Poll

Should we form a strategic economic alliance with the Blackcoin community?

Yes we should
12 (33.3%)
Yes we should but I don't know if it's technically possible
8 (22.2%)
No we shouldn't
14 (38.9%)
No we shouldn't and it's not technically possible
2 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: May 17, 2014, 02:13:50 AM

Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Blackshares, can it be done? Is it in our mutual benefit? Brainstorm here  (Read 3481 times)

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Offline luckybit


Dialog bellow from the Blackcoin community

If you want to kill BlackCoin, then merge with a stupid meme based coin like Doge. It will never be taken seriously as a form of currency it will forever be a gimmick.

I thought I was the only one who thought it was a horrendous idea.  Glad to see I'm not alone.

Would be too complex of a change to do and rollout to everyone anyways.. doubt this *can* happen.


The beautiful thing is that Blackdoge wouldn't actually require a change to BC or to DOGE.  It would be a completely new PoS coin but the initial distribution of coins would be based on each users holdings in DOGE and BC at widely-telegraphed point in the future.  Each user could claim their share of the premine for free using the private keys they already hold.  Users from DOGE and BC that do nothing automatically get piggybacked to Blackdoge.  If Blackdoge fails, no one loses.  If Blackdoge succeeds, both communities win because you've just made your coin more useful. 

This would be the first cryptocurrency blockchain merger in the world's history and would make the news all over the world!  In fact, it would probably go down in the history books.  Why would having a larger user base be a bad thing?

Thinks about your potential slogan.  Blackdoge: meaner, faster, pure proof of stake.  The future of cryptocurrency.


I think we could do better than "Blackdoge". Blackshares could be the name of a project to create an economic alliance between the Blackcoin community and Bitshares community.

I think these strategic alliances must be formed but it's a matter of how technically feasible it is to do it. If you're a supporter of forming a strategic alliance with the Blackcoin community this is the official thread for brainstorming.

Some suggested methods/tools on the table include

1. An airdrop of some kind of AGS and/or third party DAC shares onto the Blackcoin blockchain just as was done with Protoshares.

2. Hybrid multipool which mines profitable altcoins and gives a 50/50 payout in Bitshares and Blackcoin. This would distribute both in such a way that the users of this pool would obtain an equal stake in each community. The result would be resistance to forks as the network effect grows for both communities.

3. Airdrop into Keyhotee, put the Blackcoin wallet into Keyhotee and do the multipool in such a way that mining is built into Keyhotee. The payouts would be in Bitshares (Blackcoin community can negotiate to get Blackcoin put into Keyhotee and make it hybrid). This is of benefit because it strategically markets Keyhotee, Blackcoin and Bitshares.

These are the three ideas I could come up with. Since this is a brainstorm thread I'm asking the most creative problem solvers of the community to come up with some ideas to make this possible and list them here. I'm also asking for the technically inclined to offer some technical way to engineer it into reality.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 02:37:20 AM by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

I am interested, but also curious about one thing:  just recently I was doing some reading and it made me wonder about how centralizing this is.  Can you give me a run-down?
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Offline luckybit

I am interested, but also curious about one thing:  just recently I was doing some reading and it made me wonder about how centralizing this is.  Can you give me a run-down?

As far as I know it's decentralizing. Because people who virtually mine for Bitshares/BC on the multipool and would receive them in a fair manner. Anyone could mine any coin by any algorithm so it's not like there is a bias to one cartel or another. Scrypt, ASIC, or whatever else. So if anything I would say the virtual mining would be very decentralizing for distribution if perfected.

Whether Blackcoin itself is fairly distributed I cannot say. If you have any information which can indicate what aspect would be centralizing let me know.

If you're saying it centralizes around certain communities then that would be the point. The community that came up with the idea and built Blackcoin can be rewarded for their success with an airdrop. In a way you could say "well it centralizes power around success", but that to me is way better than to blindly airdrop and reward thieves and hackers in Bitcoin.

The purposes would be both marketing, fork resistance, dump resistance, building the network effect and protecting the social consensus with that network effect based on the strategic alliances formed.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 04:47:30 AM by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

Could there form a "Multipool" cartel?
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Offline fuzzy

Damn...
Upon reading more, this is even better than I initially thought.  http://www.reddit.com/r/blackcoin/comments/237l23/iama_st_gnu_lead_software_engineer_for_blackcoin/
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Offline luckybit

Could there form a "Multipool" cartel?

Depends on if ownership of the multipool is centralized or not. Since in this case it would be virtual mining I don't see what kind of cartel they could have. They can't launch a 51% attack and even if somehow that were possible it would take minimal effort to just make more multipool servers. I don't see the threat really.

Mining pools become a cartel when it's one kind of algorithm and everyone has to use the pool to mine like with ASICs or Scrypt. You cannot solomine and the way the pools were set up it was usually designed to be centralizing. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem when you have all different algorithms and the most profitable coin from that algorithm being mined.

In theory its possible that a single multipool could get too big if they were the only pool but the way Blackcoin seems to be doing it is that they have several pools. Maybe I'm not seeing the treat and maybe you can explain to me how a multipool cartel could form in a virtual mining scenario.

We have to distinguish between "virtual mining" and Proof of Work mining. Blackcoin and Bitshares are Proof of Stake so there is no possibility of a 51% attack. A cartel would never be able to gain power over Bitshares or Blackcoin like what happened with Bltcoin because hashing power wouldn't be centralized around a chip maker. Maybe they could get a lot of mining fees but that would be worth it because Bitshares would be distributed to many more people.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:37:52 AM by luckybit »
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Offline CLains

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Faircoin community also, I believe. They are "Fair."
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Offline Agent86

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Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that Blackcoin is just a clone of peercoin/novacoin with a short time before all POW coins were fully mined.  It doesn't seem that innovative to me, it seems like just another clone.  I would think we are better to work on our own vision (which to me is much more compelling) than spend time forging alliances with junk/clone coins.  I definitely don't think it should be a priority of bytemaster.  It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

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I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.

Offline smiley35

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I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.

I'm with you. Blackcoin is just the latest miner pump and dump. They have been doing this literally since ASICs came to bit coin. They are purely profiteers. What justification for there to airdrop to them.... because they exist and are currently pumping a new coin?

Offline Empirical1

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It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

+5% I think a mining pool getting paid via POS BlackCoin was a good idea, but I can't see any value in joining them.

There may be some value though in creating a template/service to help non crypto based groups create something similar & list it, in exchange for shares in that new crypto-equity. I've tried to outline my basic thoughts here...  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4249.0


Offline luckybit

I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.

Blackcoin is Proof of Stake, promotes Proof of Stake, and captures the profitability from Proof of Work altcoins and feeds it into Proof of Stake through their multipool innovation.

The benefit to the Bitshares community is that Bitshares could benefit from their multipool technology, but also from their marketing capability. The Bitshares community sucks at marketing and Blackcoin is the best at it. If you don't believe me look at the charts and see for yourself.

It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

+5% I think a mining pool getting paid via POS BlackCoin was a good idea, but I can't see any value in joining them.

There may be some value though in creating a template/service to help non crypto based groups create something similar & list it, in exchange for shares in that new crypto-equity. I've tried to outline my basic thoughts here...  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4249.0

If it's a good idea and successful, why not join/merge with them? Or do you believe the Bitshares community can market itself as well as Blackcoin because I don't think Bitshares can do it without joining forces with a community which is good at it. Corporations often merge with or buy out other corporations when they realize that their competitor has some expertise or novel technology that they cannot recreate in-house.

I'm convinced that the Bitshares community cannot do the kind of grass roots marketing Blackcoin is doing in-house just as the Blackcoin community doesn't have a technical wizard like Bytemaster who can do DPOS in house.

Whether or not you view Blackcoin as a pump and dump, they have perfected the process of pumping. Pumping is all about marketing, and if you want to see a lot of people acquire and use Bitshares then you will have to form alliances with the communities that are good at marketing to the demographics you want.

Blackcoin is the best at marketing to savers, investors, miners, they are so good at it in fact that they are in my opinion second only to Litecoin. They will eventually challenge Litecoin because their technology is superior to Litecoin.

Blackcoin is a great introduction to the merit of Proof of Stake and it's the first coin to actually market Proof of Stake to the Bitcoin community which traditionally only backs Proof of Work coins. For this reason the Blackcoin community has made history, and while the Bitshares community can simply copy the Blackcoin multipool idea and give them nothing in exchange for it, this will only create animosity between the two communities and make them into competitors rather than allies.

Without allies there will be no reason for anyone to notice Bitshares and Blackcoin could end up becoming the default Proof of Stake coin.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that Blackcoin is just a clone of peercoin/novacoin with a short time before all POW coins were fully mined.  It doesn't seem that innovative to me, it seems like just another clone.  I would think we are better to work on our own vision (which to me is much more compelling) than spend time forging alliances with junk/clone coins.  I definitely don't think it should be a priority of bytemaster.  It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

The community is more important than the code. If you're trying to do marketing having the best code is irrelevant. Anyone can fork Bitshares, give to a better community and we all lose.

For this reason Bitshares community has to form alliances with the best altcoin communities. Blackcoin is the best Proof of Stake community when it comes to marketing and it's charts don't lie.

Take a look at their charts. The last time something happened like this was with Dogecoin and Litecoin.

If what you say is true, that their code is cloned, not special, etc, but the Bitshares code is special, novel, etc, why isn't Bitshares as popular as Blackcoin? It's because the Bitshares community isn't as talented as the Blackcoin community at marketing (pumping).

I don't tihnk Blackcoin is a pump and dump either. If you look at the long trend of the chart it's been going up continuously and the multipool idea creates buy support which provides dump resistance. That dump resistance is a technical breakthrough because we haven't seen that happen before.

I think its a good idea to work with a community rather than compete against when you both have the same goal in mind. The goal of the Blackcoin community is to become a coin for investors, savers, miners, and to promote Proof of Stake. It's ultimate goal is to replace Litecoin and they are putting in place all the right incentives to do it.

1. Miners are attracted to it by incentives.
2. Savers are attracted to it by incentives.
3. Pool operators are attracted to it by incentives.
4. Virtual mining (which their community invented) is the best form of marketing for a Proof of Stake coin to date, and it solves the distribution and centralization problems as a side effect.

The case you can make is that why bother when the Bitshares community can just take their code and ideas and copy it. I would say the Bitcoin community could just take the code and ideas from the Bitshares community via forks. So it's all about the community and not the code as the code can be replicated via fork.

For this reason the merger or alliance between two communities is about aligning the incentives in such a way that they mutually benefit from the success of each other.

The point is to build a symbiosis between the two communities because competition with the Blackcoin community has a negative impact on Proof of Stake communities as a whole.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:24:33 PM by luckybit »
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Offline biophil

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Thanks for the thoughts, luckybit. I heartily agree. Objecting to a merger on the grounds that "bitshares is ours, we shouldn't give it away" seems misguided at best and fatal at worst.

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Offline fuzzy

Thanks for the thoughts, luckybit. I heartily agree. Objecting to a merger on the grounds that "bitshares is ours, we shouldn't give it away" seems misguided at best and fatal at worst.

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It is interesting though to talk about these things.  Nothing is ever required to be set in stone, but we are all treading in uncharted waters...

My main concern is doing anything that will significantly fracture relationships inside communities, so anything we ever do must have buy-in from all sides and have a long list of benefits that a large majority can agree upon. 
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