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Offline tipon

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Capitalism is a cancer that is destroying the planet.
Thats because its based on infinite growth.
Growth means increasing productivity and increasing the use of natural resources and energies, it also increment the impacts of these processes in nature . These are in contradiction with the limited existence of natural resurces and the physical limits in our planet.
Capitalism is based on growth and thats why it cannot be sustainable ( in an ecological way).
Unsustainability means that its inevitable the collapse of capitalism. Or at least the structure of the actual world and the actual capitalist system is gonna change into something radically differente ( im not sure if calling this capitalism).
Our economic theory (liberal economics) decoupled energy and natural resources from the function of the economy and this mean all the economic theory and mechanisms are wrong and obsolete and we need to create a new economic system and theory.

I see theres a lot of people with interesting ideas trying to innovate with block chains technologies and crypto stuff.
But they are trying to integrate these technologies into the actual capitalist system.
I think the real potential is the opposite: Using these technologies for creating new kind of infrastructures that would allow communities and society to create a new  economic system parallel to capitalism that cannot be integrated to capitalism.
Using these technologies for building alternatives to capitalist system,  for example to create a new sustainable world.


what do you think?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 10:50:35 PM by tipon »

Offline tonyk

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Capitalism is a cancer that is destroying the planet.
Thats because its based on infinite growth.



Not big fan of Marks in this regard...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 11:01:04 PM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline tipon

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why? the speed of use of natural resources in capitalism goes much faster than the speed of regeneration of the earth.
These speed is always increasing.
The planet is not infinite.
Thats a destructive process.
Theres a contradiction between the need of infinite growth with the physical limits of the planet.

Now, how can we use blockchain technologies for fixing these?






Capitalism is a cancer that is destroying the planet.
Thats because its based on infinite growth.



Not big fan of Marks in this regard...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 11:12:13 PM by tipon »

Offline biophil

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Tipon, do you really think you're going to get anywhere around here denouncing capitalism? Have you not noticed that capitalism is a popular word on these forums?

Here's my suggestion: come up with some other word for the evil system you're describing. The word "capitalism" has too many meanings. To you, it means greedy unsustainable growth and development, but to a lot of people around here it means something much less sinister: something like "the concept that people should be able to own things freely without someone else violently taking them away."

I'm just trying to give you some friendly advice to help you get your point across better. I hate seeing people shooting themselves in the foot through poor choice of words.

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Offline tipon

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oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?




Tipon, do you really think you're going to get anywhere around here denouncing capitalism? Have you not noticed that capitalism is a popular word on these forums?

Here's my suggestion: come up with some other word for the evil system you're describing. The word "capitalism" has too many meanings. To you, it means greedy unsustainable growth and development, but to a lot of people around here it means something much less sinister: something like "the concept that people should be able to own things freely without someone else violently taking them away."

I'm just trying to give you some friendly advice to help you get your point across better. I hate seeing people shooting themselves in the foot through poor choice of words.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 11:29:48 PM by tipon »

Offline puppies

Tipon, do you really think you're going to get anywhere around here denouncing capitalism? Have you not noticed that capitalism is a popular word on these forums?

Here's my suggestion: come up with some other word for the evil system you're describing. The word "capitalism" has too many meanings. To you, it means greedy unsustainable growth and development, but to a lot of people around here it means something much less sinister: something like "the concept that people should be able to own things freely without someone else violently taking them away."

I'm just trying to give you some friendly advice to help you get your point across better. I hate seeing people shooting themselves in the foot through poor choice of words.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

When I feel a debate about capitalism coming, I always try to ask "whats your definition of capitalism?"  I often get "The system by which the rich oppress the poor in perpetual wage slavery"  or some variation.  To which I invariably reply "yeah man, I'm against that too"  I then try to steer the conversation in a more important direction like, When is it okay to use violence against your fellow man?  If i recall correctly Marx coined the term capitalism.  I say let them have their word if its that important to them.
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Offline bytemaster

Free enterprise may be a better option.


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Offline puppies

oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?



I'm all for cooperation.  as long as its the voluntary kind.  I think the idea that capitalism requires constant growth stems from two errors.  First is an inflationary monetary policy, and second is a confusion about what money is.  I would point you to Bastiat's what is money.  It was written in 1849 but still holds true to this day.  Ultimately value is subjective and the issue with capitalism is that it can lead to the erroneous belief that dollars are a measure of value, or that all value can be measured in dollars.  In other words some believe that everything is for sale.

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Offline tipon

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Yes, instead of a capitalist market based on competition what about a post-capitalist market based on cooperation created using blockchain technologies?

As I said before the actual Economic theory decoupled itself from nature ( thermodynamic processes) .
Since second world war there have been a constant growth of productivity in the world.
This growth implied also a growth of use of energetic and natural resources.
An economy that doesnt grow is an economy on crisis.
Capitalism is the only system in all our history that needs to growth for continuing existing.





oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?



I'm all for cooperation.  as long as its the voluntary kind.  I think the idea that capitalism requires constant growth stems from two errors.  First is an inflationary monetary policy, and second is a confusion about what money is.  I would point you to Bastiat's what is money.  It was written in 1849 but still holds true to this day.  Ultimately value is subjective and the issue with capitalism is that it can lead to the erroneous belief that dollars are a measure of value, or that all value can be measured in dollars.  In other words some believe that everything is for sale.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 11:52:10 PM by tipon »

Offline puppies

Yes, instead of a capitalist market based on competition what about a post-capitalist market based on cooperation created using blockchain technologies?

As I said before the actual Economic theory decoupled itself from nature ( thermodynamic processes) .
Since second world war there have been a constant growth of productivity in the world.
This growth implied also a growth of use of energetic and natural resources.
An economy that doesnt grow is an economy on crisis.
Capitalism is the only system in all our history that needs to growth for continuing existing.





oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?



I'm all for cooperation.  as long as its the voluntary kind.  I think the idea that capitalism requires constant growth stems from two errors.  First is an inflationary monetary policy, and second is a confusion about what money is.  I would point you to Bastiat's what is money.  It was written in 1849 but still holds true to this day.  Ultimately value is subjective and the issue with capitalism is that it can lead to the erroneous belief that dollars are a measure of value, or that all value can be measured in dollars.  In other words some believe that everything is for sale.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you man. 

I would point further back in time than WWII for a dramatic increase in productivity.  Maybe to the industrial revolution.  Or crop rotation, or even the domestication of animals.  I for one, am very happy to not be enduring the back breaking toil, on the brink of death that has characterized life for the majority of humans that have ever lived. 

When it comes to the use of natural resources, I believe that the biggest problems stem from the lack of protection of private property rights.  Not the opposite.  (not that I am suggesting a mandatory central authority to protect private property rights)

Are you speaking of growth as in an increase in the number next to a ledger balance, or an increase in the use of natural resources. 

Shouldn't we all be constantly attempting to grow our true wealth? (that is our subjective value of the things that meet our wants needs and desires)  Do you think this type of growth is wrong?

Have you ever heard of "I pencil"?
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Offline luckybit

As I've said on this forum in the past, inflation contributes to the thug mentality.

I define the thug mentality as the same sort of mentality you're talking about where people have to compete to survive, where resources are artificially made scarce to force people to compete using the most ruthless means they can, why does this happen?

People say inflation is a good thing because it causes people to spend money. But using inflation to cause people to spend money means people are going to be on a constant treadmill which requires them to earn money as fast (or faster) than they spend it. It makes it so people can only think about short term profits, it provides an incentive for people (corporations) to act psychopathic.

It's not capitalism which is the problem, it's the form of it that we have. And the reason we have this form of capitalism is because it was forced on us all without the option of letting us choose. People don't choose to be born rich or poor, nor do they choose to be desperate, but when people are both poor and desperate they do anything necessary to resolve their conditions.

Rich people who have property/wealth will do anything necessary to protect it. This is why rich people tend to want strong property rights to protect themselves from the have nots who want to either use the government to tax and redistribute the wealth to themselves, or who want to burglarize them.

The problem isn't the "ism", and it's not the people, it's the culture and the system which shapes the behavior. If you have capitalism but only social corporations are allowed to exist then all of the problems you mentioned wouldn't be problems with capitalism.

So my advice to you is to look at Bitshares as a politically neutral technology (just a tool like a hammer). Next look at how that politically neutral technology can help you solve a social problem. Focus on social enterprises, social capitalism, social entrepreneurship, because the Bitshares community is working hard to help empower people who want to use the tools of capitalism to solve the social ills of the world.

In fact, that is why I'm interested in Bitshares. I want to see a better world, and just going with the program set for us by the system is a path to failure for anyone who wants a better world. The system we have now isn't designed for producing a better world and the ism you use is irrelevant. If we used socialism then the socialism under this culture, using this system we have now, would be just as broken.

The reason I make that strong claim is because I think the source of all of these sorts of problems is that most people still are stuck in the industrial age with their thinking, their culture, their systems, institutions, schools, and until they move into the information age there isn't going to be positive change. Decentralized autonomous cooperatives will force the outdated thinking to adapt to the technological innovation and over time thinking will change just as it has with the Internet.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:23:40 AM by luckybit »
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Offline tipon

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Are you telling me that is possible to have a capitalist system withouth growth?


I think you are making a big big big mistake interpreting technologies as political neutral.

Technologies are NOT neutral !!!! Neutrality of technologies is part of the ideology of capitalism.




As I've said on this forum in the past, inflation contributes to the thug mentality.

I define the thug mentality as the same sort of mentality you're talking about where people have to compete to survive, where resources are artificially made scarce to force people to compete using the most ruthless means they can, why does this happen?

People say inflation is a good thing because it causes people to spend money. But using inflation to cause people to spend money means people are going to be on a constant treadmill which requires them to earn money as fast (or faster) than they spend it. It makes it so people can only think about short term profits, it provides an incentive for people (corporations) to act psychopathic.

It's not capitalism which is the problem, it's the form of it that we have. And the reason we have this form of capitalism is because it was forced on us all without the option of letting us choose. People don't choose to be born rich or poor, nor do they choose to be desperate, but when people are both poor and desperate they do anything necessary to resolve their conditions.

Rich people who have property/wealth will do anything necessary to protect it. This is why rich people tend to want strong property rights to protect themselves from the have nots who want to either use the government to tax and redistribute the wealth to themselves, or who want to burglarize them.

The problem isn't the "ism", and it's not the people, it's the culture and the system which shapes the behavior. If you have capitalism but only social corporations are allowed to exist then all of the problems you mentioned wouldn't be problems with capitalism.

So my advice to you is to look at Bitshares as a politically neutral technology (just a tool like a hammer). Next look at how that politically neutral technology can help you solve a social problem. Focus on social enterprises, social capitalism, social entrepreneurship, because the Bitshares community is working hard to help empower people who want to use the tools of capitalism to solve the social ills of the world.

In fact, that is why I'm interested in Bitshares. I want to see a better world, and just going with the program set for us by the system is a path to failure for anyone who wants a better world. The system we have now isn't designed for producing a better world and the ism you use is irrelevant. If we used socialism then the socialism under this culture, using this system we have now, would be just as broken.

The reason I make that strong claim is because I think the source of all of these sorts of problems is that most people still are stuck in the industrial age with their thinking, their culture, their systems, institutions, schools, and until they move into the information age there isn't going to be positive change. Decentralized autonomous cooperatives will force the outdated thinking to adapt to the technological innovation and over time thinking will change just as it has with the Internet.

Offline luckybit

Shouldn't we all be constantly attempting to grow our true wealth? (that is our subjective value of the things that meet our wants needs and desires)  Do you think this type of growth is wrong?

This is one thing that the Bitshares community seems to understand better than other communities with similar ideals. In order to do good in the world you have to actually generate new wealth. Value has to be created before it can be distributed.

So when people propose we just print unlimited amounts of money this just dilutes and then redistributes. It's the problem with Proof of Work.

Proof of Work once centralized begins to look exactly like what we see with Quantitative Easing. People close to the production of new money are the ones who benefit. Where is that new people going? The dollar gets diluted so that value can be transferred from group A to group B in a sneak manner. Instead of taxing everyone and giving money directly to these people (they couldn't do that due to Occupy protesting), they instead print money and give it to where? Banks?

I see this similar to mining where eventually a point is reached where the average person cannot mine anymore and the few who can still mine eventually act like vampires. The shares held by everyone get diluted as new coins are generated. The people close to the production of new money ultimately get it for a very low cost while everyone else has to buy it from them, earn it, or if they are trying to save money then it's diluted but given to the miners because of changes in the distribution.

If mining were truly decentralized we could tolerate it because it would make the Bitcoin protocol more secure. Mining is not decentralized anymore. This is the primary reason why when discussing airdrops I only want to see airdrops between Proof of Stake coins. Coins which are mined like Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, I might like and use these coins but there are a lot of miners who don't have to promote the coin, build anything, buy the coins, work for the coins, or make good trades, they just leave their machine on and pay the electric bill.

So they get way more coins than everyone else. If you do an airdrop with normal proportions you would reward centralization. So this is why I would say if you do airdrops to do it on Proof of Stake coins, and if you must airdrop Proof of Work then find some way to do it so that the people who hold the least proportions get the most rewards (if you can even figure out the proportions people hold).

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:37:43 AM by luckybit »
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Offline tonyk

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For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Your definition is still too close to Marks for me!
 I like growth: - what do you want 90% of the population still needed to produce the food (for much smaller population BTW); 256K ram and 1.25 KHz processors? (‘Why we will ever need more than 256K ram’ as once Bill Gates famously said…
I like competition - what do you want BM seeing the defects of Bitcoin and not trying to improve on it?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:37:16 AM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline puppies

As I've said on this forum in the past, inflation contributes to the thug mentality.

I define the thug mentality as the same sort of mentality you're talking about where people have to compete to survive, where resources are artificially made scarce to force people to compete using the most ruthless means they can, why does this happen?

People say inflation is a good thing because it causes people to spend money. But using inflation to cause people to spend money means people are going to be on a constant treadmill which requires them to earn money as fast (or faster) than they spend it. It makes it so people can only think about short term profits, it provides an incentive for people (corporations) to act psychopathic.

It's not capitalism which is the problem, it's the form of it that we have. And the reason we have this form of capitalism is because it was forced on us all without the option of letting us choose. People don't choose to be born rich or poor, nor do they choose to be desperate, but when people are both poor and desperate they do anything necessary to resolve their conditions.

Rich people who have property/wealth will do anything necessary to protect it. This is why rich people tend to want strong property rights to protect themselves from the have nots who want to either use the government to tax and redistribute the wealth to themselves, or who want to burglarize them.

The problem isn't the "ism", and it's not the people, it's the culture and the system which shapes the behavior. If you have capitalism but only social corporations are allowed to exist then all of the problems you mentioned wouldn't be problems with capitalism.

So my advice to you is to look at Bitshares as a politically neutral technology (just a tool like a hammer). Next look at how that politically neutral technology can help you solve a social problem. Focus on social enterprises, social capitalism, social entrepreneurship, because the Bitshares community is working hard to help empower people who want to use the tools of capitalism to solve the social ills of the world.

In fact, that is why I'm interested in Bitshares. I want to see a better world, and just going with the program set for us by the system is a path to failure for anyone who wants a better world. The system we have now isn't designed for producing a better world and the ism you use is irrelevant. If we used socialism then the socialism under this culture, using this system we have now, would be just as broken.

The reason I make that strong claim is because I think the source of all of these sorts of problems is that most people still are stuck in the industrial age with their thinking, their culture, their systems, institutions, schools, and until they move into the information age there isn't going to be positive change. Decentralized autonomous cooperatives will force the outdated thinking to adapt to the technological innovation and over time thinking will change just as it has with the Internet.

I'm right there with you buddy.  I might put a little more blame on centralized planning. I think it causes moral hazard which tends to cause people to devalue their fellow man.  Well stated post.
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