Author Topic: A proven coder who is struggling to "get it"  (Read 5074 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
I'll be the first to profess a PROFOUND ignorance on this subject....

My general approach with such things is to poke at it from all sides till I find the foundation and structure like like all truths, becomes self evident once discovered.

The talk with Daniel & Dr. Charles Evans was precisely the kind of systematic and pragmatic breakdown of the moving pieces that I had been seeking to bootstrap my understanding.

My earlier comment regarding a "stable" lottery was in reference to the two most precarious transitions for such a thing - the start and the end. In the beginning, there tends to be an infusion of "funds" that must be diligently managed and conserved while being leveraged to expand the audience for the lottery.  I look at social security as a very deterministic "lottery", won by those who survive to age 72, Had its infusion of cash been properly managed, it would not be facing the crisis involved in winding it down today.  Social security would have remained completely solvent had its income not be re-appropriated into the government's general fund (in violation of its original "business" logic).

I look forward to this evenings Mumble session - thanks again to delulo for the complete "how to" participate links!

- John "S"
Sounds good!

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Lottery, like the proposed insurance dac, should be cashflow based IMO. You win a ticket that pays 100x 100 times over time rather than 10,000x.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
I'll be the first to profess a PROFOUND ignorance on this subject....

My general approach with such things is to poke at it from all sides till I find the foundation and structure like like all truths, becomes self evident once discovered.

The talk with Daniel & Dr. Charles Evans was precisely the kind of systematic and pragmatic breakdown of the moving pieces that I had been seeking to bootstrap my understanding.

My earlier comment regarding a "stable" lottery was in reference to the two most precarious transitions for such a thing - the start and the end. In the beginning, there tends to be an infusion of "funds" that must be diligently managed and conserved while being leveraged to expand the audience for the lottery.  I look at social security as a very deterministic "lottery", won by those who survive to age 72, Had its infusion of cash been properly managed, it would not be facing the crisis involved in winding it down today.  Social security would have remained completely solvent had its income not be re-appropriated into the government's general fund (in violation of its original "business" logic).

I look forward to this evenings Mumble session - thanks again to delulo for the complete "how to" participate links!

- John "S"

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
I certainly never thought he was ignorant.  My comment was meant to indicate that I didn't have time to address it all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+5
It's impossible for one person to do it all! You have the best overview how to delegate to the community and make the most use of it. If we could find an incentive structure that would further motivate the community to practically produce stuff in fields like marketing, eduction (a wiki etc.) it would greatly enhance productivity. Clains for example made a suggestion here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4059.msg50889#msg50889
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:04:44 pm by delulo »

Offline bytemaster

I certainly never thought he was ignorant.  My comment was meant to indicate that I didn't have time to address it all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Thank you so very much delulo!

I'm starting the homework assignments now.   I may end up switching over to a windows laptop, but so far I seem to have Mumble up and running on FreeBSD (Yippee!).

Offline santaclause102

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2486
    • View Profile
Thanks John for your post! Raising questions like this and exposing one's current understanding of the matter is the only way to enhance one's understanding.
I don't think Bytemaster thought you where ignorant or something. Comes across as such sometimes when we can not look at each other :)
Here are the details for the mumble server https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4150.0 in case you haven't found them yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk is a great start.
What did you mean by stable lottery? Basically, DACs do not directly have anything to do with currency. In the lottery DAC the currency is not the product, the fun of gambling is. Visa would be comparable to Bitcoin but not to a lottery DAC. A lottery DAC uses (basically) the same technology as Bitcoin but with a totally different functionality for the user. A DAC lottery would just let you buy a lottery ticket as you buy an altcoin. You for example buy a lottery ticket that grants you a 49.99% chance to double up on the value of the ticket. Then an algorithm that is open source and powered by the Lottery DAC network (comparable to the network of miners with Bitcoin) decides whether you won or not. If you won, you are paid out either in lotto shares or in an other digital currency which you can exchange for USD (not so sure about that part). 0.001 % of the ticket value on average goes to the shareholders. Your business model: Super low operational costs, secure against corruption/fraud, anonymous, potentially great choice of options of tickets. The challenge is to make it easily accessible for the average guy. Here is the Lotto Whitepaper if you want to get into the details https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KkaAnuM0a_YU2yMaeDSDiyNUv96c9TrYrCjKadC01yA/edit?pli=1
Looking forward to the discussion with you on Tuesday. Is great to have some fresh questions and critical input! 

Quote
There has to be a way to subdivide anonymous ownership of physical assets into some form of crypto share.  Some kind of entity that can transact the profit and losses of one's share of ownership into a digital currency that can then be either reinvested or divested.
I recommend to watch the youtube video above. It completely - and rightfully so - dissolves the ambiguity of cryptocurrency and cryptoshares.

Offline bytemaster

The lottery model is the very thing I'm having a hard time with in this crypto currency/shares landscape.  In a stable lottery, the users serve the needs of business and on average the user "loses".  If the currency IS the product then trade is an artifact of the product, not its purpose.   That's the part that I'm having a hard time embracing.

I'm pretty sure Visa would not have survived if its business model was a lottery where there was a 1% chance of a "free" purchase, but a 50% chance of being overcharged.

There has to be a way to subdivide anonymous ownership of physical assets into some form of crypto share.  Some kind of entity that can transact the profit and losses of one's share of ownership into a digital currency that can then be either reinvested or divested.

You are speaking a foreign language from where I sit.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
The lottery model is the very thing I'm having a hard time with in this crypto currency/shares landscape.  In a stable lottery, the users serve the needs of business and on average the user "loses".  If the currency IS the product then trade is an artifact of the product, not its purpose.   That's the part that I'm having a hard time embracing.

I'm pretty sure Visa would not have survived if its business model was a lottery where there was a 1% chance of a "free" purchase, but a 50% chance of being overcharged.

There has to be a way to subdivide anonymous ownership of physical assets into some form of crypto share.  Some kind of entity that can transact the profit and losses of one's share of ownership into a digital currency that can then be either reinvested or divested.

Offline Agent86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • BTSX: agent86
    • View Profile
I think the most stripped down basic example of a profitable DAC is a lottery or gambling.  The lottery is large multibillion $/ year business.  If Susie Q can buy lotto tickets and play this game that she enjoys and get better odds and a better reward and possibly better tax consequences or the ability to easily avoid any possibility of having winnings tied to her real identity... Why would she play the traditional lotto?  I believe this is easily possible with a DAC.

There are already blockchain based gambling games in existance.


Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Thanks Agent86. 

I completely get the notion of a currency that is controlled by a majority of its users as opposed to a minority in power, but it seems that any entity that has authoritative or physical control of the network, implicitly has the power to shut such a thing down.  So as a tyranny "resistant" form of trade, I don't quite get it.  One need only to look at Argentina's currency manipulation and China's manipulation of the internet to see that they are pretty much two sides of the same "coin".

As a complementary form of trade that parallels and piggybacks existing currency, I can imagine a subset of trade that would benefit the anonymity and security of crypto.   But I'm still at a loss for a compelling use case for a Susie Q Homemaker.  Even more so when you consider that every crypto currency like Bitcoin is a fixed sized asset that will continue to get smaller and smaller over time, causing its own form of deflation against any assets pegged to it.

The only time I had an "ah-ha" moment, was when I started thinking about a Bitshares like concept, as applied to physical assets, "owned" by an anonymous crowd.

I live in Colorado.  We've had legal Marijuana sales for a number of years, but not till this year did the feds promise not to prosecute banks that worked with them.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26248396

Perhaps a huge opportunity was lost for the crypto community.  I can imagine someone setting up a (legal) pot shop and issuing digital shares in exchange for resources to start the business (cash, utility bills, store front, etc).  I can imagine how shareholders could be paid profits in some form of digital currency that could then be exchanged for more conventional currencies.  It also offers some interesting options for consumers to pay with digital currencies - how would the mandatory taxes be calculated?

Another use case is gun sales in Wyoming and Texas.   After Colorado's recent high capacity magazine ban, many of my friends are (legally) buying their toys in Wyoming for cash and bypassing what the Boulder and Denver tried to impose on the rest of Colorado.

I'm still trying hard to imagine a sustainable business model where the act of mining is NOT a primary aspect of the business.  Something that offers value by what it _does_  rather than speculation of what it might be.

Offline Agent86

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • BTSX: agent86
    • View Profile
Somebody, please demonstrate the business model to me for either a Ho Chi Minh or a Susie Q. Homemaker - after the last crypto-token has been mined that offers a compelling system of trade that eclipses a state sponsored and sanctioned tool for the same.

Hi John, thanks for your post.  I want to see if I can try to answer the main question that you raised... I'm paraphrasing: "why would a decentralized currency a la bitcoin be preferable to the user over a state sponsored currency."  I hope I have your question correct.

I think bitshares uses an important phrase "social consensus".  I think social consensus is at play not just in the value of bitcoin but also in the value of fiat currency and more broadly the idea that any state or government has any authority at all.  The authority and ability of the US government to enforce laws boils down to social consensus.  Why do we allow 9 people on the supreme court to decide what laws are enforced and what laws are thrown out and possibly allow these 9 people to have decided the outcome of the 2000 presidential election where the majority of American voters voted for the other candidate?  social consensus in the system.  Governments have not typically been very efficient at representing the interests of citizens but if governments and leaders are not careful to act in a way that seems at least somewhat reasonable/fair they can quickly lose power and be overthrown; i.e. they can lose the social consensus.  e.g. Egypt, Ukraine, etc.

The US dollar that we are used to is probably one of the "better" fiat currencies out there so it doesn't seem so bad.  Look up the value chart of the now defunct Zimbabwean dollar (you can buy a 100 trillion dollar bill on ebay for fun).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar

Imagine you lived in a country that used a fiat currency that was backed by a local social consensus and possibly weak social consensus, and you knew that the warlord leader just printed more of the state currency whenever he wanted to buy a lamborghini, and the value of the money was constantly tanking.  Would you prefer to use this currency or would you prefer a currency backed by an international social consensus where the money is valued everywhere, and is easy to transmit, assets can't be frozen or stolen from you for political or legal reasons, and more can't be printed?

I could keep talking more about bitshares but don't want to make it too long.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 05:13:07 pm by Agent86 »

Offline John-S

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
It was not my intent to come across as boisterous.  Previously successful in creating a software company, yes, but obviously ignorant of some big picture concepts here.  I look forward to Tuesday's mumble session.

Offline bytemaster

Thanks for posting.  I think this would be a great topic for Tuesday mumble session.  I would like to invite Adam as well.

It is VERY clear that you are missing some fundamental concepts across the board.   

Understanding DACs has nothing to do with being a proven coder, so lets drop that implied appeal to authority. 

 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.