Author Topic: Blackshares, can it be done? Is it in our mutual benefit? Brainstorm here  (Read 14529 times)

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Offline luckybit

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The Blackcoin community can benefit from using Bitshares

This is a point which I expected to be obvious but I'll make it obvious. The Blackcoin community would benefit a lot from having BitAssets like BitUSD, BitBTC, and Bitshares in general. Imagine the power of a hybrid pool which let people mine and receive BitUSD if they chose to do so in a situation where Bitcoin is too volatile. Imagine if they receive both Blackcoin and Bitshares in the form of any BitAsset they choose?

Payouts in BTC don't make any sense anymore when you can payout in BitBTC. When BTC is being dumped you can switch your payout to any other BitAsset including BitUSD. Payout in BitUSD also would make tax calculations a lot easier for people.

And if it's hybrid payout with Blackcoin then they get to speculate on the rise of Blackcoin which gets pumped and dumped as some would say, but would be able to shield themselves using Bitshares instead of Blackshield technology which they are relying on now.


The Bitshares community benefits because the Bitshares trading exchange is built into the mining pool


This is the major benefit for Bitshares. It markets the technology precisely to the demographic most likely to demand it. They need Bitshares in order to speculate and trade, and Bitshares needs to be marketed to speculators and traders. The Lotto DAC, the Insurance DAC, all of these could be marketed as well through the strategic relationships and alliances formed.

The Bitshares community needs the marketing, the user base, the volume, all which the Blackcoin community has. The Blackcoin community also shares a lot of the views on the direction the technology should go with regard to Proof of Stake. They are making their coin the coin of investors, miners, day traders, etc, and the one thing they are missing is the one thing the Bitshares community has to offer which is world class innovative technology.

I hope people here can see the big picture and join forces as it wouldn't cost us anything. Anyone developing a DAC has 80% of the shares which they can use to form strategic alliances or for marketing. An air drop to the Blackcoin chain is a stroke of genius for strategic marketing and wouldn't take much effort at all.

Developers on the forum could meet with reps from the Blackcoin community who I brought here and come up with some relationship of mutual benefit, and then when Bitshares is released the announcement of it's release should be made simultanously in both communites. The Blackcoin community would then set up the first Bitshares/Blackcoin hybrid pool in exchange for receiving the airdrop.

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Offline fuzzy

Thanks for the thoughts, luckybit. I heartily agree. Objecting to a merger on the grounds that "bitshares is ours, we shouldn't give it away" seems misguided at best and fatal at worst.

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It is interesting though to talk about these things.  Nothing is ever required to be set in stone, but we are all treading in uncharted waters...

My main concern is doing anything that will significantly fracture relationships inside communities, so anything we ever do must have buy-in from all sides and have a long list of benefits that a large majority can agree upon. 
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Offline biophil

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Thanks for the thoughts, luckybit. I heartily agree. Objecting to a merger on the grounds that "bitshares is ours, we shouldn't give it away" seems misguided at best and fatal at worst.

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Offline luckybit

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I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.

Blackcoin is Proof of Stake, promotes Proof of Stake, and captures the profitability from Proof of Work altcoins and feeds it into Proof of Stake through their multipool innovation.

The benefit to the Bitshares community is that Bitshares could benefit from their multipool technology, but also from their marketing capability. The Bitshares community sucks at marketing and Blackcoin is the best at it. If you don't believe me look at the charts and see for yourself.

It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

+5% I think a mining pool getting paid via POS BlackCoin was a good idea, but I can't see any value in joining them.

There may be some value though in creating a template/service to help non crypto based groups create something similar & list it, in exchange for shares in that new crypto-equity. I've tried to outline my basic thoughts here...  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4249.0

If it's a good idea and successful, why not join/merge with them? Or do you believe the Bitshares community can market itself as well as Blackcoin because I don't think Bitshares can do it without joining forces with a community which is good at it. Corporations often merge with or buy out other corporations when they realize that their competitor has some expertise or novel technology that they cannot recreate in-house.

I'm convinced that the Bitshares community cannot do the kind of grass roots marketing Blackcoin is doing in-house just as the Blackcoin community doesn't have a technical wizard like Bytemaster who can do DPOS in house.

Whether or not you view Blackcoin as a pump and dump, they have perfected the process of pumping. Pumping is all about marketing, and if you want to see a lot of people acquire and use Bitshares then you will have to form alliances with the communities that are good at marketing to the demographics you want.

Blackcoin is the best at marketing to savers, investors, miners, they are so good at it in fact that they are in my opinion second only to Litecoin. They will eventually challenge Litecoin because their technology is superior to Litecoin.

Blackcoin is a great introduction to the merit of Proof of Stake and it's the first coin to actually market Proof of Stake to the Bitcoin community which traditionally only backs Proof of Work coins. For this reason the Blackcoin community has made history, and while the Bitshares community can simply copy the Blackcoin multipool idea and give them nothing in exchange for it, this will only create animosity between the two communities and make them into competitors rather than allies.

Without allies there will be no reason for anyone to notice Bitshares and Blackcoin could end up becoming the default Proof of Stake coin.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that Blackcoin is just a clone of peercoin/novacoin with a short time before all POW coins were fully mined.  It doesn't seem that innovative to me, it seems like just another clone.  I would think we are better to work on our own vision (which to me is much more compelling) than spend time forging alliances with junk/clone coins.  I definitely don't think it should be a priority of bytemaster.  It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

The community is more important than the code. If you're trying to do marketing having the best code is irrelevant. Anyone can fork Bitshares, give to a better community and we all lose.

For this reason Bitshares community has to form alliances with the best altcoin communities. Blackcoin is the best Proof of Stake community when it comes to marketing and it's charts don't lie.

Take a look at their charts. The last time something happened like this was with Dogecoin and Litecoin.

If what you say is true, that their code is cloned, not special, etc, but the Bitshares code is special, novel, etc, why isn't Bitshares as popular as Blackcoin? It's because the Bitshares community isn't as talented as the Blackcoin community at marketing (pumping).

I don't tihnk Blackcoin is a pump and dump either. If you look at the long trend of the chart it's been going up continuously and the multipool idea creates buy support which provides dump resistance. That dump resistance is a technical breakthrough because we haven't seen that happen before.

I think its a good idea to work with a community rather than compete against when you both have the same goal in mind. The goal of the Blackcoin community is to become a coin for investors, savers, miners, and to promote Proof of Stake. It's ultimate goal is to replace Litecoin and they are putting in place all the right incentives to do it.

1. Miners are attracted to it by incentives.
2. Savers are attracted to it by incentives.
3. Pool operators are attracted to it by incentives.
4. Virtual mining (which their community invented) is the best form of marketing for a Proof of Stake coin to date, and it solves the distribution and centralization problems as a side effect.

The case you can make is that why bother when the Bitshares community can just take their code and ideas and copy it. I would say the Bitcoin community could just take the code and ideas from the Bitshares community via forks. So it's all about the community and not the code as the code can be replicated via fork.

For this reason the merger or alliance between two communities is about aligning the incentives in such a way that they mutually benefit from the success of each other.

The point is to build a symbiosis between the two communities because competition with the Blackcoin community has a negative impact on Proof of Stake communities as a whole.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:24:33 pm by luckybit »
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Offline Empirical1

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It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

+5% I think a mining pool getting paid via POS BlackCoin was a good idea, but I can't see any value in joining them.

There may be some value though in creating a template/service to help non crypto based groups create something similar & list it, in exchange for shares in that new crypto-equity. I've tried to outline my basic thoughts here...  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4249.0


Offline smiley35

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I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.

I'm with you. Blackcoin is just the latest miner pump and dump. They have been doing this literally since ASICs came to bit coin. They are purely profiteers. What justification for there to airdrop to them.... because they exist and are currently pumping a new coin?

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I don't see what bitshares has to gain from an association with blackcoin. The projects aren't even comparable.

Offline Agent86

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Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that Blackcoin is just a clone of peercoin/novacoin with a short time before all POW coins were fully mined.  It doesn't seem that innovative to me, it seems like just another clone.  I would think we are better to work on our own vision (which to me is much more compelling) than spend time forging alliances with junk/clone coins.  I definitely don't think it should be a priority of bytemaster.  It's nice that BlackCoin is POS and they had a good idea with their mining pool (we could copy this idea), but overall it doesn't seem that interesting to me and is cloned code.

Offline CLains

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Faircoin community also, I believe. They are "Fair."

Offline luckybit

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Could there form a "Multipool" cartel?

Depends on if ownership of the multipool is centralized or not. Since in this case it would be virtual mining I don't see what kind of cartel they could have. They can't launch a 51% attack and even if somehow that were possible it would take minimal effort to just make more multipool servers. I don't see the threat really.

Mining pools become a cartel when it's one kind of algorithm and everyone has to use the pool to mine like with ASICs or Scrypt. You cannot solomine and the way the pools were set up it was usually designed to be centralizing. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem when you have all different algorithms and the most profitable coin from that algorithm being mined.

In theory its possible that a single multipool could get too big if they were the only pool but the way Blackcoin seems to be doing it is that they have several pools. Maybe I'm not seeing the treat and maybe you can explain to me how a multipool cartel could form in a virtual mining scenario.

We have to distinguish between "virtual mining" and Proof of Work mining. Blackcoin and Bitshares are Proof of Stake so there is no possibility of a 51% attack. A cartel would never be able to gain power over Bitshares or Blackcoin like what happened with Bltcoin because hashing power wouldn't be centralized around a chip maker. Maybe they could get a lot of mining fees but that would be worth it because Bitshares would be distributed to many more people.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 11:37:52 am by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline fuzzy

WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline luckybit

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I am interested, but also curious about one thing:  just recently I was doing some reading and it made me wonder about how centralizing this is.  Can you give me a run-down?

As far as I know it's decentralizing. Because people who virtually mine for Bitshares/BC on the multipool and would receive them in a fair manner. Anyone could mine any coin by any algorithm so it's not like there is a bias to one cartel or another. Scrypt, ASIC, or whatever else. So if anything I would say the virtual mining would be very decentralizing for distribution if perfected.

Whether Blackcoin itself is fairly distributed I cannot say. If you have any information which can indicate what aspect would be centralizing let me know.

If you're saying it centralizes around certain communities then that would be the point. The community that came up with the idea and built Blackcoin can be rewarded for their success with an airdrop. In a way you could say "well it centralizes power around success", but that to me is way better than to blindly airdrop and reward thieves and hackers in Bitcoin.

The purposes would be both marketing, fork resistance, dump resistance, building the network effect and protecting the social consensus with that network effect based on the strategic alliances formed.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 04:47:30 am by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

I am interested, but also curious about one thing:  just recently I was doing some reading and it made me wonder about how centralizing this is.  Can you give me a run-down?
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These people are mislead. Crypto currencies do not exist, there is only crypto equity.


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