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Offline bytemaster

A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« on: April 23, 2014, 03:58:06 PM »

Sovereign: one that is sovereign; especially :  an autonomous state
                 freedom from external control

co–op noun \ˈkō-ˌäp, kō-ˈ\
: a business or organization that is owned and operated by the people who work there or the people who use its services


Discuss..
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Offline Mrrr

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 06:36:16 PM »
Lol, no, not discuss: elaborate :)

I understand what you are pointing at. Sovereignty is a bit of a problematic concept though. Has been discussed by wise men with respectable beards since the dawn of times and they still do not agree.

You could define a DAC as a co-op that by definition, autonomously, acts in the best interest of its owners.

For as far as I understood it, the 'autonomous' in DAC serves a double purpose. It expresses the limits to the the extent in which external forces can influence the Company, but it also expresses the limits to the extent in which the owners (internal forces) can influence the Company.

If you use sovereign in the sense that the owners cannot influence the 'organization or business' this is not correct. If you use sovereign in the sense that forces apart from the aforementioned owners cannot influence the 'organization or business' ; might as well stick with 'autonomous'

The limit in which the 'internal forces' can control the company is what is of value in a DAC. Mondragon, 'the Miracle of Basque Country' (or the ONLY business that seemed to have survived the crisis in Spain without a scratch), went bust because the internal forces were allowed to exert too much control over it.

I hope I'm making sense here.


Offline bytemaster

Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2014, 06:44:38 PM »
A DAC is Sovereign over its blockchain and that is all. 

The owners in theory can make any change they like because they can always hard-fork.   The difference is that if there is a disagreement 2 companies come out of it rather than one and the market will settle it.   

A DAC is only sovereign to the extent that there is freedom of speech and ability to broadcast transactions, governments are still Sovereign over the infrastructure of the internet and communication. 

But the goal of DACs is to make the owners sovereign over their assets.  Sovereign over their trading, hedging, domains, and gaming, and money.

Thus what we are doing is engineering individual sovereignty via encryption, blockchains, and consensus.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 07:33:19 PM »
Sovereign: one that is sovereign; especially :  an autonomous state
                 freedom from external control

co–op noun \ˈkō-ˌäp, kō-ˈ\
: a business or organization that is owned and operated by the people who work there or the people who use its services


Discuss..

Why redefine what a DAC is?

Perhaps some DACs can function as sovereign co-ops but not all.

Decentralized autonomous cooperative is just another kind of DAC which is probably more acceptable to different communities who don't like corporations.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 07:34:54 PM by luckybit »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 07:39:45 PM »
Sovereign: one that is sovereign; especially :  an autonomous state
                 freedom from external control

co–op noun \ˈkō-ˌäp, kō-ˈ\
: a business or organization that is owned and operated by the people who work there or the people who use its services


Discuss..

Why redefine what a DAC is?

Perhaps some DACs can function as sovereign co-ops but not all.

Decentralized autonomous cooperative is just another kind of DAC which is probably more acceptable to different communities who don't like corporations.

A DAC is not well defined based upon the types of questions we receive.  Many people do not like corporations.   Everyone thinks a DAC is just a way of IPOing your centralized company.     The C in DAC is best understood as a co-op, ie: it is a more accurate description of what a DAC actually is..... while all co-ops are companies, not all companies are co-ops.  Understanding that a DAC can only serve its members and is this more like a co-op than a traditional company which services people outside its company.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2014, 09:43:46 PM »
The co-op is a good analogy (in fact, it's more of a description than an analogy). Co-ops are often used for property ownership and for buying clubs. I've often wished the co-op structure could be used for insurance which, at its heart, is just a voluntary association between people who are pooling together to share the risks and benefit from some scale. It will be great to have DACs to address some of these areas where there is too much waste and greed.

Offline Empirical1

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 12:05:01 AM »
Yes Co-op is a better description than corporation or just company.


Sovereign in terms of making owners sovereign over their assets works too. I sometimes read pieces that originated from sovereignman.com who have applied sovereign in a similar way.

Quote
    Sovereign Man is an intelligence service that brings you rational solutions to protect your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness against bankrupt governments and a financial system in terminal decline 

Quote
  Learn how to diversify your life and assets geographically so that no government has power over you, and open doors to new opportunities for financial security and prosperity. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:14:32 AM by Empirical1 »

Offline Agent86

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2014, 12:35:57 AM »
Perhaps it's more accurate in some respects.  I don't think people are as familiar with the term co-op; it might be harder to imagine shares that grow in value with a co-op compared to a company.

I think REI and some mutual insurance companies are technically co-ops but most people might not make the distinction

In any case, I think the best way to explain it is to build it.  There are a lot of things that people would never think were possible until they saw it with their own eyes.  Most people don't know how their TVs or Cars really work but once they see it in action you don't need to convince them or explain it anymore.

I think the value of a DAC that "does something" might end up being easier for people to get than bitcoin.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:39:31 AM by Agent86 »

Offline luckybit

Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 02:51:37 AM »
Sovereign: one that is sovereign; especially :  an autonomous state
                 freedom from external control

co–op noun \ˈkō-ˌäp, kō-ˈ\
: a business or organization that is owned and operated by the people who work there or the people who use its services


Discuss..

Why redefine what a DAC is?

Perhaps some DACs can function as sovereign co-ops but not all.

Decentralized autonomous cooperative is just another kind of DAC which is probably more acceptable to different communities who don't like corporations.

A DAC is not well defined based upon the types of questions we receive.  Many people do not like corporations.   Everyone thinks a DAC is just a way of IPOing your centralized company.     The C in DAC is best understood as a co-op, ie: it is a more accurate description of what a DAC actually is..... while all co-ops are companies, not all companies are co-ops.  Understanding that a DAC can only serve its members and is this more like a co-op than a traditional company which services people outside its company.

I think we need different marketing materials and talking points for different communities and demographics. If they are left libertarian then perhaps we would want to highlight that it's a technology which can function as a decentralized autonomous cooperative. If we are dealing with capitalists or right libertarians then we should stick with decentralized autonomous corporation. Some will prefer decentralized autonomous social corporation for example if they are fighting for social justice.

In any case, it will not be one sized fits all. We will have to use custom market and custom chains for different communities.

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Offline bytemaster

Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2014, 03:10:12 AM »
The goal in my mind is deeper understanding of what it is at the heart.   Understanding is the key to innovation.   What gives the deepest most profound / accurate understanding may not be the best marketing or the most simplified.  Often simplification involves removing details and nuances from an idea.   

So an Autonomous Company removes some details but may be easier to understand.   Simply saying Company removes more details and is easily understood.   

Thus BitShares X is a bank or credit union.    Removes all details, but is easily understood.   

What makes it different from other banks and credit unions?   The database is public, the books are transparent, and it is provably solvent. 

Why would I want to use BitShares X as my bank?  You can instantly send money anywhere in the world, hold deposits of gold, silver, etc.  Your account cannot be frozen nor funds transferred without your consent. 

You see explaining these things to the lay man is only challenging because we wish to be more accurate and talk about how it works.   Focusing on what it does makes it easy to explain. 

So if your goal is to teach deep understanding for smart people then calling it a DAC is provably misleading because company is too abstract.   

Properties that make DACs different from the normal conception of a Company:

1) Sovereign - they operate outside the jurisdiction of any government and are fully in control of the shareholders.   
2) Cooperative - they only provide services to share holders and employees.   Before you can partake of the services of a co-op you must become a member, this is true with DACs as well.   


As a consequence of being Sovereign by the shareholders, they can own no assets outside the ledger.  Shareholders are not soverign over real-estate and all other property is held by someone else at the whim of governments.   Likewise, as a consequence of being sovereign to the shareholders, it can hold no secrets that are not known by all shareholders.   

A co-operative is a group of people acting together to meet the common needs and aspirations of its members, sharing ownership and making decisions democratically.

Co-operatives are not about making big profits for shareholders, but creating value for customers – this is what gives co-operatives a unique character, and influences our values and principles. 

A co-operative is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically controlled enterprise. (The International Co-operative Alliance Statement on the Co-operative Identity, Manchester 1995)

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline 1&0

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2014, 03:19:51 AM »
So far, BTS only air, nothing

Offline tonyk

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 03:20:51 AM »
Wait, wait, wait,
 hold your horses Dan…;” You can instantly send money anywhere in the world, hold deposits of gold, silver, etc.”
As far as I know you can hold ‘assets’ that will (hopefully) follow the price of gold…
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Agent86

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2014, 03:34:11 AM »
OK, I like where you are going.  Accurate metaphors are very powerful, the DAC concept definitely gave me a new way of looking at BTC.  So someone who only trades in bitUSD is still considered a shareholder of bitshares X?

Offline bytemaster

Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2014, 03:36:01 AM »
OK, I like where you are going.  Accurate metaphors are very powerful, the DAC concept definitely gave me a new way of looking at BTC.  So someone who only trades in bitUSD is still considered a shareholder of bitshares X?

Well.. that is an interesting perspective... they are lending credit to the Coop. 
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Online oco101

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Re: A DAC is a Sovereign Co-op
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2014, 03:40:38 AM »
Wait, wait, wait,
 hold your horses Dan…;” You can instantly send money anywhere in the world, hold deposits of gold, silver, etc.”
As far as I know you can hold ‘assets’ that will (hopefully) follow the price of gold…
Well bitGold will have the value let say of a ounce of gold. So what matters is, with my bitGold I could always buy a once of gold. So is the same Bitshares X hold deposits of gold, silver, etc. For sure he was not referring at holding actual physical gold  but at the end comes down the same ;)

 

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