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Offline xeroc

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Unleashing the community
« on: May 15, 2014, 07:14:13 PM »

Earlier today I was depating a little with CLains and I'd like you to participate in our thinkings.

We were thinking whether we could rent a community server and decouple the BitShares community from invictus to have a real independent economy. atm we are all looking towards Dan and the rest of the Invictus Team all managed by BM.

My proposal would be to
1) rent a v-server for a few bucks a month (for the time beeing a small machine should be enough)
2) get the subdomain community.bitshares.org point to that server
3) set up service:
  - etherpad for collaboration (ie, live editing of the wikipedia article, documentations, etc...)
  - podcasts
  - a community magazine
  - technical howtos
  - market analysis
  - possibly webwallet (once we have once)
  - block explorer
  - financal descriptions
  - etc (feel free to add anything to the list)
.. all under community control
... all under one domain
... all paid by ...
 oh wait could setup a delegate to to earn money for the server. Maybe we can combine this with somthing like a community delegate (see https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4582.0)

What do you think? Worth a shot?

BTW. you can check out etherpad @ pad.xeroc.org (I set it up today fo testing purpose)
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2014, 07:16:59 PM »
If you guys are fine with the idea, maybe we can set up a donation address (PTS, BTC) with multi-sig (2-of-3) and start buying a v-server payed with bitcoin @ chunkhost.com (I tried it once, worked fine, payed with BTC)

I have plenty of knowledge on howto maintain a linux box and could quickly set up an apache server with etherpad and some static webpage (here some of you problably are more experience using i.e. bootstrap)
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Offline toast

Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 07:26:13 PM »
This is different from the current setup how? Invictus doesn't run this forum or the mumble server or the reddit or beyondbitcoin.fm, we rally around i3 and bm because they're actually doing stuff.

I think you should do your suggested activism activities first before finding them a home that feels less connected to i3. There is nothing to unleash, nobody was ever leashed!

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Offline toast

Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 07:34:28 PM »
If you guys are fine with the idea, maybe we can set up a donation address (PTS, BTC) with multi-sig (2-of-3) and start buying a v-server payed with bitcoin @ chunkhost.com (I tried it once, worked fine, payed with BTC)

I have plenty of knowledge on howto maintain a linux box and could quickly set up an apache server with etherpad and some static webpage (here some of you problably are more experience using i.e. bootstrap)

Collecting a community fund outside of AGS is a good idea but don't spend it on a vps before you have content to host. Spend it on the content itself.

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Offline xeroc

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2014, 07:52:51 PM »
Thanks for the kind tipps. Just wanted to try to gather some guys from the community and go active.

sure 3i and no one else ever tried to leash anybody .. But I feel the community is eager and activly wants to participate .. although not in coding .. but maybe in articles, postcast etc.

I do not want to create a 'new' community. Just a site to collect infos and concentrate the abilities of all community member.

Sure my idea can use heavy polishing but that why I post it here
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Offline Stan

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2014, 07:54:15 PM »
BitShares.org is NOT Invictus.

We created BitShares to be bigger than Invictus. To serve the whole industry.  It belongs to the community.

BitShares.org has had the Invictus brand purged from it except as one of many ordinary community members - even our Team roles are generic and the Team page includes many people outside of Invictus.

So there should be no point in creating something separate from BitShares. 
Decentralization from Invictus is what BitShares.org was created for.

 :)
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2014, 08:01:19 PM »
I like the suggestion about a community fund.

Offline Stan

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2014, 08:01:50 PM »
Thanks for the kind tipps. Just wanted to try to gather some guys from the community and go active.

sure 3i and no one else ever tried to leash anybody .. But I feel the community is eager and activly wants to participate .. although not in coding .. but maybe in articles, postcast etc.

I do not want to create a 'new' community. Just a site to collect infos and concentrate the abilities of all community member.

Sure my idea can use heavy polishing but that why I post it here

You are welcome to build up the existing BitShares forum and website with whatever content you produce.
No need to scatter your content elsewhere.  Lets make BitShares.org your one-stop shopping experience for all community content.   Just ask for site real estate and you shall receive.   :)
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Offline toast

Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2014, 08:03:06 PM »
sure 3i and no one else ever tried to leash anybody .. But I feel the community is eager and activly wants to participate .. although not in coding .. but maybe in articles, postcast etc.

I do not want to create a 'new' community. Just a site to collect infos and concentrate the abilities of all community member.

I will gladly host any content for free and cover small expenses out of pocket (but im afk a while starting in a few hours). It can go directly on the bitshares site or link from it, whatever you want. Also clains just got some pts for community bounties.

If the community is eager and actively wants to participate, do it! I just think the limiting factor is actually having ideas for what to do and manpower to do it. Prove me wrong with content.

What point were you debating with clains? Seems like his existing effort is exactly what you are describing.

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Offline xeroc

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2014, 08:19:22 PM »
@Stan, be it so .. bitshares.org is the community. acknowledged!

I will activly work on the bitshares.org webpage and look what parts I can expand.

I think working in a etherpad might get handy. I will give it a try and write down my thoughts.
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Offline toast

Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2014, 08:30:28 PM »
Might want to contact Brian since he has a WIP site rewrite going

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Offline CLains

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2014, 09:51:20 PM »
I kinda agree with both sides here. On the one hand there is so few active users, and the community is already so fragmented that there seems to be no point in having an alternative site. On the other hand, we do have the Beyond Bitcoin site, and if it be used for community-curated blogs, commentaries, articles, financial analysis, critiques etc. then it would relieve people in the community of the immense pressure I3 are coping with, by allowing them to make mistakes and voice their opinions without having to worry about the wikipedia-like standard of being flawless, fact-based and non-opinionated that we should apply to Bitshares.org content. In this vein I also think members of the I3 team could use such an alternative site under a pseudonym for spurious ideas they have regarding ideology, financial analysis, etc. that there is too much pressure on them to currently voice on the blog.
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2014, 02:25:29 AM »
They don't want to unleash the community, they have a very clear direction they're devoting resources and brain bandwidth too and the idea that anybody can do anything, that's just a vestigial limb at this point in the evolution.  Invictus was *going* to unleash the community back when we were all in it together mining for Protoshares working towards a january 1st blockchain launch. In those idealistic days the thought of selling a pre-mine like mastercoin did was viewed as unelegant and exploitative. 

Once angelshares started, the community became irrelevent because enough people were excited about bitshares that Angelshares was seeing success and they could salary themselves and do whatever they want with the funds.  This is why conferences became so important, people who go to conferences about Bitcoin have the resources to invest in Angelshares which is a pot of money that invictus has the keys too and does not want community input on how to spend. 

This would have been ok (inefficient, but OK) but invictus did not follow through with their plan and failed to do really anything to cultivate their nascent dac ecosystem, even "deferring" the Shark Tank DAC pitch event because of lack of interest from qualified participants   Have you been to a hackathon for Bitcoin or Ethereum?  There is absolutely no shortage of qualified applicants, Invictus has just failed to attract them.   

And when it didn't see success I'm sure Invictus is cycling into angelshares their own or their investors money.  They have said they have the right to do at advantageous times, which means when few other people are doing so. 

The folks are invictus are not bad people, they are engineers, out of their depth and have been short-sighted reactionary from the word go of this project. were very burned by their inability to deal with the popularity of Protoshares and then over-compensated from their 0% pre-mine to a 100% pre-mine if we're using the old parlance.

Angelshares was always a bad idea if the plan was for this to be a partnership with the community.  By taking the money from angelshares, you ask and incentivize us to delegate our ability to make things happen (i.e. pay a developer, invest in a project) because invictus already took most of the communities liquid investment funds but aren't doing what they said they would with them.  If you want to unleash the community, Invictus has to first think there is some value they haven't already extracted from it.  Mostly Invictus uses the forum for alpha testing, ideation and most importantly but least prioritized is damage control.   
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:29:23 AM by AdamBLevine »
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 02:49:23 AM »
They don't want to unleash the community, they have a very clear direction they're devoting resources and brain bandwidth too and the idea that anybody can do anything, that's just a vestigial limb at this point in the evolution.  Invictus was *going* to unleash the community back when we were all in it together mining for Protoshares working towards a january 1st blockchain launch. In those idealistic days the thought of selling a pre-mine like mastercoin did was viewed as unelegant and exploitative. 

Once angelshares started, the community became irrelevent because enough people were excited about bitshares that Angelshares was seeing success and they could salary themselves and do whatever they want with the funds.  This is why conferences became so important, people who go to conferences about Bitcoin have the resources to invest in Angelshares which is a pot of money that invictus has the keys too and does not want community input on how to spend. 

This would have been ok (inefficient, but OK) but invictus did not follow through with their plan and failed to do really anything to cultivate their nascent dac ecosystem, even "deferring" the Shark Tank DAC pitch event because of lack of interest from qualified participants   Have you been to a hackathon for Bitcoin or Ethereum?  There is absolutely no shortage of qualified applicants, Invictus has just failed to attract them.   

And when it didn't see success I'm sure Invictus is cycling into angelshares their own or their investors money.  They have said they have the right to do at advantageous times, which means when few other people are doing so. 

The folks are invictus are not bad people, they are engineers, out of their depth and have been short-sighted reactionary from the word go of this project. were very burned by their inability to deal with the popularity of Protoshares and then over-compensated from their 0% pre-mine to a 100% pre-mine if we're using the old parlance.

Angelshares was always a bad idea if the plan was for this to be a partnership with the community.  By taking the money from angelshares, you ask and incentivize us to delegate our ability to make things happen (i.e. pay a developer, invest in a project) because invictus already took most of the communities liquid investment funds but aren't doing what they said they would with them.  If you want to unleash the community, Invictus has to first think there is some value they haven't already extracted from it.  Mostly Invictus uses the forum for alpha testing, ideation and most importantly but least prioritized is damage control.

I honestly don't know why you bother visiting this forum and posting on here. There is so much obvious disconnect between your perfect bootstrap mining Utopia and Bitshares. Actually, I do know why you keep visiting: it's because you haven't found anything better. You're invested in this and you have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be something special. Well, so do I. Except that I don't rip it every chance I get. It's well documented that you have a difference of opinion on certain things; can you just move on and focus on some common ground or positive potential for once? If you could have built your perfect mining Utopia or interested anyone else in doing it, the thing would have been created a long time ago. Maybe you can spearhead a Bitshares voting DAC where everyone has an equal say in everything? With a coin to fund it that everyone can mine in their pajamas?

It costs $48 million per year in electricity costs to run Bitcoin. There was an analysis of NXT concluding that if it were operating at Bitcoin-scale, it would require $200,000 in energy costs annually. Traditional mining is an utter waste of money and resources. Some kind of Proof of Stake definitely is the way to go. I hope that Bytemaster's solution is the way to go; it's as good as anything I've heard about. It's testing well. Give it a chance.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Unleashing the community
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2014, 02:55:51 AM »
They don't want to unleash the community, they have a very clear direction they're devoting resources and brain bandwidth too and the idea that anybody can do anything, that's just a vestigial limb at this point in the evolution.  Invictus was *going* to unleash the community back when we were all in it together mining for Protoshares working towards a january 1st blockchain launch. In those idealistic days the thought of selling a pre-mine like mastercoin did was viewed as unelegant and exploitative. 

Once angelshares started, the community became irrelevent because enough people were excited about bitshares that Angelshares was seeing success and they could salary themselves and do whatever they want with the funds.  This is why conferences became so important, people who go to conferences about Bitcoin have the resources to invest in Angelshares which is a pot of money that invictus has the keys too and does not want community input on how to spend. 

This would have been ok (inefficient, but OK) but invictus did not follow through with their plan and failed to do really anything to cultivate their nascent dac ecosystem, even "deferring" the Shark Tank DAC pitch event because of lack of interest from qualified participants   Have you been to a hackathon for Bitcoin or Ethereum?  There is absolutely no shortage of qualified applicants, Invictus has just failed to attract them.   

And when it didn't see success I'm sure Invictus is cycling into angelshares their own or their investors money.  They have said they have the right to do at advantageous times, which means when few other people are doing so. 

The folks are invictus are not bad people, they are engineers, out of their depth and have been short-sighted reactionary from the word go of this project. were very burned by their inability to deal with the popularity of Protoshares and then over-compensated from their 0% pre-mine to a 100% pre-mine if we're using the old parlance.

Angelshares was always a bad idea if the plan was for this to be a partnership with the community.  By taking the money from angelshares, you ask and incentivize us to delegate our ability to make things happen (i.e. pay a developer, invest in a project) because invictus already took most of the communities liquid investment funds but aren't doing what they said they would with them.  If you want to unleash the community, Invictus has to first think there is some value they haven't already extracted from it.  Mostly Invictus uses the forum for alpha testing, ideation and most importantly but least prioritized is damage control.

Mostly incorrect explanations why things are the way they are, but an excellent description on the current state of affairs
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