bitcoin is going up because they don't have to with BitUSD or BitBTC.

I'm not against the idea of an airdrop but I think an airdrop should be more for building long term strategic alliances via AGS while distribution of BTS should be from the Blackcoin model and other innovative ideas which can be built on top of that model. Blackcoin is proven to be successful as a business model for pumping, and it's dump resistant.

But that dump resistance is limited because as a technology it's not actually the best. If Bitshares is the best and is made so that it's also dump resistant then as Bitcoin prices go up and down people will have to store their savings in Bitshares.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 06:25:27 PM by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2014, 06:29:44 PM »
I think that the current airdrops are failing because there are not well planned.
In order for the airdrop of a country coin to succeed I think that the devs will need to convience their investors for a long time (as Invictus is doing) that the intention is not for people to dump the coins when they receive it.
In order to do that you need to allocate i.e. x amount to investors who will fund the development like AGS style and will most likely not dump their coins and x amount to give away for free to the citizens and the merchants of the country.

I don't think there is any value if you promise to give away coins to people who have never heard of cryptocurrencies. The devs who do country coins airdrops should find one by one merchants and educate them first, help them istall any application they need give them shares of the future coin which will be able to claim at the end of the project.

I think that these kind of country DACs should be formed worldwide. It is not easy, it takes a lot of people in every country to get involved but it is not impossible...

I have imagined a future with many different country coins, that many merchants use in every country and all these coins are traded in Bitshares X. I think then we would have achieved the desired decentralisation of crypto currencies.

This is why I said the focus should be on social entrepreneurs and others who actually might want to use the technology but don't know what it is. A lot of people are looking for something.

I also think that giving AGS is better for endowments. It should not be liquid when you give it to them so they can't sell it. The time in which it becomes liquid should also be different for each of them so the vesting period should be random.

I suggest make it out of AGS so that they'll get something liquid as different DACs are complete. If the dividends actually work as intended people will learn quickly that you don't want to sell all your crypto equity early on. I think for the most part people are figuring that out right now with Bitcoin so it wont be hard to make such a case that these are long term investments. Market it as crypto equity not crypto currency and convince people it's for savings.

Not knowing those coins – are you saying they have tanked because of the airdrop.

SpainCoin achieved a high of $80 million and is now $20 000...  (99.9% Shareholder loss)
MazaCoin achieved a high of $6 million and is now $140 000...  (97.5% Shareholder loss)

Perhaps. It could be some evidence that targeted airdrops are over-valued/over-rated.




Those airdrops weren't targeted. That is the problem.

You cannot target whole nations at a time and it's usually not a good idea to just throw coins at people and expect it to help. People must be about entrepreneurship and while they might not know the technology, if they know what they want to do then someone can help them use the technology to do it.

That is why I said use airdrops to promote strategic alliances. This way the purpose of it isn't just marketing or to pump up the price like people here are thinking but to actually widen the community of active participants.

The actual goal should be to get more people on this forum. As people join the forum you can measure the success and there should be a social entrepreneurship section of the forum where people can discuss how to turn social businesses and non profits into DACs. It's not enough for us to make some Charity and Lotto DAC when we can invite and engage all sorts of non-profits everywhere to become DACs because it might be in their long term interest as an organization to do so.

Explain it right and they won't rush to sell their crypto-equity.

Explain it wrong, just drop to anyone and you'll air drop to drug addicts, criminals, people who only want a quick buck. The goal here should not be merely to get rich off Bitshares, but to bootstrap a new industry.

If you create the new industry you're likely to get rich, but all the people saying get rich first and then give to charity aren't seeing the whole point behind the strategy.

You have to build a community before you can create an industry.

No matter how smart we are, if we are only 6000 people we will not be able to do very much compared to millions of social entrepreneurs. Get those millions of social entrepreneurs to hear about Bitshares and even if you get 100,000 of them to register on this forum that would be enough to make an industry.

Offer crypto equity via an airdrop to registered entrepreneurs. Whether they have to register via Facebook or on this forum it should be a process where they are shown to be real humans and not all one person. It should also be known when real people claim their crypto-equity, so I suggest using Facebook or Linkedin as login. Also try to check to see that they are actually volunteers for something or involved in social entrepreneurship.



An industry requires entrepreneurs. Auroracoin didn't court entrepreneurs, they just dropped. Long term value comes from goods and services, from the faith of the community, and from solving social ills, if you do that then people start to pay attention to you.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 06:48:55 PM by luckybit »
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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2014, 07:03:08 PM »
+5% for an outstanding explanation
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Offline Empirical1

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2014, 08:56:16 PM »

This is why I said the focus should be on social entrepreneurs and others who actually might want to use the technology but don't know what it is...

That is why I said use airdrops to promote strategic alliances.

6000 people we will not be able to do very much compared to millions of social entrepreneurs. Get those millions of social entrepreneurs to hear about Bitshares...

Offer crypto equity via an airdrop to registered entrepreneurs...

An industry requires entrepreneurs. Auroracoin didn't court entrepreneurs...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrepreneurship

Quote
Entrepreneurship is the process of identifying and starting a business venture, sourcing and organizing the required resources and taking both the risks and rewards associated with the venture

To me strategic partnerships are where people contribute capital/work/ideas to gain equity.

If you build a good product & you promote it well, the customers will come rapidly.

In the real world I can't think of many success stories where a company promoted their product by giving away free equity in the valuable underlying company. Personally I think the evidence is starting to show that the world works the same in the crypto-economy.

With 98%+ average shareholder losses from their highs, experienced by coins that have sought to give away 50% of their equity for free - I for one am fairly certain that that a clone which gave away 100% equity away for free is not the threat some scaremongers are attempting to make out.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 09:13:06 PM by Empirical1 »

Offline luckybit

Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2014, 09:39:10 PM »

This is why I said the focus should be on social entrepreneurs and others who actually might want to use the technology but don't know what it is...

That is why I said use airdrops to promote strategic alliances.

6000 people we will not be able to do very much compared to millions of social entrepreneurs. Get those millions of social entrepreneurs to hear about Bitshares...

Offer crypto equity via an airdrop to registered entrepreneurs...

An industry requires entrepreneurs. Auroracoin didn't court entrepreneurs...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrepreneurship

Quote
Entrepreneurship is the process of identifying and starting a business venture, sourcing and organizing the required resources and taking both the risks and rewards associated with the venture

To me strategic partnerships are where people contribute capital/work/ideas to gain equity.

If you build a good product & you promote it well, the customers will come rapidly.
You still don't get it. Do you want to build a product or bootstrap an industry?
What Bitcoin has done was possible only because you had tens of thousands of early adopters mining. Those early miners who essentially got equity for nearly free then had to work really hard to increase the value of their equity otherwise they would be mining at a loss.

Proof of Work helped a lot when people could mine with CPUs and GPUs. ASICs ruined the distribution model of Proof of Work but now there are many entrepreneurs who have started businesses and even pay their employees in Bitcoin.

To create an ecosystem you need community, collaboration and strategic alliances. Microsoft had a strategic alliance with Intel the chip maker. Everyone who purchased a computer got a free copy of Microsoft Windows 95. Personal computers were given away to schools for free by Apple. This is what created the initial alliances between the personal computer, the Internet, academia, and more.

While these people did not necessarily have shares in Microsoft for example it's highly likely that Microsoft did give some of its shares in exchange for certain alliances. It's not like we know why people chose Microsoft products over other products.

In the real world I can't think of many success stories where a company promoted their product by giving away free equity in the valuable underlying company. Personally I think the evidence is starting to show that the world works the same in the crypto-economy.
We are dealing with the digital world where your product can be forked. It's all about winning stakeholders and building community. If you build a big enough community of entrepreneurs that is your network effect. That is the only reason Bitcoin, Litecoin and Dogecoin do well. You have to actually win the social entrepreneurs above all else because they are the only kind of entrepreneur likely to understand what we are doing. Traditionally entrepreneurs don't understand why a DAC is needed because they aren't activists and aren't trying to do anything which is truly disruptive most of the time because if they did they might not get as much VC funding from Wall Street.
 
With 98%+ average shareholder losses from their highs, experienced by coins that have sought to give away 50% of their equity for free - I for one am fairly certain that that a clone which gave away 100% equity away for free is not the threat some scaremongers are attempting to make out.

I never said give away 50% like that. That would be a very stupid way to do it and I've always said just blindly airdropping (carpet bombing) is not as effective as using targeted airdropping (heat seeking missiles).

Mastercoin gained a lot of it's value because the giveaways were very generous. I was giving away 0.1-0.5 MSC typically. Some people would probably think just to cash it out and get $20 or whatever it was worth at the time but due to the marketing the majority of people held onto it at least until stuff like Counterparty came along.

The purpose of using equity to form strategic alliances is to build a community of social entrepreneurs. These are the people who will actually make or use the DACs in the long run and these are the people who will bring the best ideas on what to do with the capital should the time come that any of us do get rich.

A few examples of social entrepreneurship so you can see the difference
Quote
Social entrepreneurship is the process of pursuing innovative solutions to social problems. More specifically, social entrepreneurs adopt a mission to create and sustain social value. They pursue opportunities to serve this mission, while continuously adapting and learning. They draw upon appropriate thinking in both the business and nonprofit worlds and operate in all kinds of organizations: large and small; new and old; religious and secular; nonprofit, for-profit, and hybrid.[1]
Business entrepreneurs typically measure performance in profit and return, but social entrepreneurs also take into account a positive return to society. Social entrepreneurship typically furthers broad social, cultural, and environmental goals and is commonly associated with the voluntary and not-for-profit sectors.[2] Profit can at times also be a consideration for certain companies or other enterprises.
Social entrepreneurship practiced in a world or international context is called international social entrepreneurship.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship

In my opinion there should be a social entrepreneurship summit in the model of what the Gates Foundation is doing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/devinthorpe/2012/09/18/calling-all-social-entrepreneurs/

Invite social entrepreneurs to the summit. Give them free equity in person, form strategic alliances and connections at the summit. Do the same for conferences and seminars which are more specialized.

Why do I say focus on the social entrepreneuership sector? We have millions of trained highly educated social workers around the globe. Social work does not pay very much money, is not very efficient, is not technologically very sophisticated, and there is a lot of room for improvement in this sector. Most of the social work is government funded and non profit.

Social entrepreneurs bring private sector "magic" into the public sector. This is provide competition to the public sector in a way which either forces the public sector to adopt better technology or the private sector will solve the problem on it's own.

But I don't think you can ignore social problems while you get rich and think you'll have community support. To get and maintain community support you have to actually support the community. If you can do it in a sustainable and profitable way where the initial stakeholders can gain wealth while they support their community or pursue their causes then you'll have billions of dollars flow into this space.

If you can do philantropy better than the Gates Foundation by creating a DAC for instance which helps philantrophists then why not? You'd help more people with greater efficiency and less cost.  If your technology really is that good and it's proven on the international stage then at worst you'll get good press and at best then you'll have international stakeholders. How else are you supposed to reach overseas into the global community if you're only thinking about Wall Street and Silicon Valley?

If you're thinking global then you have to think about social entrepreneurship.


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Offline luckybit

Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2014, 09:48:04 PM »
This is very important to remember. If you're getting rich while everyone around you is losing their jobs, homeless, and getting poor, those people someday will see these forum posts of ours and will not respect what we built.

So it's extremely important in my opinion, critical in fact, that social entrepreneurship be embraced from the start. If for example we know homelessness is a problem and will get worse, why not help people to use this technology to solve that problem?

If you're just trying to build Wall Street 2.0 that is easy, but don't be surprised if the Occupy protesters treat you as the banking new elite.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 09:49:58 PM by luckybit »
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Offline Empirical1

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2014, 10:30:12 PM »

You still don't get it. Do you want to build a product or bootstrap an industry?
What Bitcoin has done was possible only because you had tens of thousands of early adopters mining.

To create an ecosystem you need community, collaboration and strategic alliances.

We are dealing with the digital world where your product can be forked. It's all about winning stakeholders and building community. If you build a big enough community of entrepreneurs that is your network effect. That is the only reason Bitcoin, Litecoin and Dogecoin do well.

Even 5 years in, 80% of Bitcoins are still owned by less than 10 000 people...

We haven't even released Bitshares X yet and I believe our community is in the thousands.

I'd rather attract people who want to contribute something to the community, than value Bitshares so little we give away shares in it for free.


A few examples of social entrepreneurship so you can see the difference...

Thanks, yes my mistake,  Social entrepreneurship is a bit different.

This is very important to remember. If you're getting rich while everyone around you is losing their jobs, homeless, and getting poor, those people someday will see these forum posts of ours and will not respect what we built.

So it's extremely important in my opinion, critical in fact, that social entrepreneurship be embraced from the start. If for example we know homelessness is a problem and will get worse, why not help people to use this technology to solve that problem?

If you're just trying to build Wall Street 2.0 that is easy, but don't be surprised if the Occupy protesters treat you as the banking new elite.

Bitshares decentralised bank and exchange is offering a better solution to Wall Street & Central Banks. (Their biggest crime, imo, is constantly debasing the money supply, making their citizens poorer while telling them it's absolutely necessary and for their benefit.)

So personally I'm not sure if Bitshares X increasing the current money supply with the same reasoning is also the best marketing strategy either.




Offline luckybit

Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2014, 10:41:17 PM »

You still don't get it. Do you want to build a product or bootstrap an industry?
What Bitcoin has done was possible only because you had tens of thousands of early adopters mining.

To create an ecosystem you need community, collaboration and strategic alliances.

We are dealing with the digital world where your product can be forked. It's all about winning stakeholders and building community. If you build a big enough community of entrepreneurs that is your network effect. That is the only reason Bitcoin, Litecoin and Dogecoin do well.

Even 5 years in, 80% of Bitcoins are still owned by less than 10 000 people...

We haven't even released Bitshares X yet and I believe our community is in the thousands.

I'd rather attract people who want to contribute something to the community, than value Bitshares so little we give away shares in it for free.


A few examples of social entrepreneurship so you can see the difference...

Thanks, yes my mistake,  Social entrepreneurship is a bit different.

This is very important to remember. If you're getting rich while everyone around you is losing their jobs, homeless, and getting poor, those people someday will see these forum posts of ours and will not respect what we built.

So it's extremely important in my opinion, critical in fact, that social entrepreneurship be embraced from the start. If for example we know homelessness is a problem and will get worse, why not help people to use this technology to solve that problem?

If you're just trying to build Wall Street 2.0 that is easy, but don't be surprised if the Occupy protesters treat you as the banking new elite.

Bitshares decentralised bank and exchange is offering a better solution to Wall Street & Central Banks. (Their biggest crime, imo, is constantly debasing the money supply, making their citizens poorer while telling them it's absolutely necessary and for their benefit.)

So personally I'm not sure if Bitshares X increasing the current money supply with the same reasoning is also the best marketing strategy either.

I think you may be misinformed. I never said we should give away Bitshares in particular but I am talking about AGS. I never said increase the Bitshares supply. I never said what percentage should be distributed in airdrops or at what rate.

But you do have to continuously distribute to create a community of stakeholders.

You cannot expect to just build a product and for them to somehow find you without doing any marketing.

It's not a big deal to me if we give 1-5% away in airdrops. That's not a lot to spend for what you could gain in market cap as a result. And really it's not going to affect our proportions. It's not like new Bitshares are being created to do this like with Bitcoin so our proportions would stay the same.

Additionally this airdrop idea works better with AGS or at least with a year long vesting period. So if you give 1-5% of AGS away in airdrops that would be cool. It would also be cool if you give social entrepreneurs 5-10 AGS each. You don't have to give a whole lot for it to matter.

Since they cannot sell them, the AGS would market the purchase of shares in future DACs because they'll learn how much AGS is worth and may start buying shares in the future or buying AGS.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 10:48:45 PM by luckybit »
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Offline Empirical1

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Re: Airdrop - Food for thought.
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2014, 11:09:41 PM »

I think you may be misinformed. I never said increase the Bitshares supply. I never said what percentage should be distributed in airdrops or at what rate.

But you do have to continuously distribute to create a community of stakeholders.


You mention AGS, but if we wanted to airdrop BTS-X, it would be by increasing the money supply.

'Continuously distribute to create a community' - To people who don't buy shares? That sounds suspiciously like continuous debasement/inflation. 


You cannot expect to just build a product and for them to somehow find you without doing any marketing.

It's not a big deal to me if we give 1-5% away in airdrops. That's not a lot to spend for what you could gain in market cap as a result.

I'm all in favour of massive marketing and promotion! Videos, adverts, articles, free promotions and discounts!
Giving away free equity in the valuable underlying company is not great marketing, I'm surprised you think we'll gain market cap as so far the airdrop evidence is showing that it creates massive downward pressure on price. 

My proposal

We should recognise that giving away free equity to customers doesn't create a market. A good product well marketed creates a market.

So spend a lot on marketing, videos, adverts, articles, promotions and discounts.

& who creates Bitshares products? The developers, particularly Bytemaster.

Rather than increasing the BTS X money supply I would be in favour of allocating additional funds out of AGS, specifically to buy BTS X when it becomes liquid, that will be given to the developers, mainly Bytemaster.

As shareholders the best thing we can do is make sure our key developers are properly rewarded and incentivised to deliver great products, surely if we're going to give away our equity it has to be to them?

 

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