BitShares PTS2 - Community Input Thread

[mf-tzo]

2 questions:

Will the PTS1 honor of PTS2 will happen in all the exchanges or do we need to move the PTS1 to our personal wallets?

Have all the exchanges been informed?

1 proposal for spending the remaining PTS:

I am not sure if this is possible without scaming the project with fake IDs since my IT knowledge is basic. Is it possible to use for example Kehotee founders as promoters of PTS2? For example if a kehotee founder refers a friend to download Kehotee the founder receives x PTS2 for his referral and the new user xPTS2 for free? I can keep explaining for ever to my friends about cryptocurrencies and no one will ever use it. But if I explain them that by doing this and that they get equivalent to $20 for free then they will try it! And explaining to our friends who know nothing about cryptos exactly the steps they have to do to claim their shares requires time so the one who is performing this should be also rewarded somehow.

My point is that we need to create a new market using future DACs with users who have money but are afraid or do not know how to use cryptos. Giving free money to those people will get their interest irrespective of their wealth. I don't know if you agree with me but rich people get more crazy about free money than poor people. My boss earns 5 times my salary and he negotiates a $1,000 bill to get a discount of $5.

We need to use the remaining PTS to attract also people outside the existing crypto users. It is time to expand. In the end of the day, attracting people outside the existing cryptospace by giving them free money can have only 2 consequences:

a) They learn what they got and most probably will not even bother to sell it. They will be just happy that they got something for free. Therefore PTS are not massively sold causing a fall in price. If they never ever use their share, it will be like burning the PTS and creating more dividends for the rest of us.

b) They learn what they got, get interested and inject more money in the system.

Win win situation!
 

[santaclause102]

My apologies to delulo, I hit the wrong button and lost his post.  Here's what I had in my paste buffer:

PTS2 will honor all shares of PTS one-for-one, with the remaining unmined PTS shares mapped to a "reverse angel" marketing fund to help grow the value of PTS2 - and all its children.'''
So this is just another way of saying "the unmined PTS will be added to the AGS funds. They will be used for the same purpose as the AGS funds which is to develope the ecosystem". Am I right there Stan? So I guess the spending of those PTS will also be included in the AGS spending spread sheets?

Unless we do something dead simple like a simple air drop snapshot to Dogecoin owners or something, then the funds will have to be targeted manually.  But reaching out to a broad group of new people or sponsoring contests and multiple good ideas can only really be done manually. 

The best way we know to do this is the BitShares Trust model - a public address and spreadsheet where everyone can see how the funds are being used.  The only difference is this address will have a shrinking balance as the funds are distributed - hence my "inverse angel" metaphor.

This is a good test of what we expect developers to do for most new DACs.  Any DAC that (wisely) sets aside a fund to develop, promote, and maintain itself (e.g. 45/45/10) will need to use a similar approach.  PTS2 is just the first protoDAC to demonstrate this approach.

We want to keep the funds separate from the AGS trust for one very big reason:

It is a dramatic way to illustrate the tangible benefits of moving away from mining.

Thanks for your clarifications Stan.

[santaclause102]

Stan: please then focus on marketing and describe you incentives so that everyone (espescially pot. Newcomers) understand your desicions .. otherwise i can see way they will not call it a premine!!

Have we considered a charity fund? maybe with a nlocktime?

stating in simple and clear words that this "premine" is used for marketing only is essentially important.

[graffenwalder]

All DACs have snapshots that honor something.
Upgrade DACs honor their predecessor.
New DACs honor their industry parent which honor PTS/AGS.
If a DAC is the first in a new industry, it honors PTS/AGS directly, just like XT did on February 28.

When an upgrade occurs it can be done either by hard fork if there is delegate consensus or as an alternative chain if not. 

When an alternative chain is offered, everybody gets shares in both via the snapshot mechanism.  As long as there are users for both, they can co-exist like Coke Classic and New Coke a few decades ago.  The expectation is that one or the other of the products will win and the other will fade to zero - but that is up to the market to decide.

Been sitting quietly on the sidelines watching this forum everyday. Recently there was a thread: Today I loose confidence in I3. I thought come on guys, just be patient some great products will come. And so far your logic always made sense.

But the coexistence of PTS and PTS2 just seems like a quick money scheme, the fact that you're considering to do this even before the AGS funding is over, makes me think you're having funding problems. Another million would be enough for now, but what will you come up with, when those funds have dried up?

For investors your making the deal more complicated than it already is, now they have to choose between holding PTS and PTS2, because DAC's can choose to honor either one

PTS will drop from the top 10 coin market list, because it has effectively lost half it's value.

Sorry to be cynical, I still believe in I3, but this just doesn't make any sense.

No money problems.  Our books are open for inspection.

We need to upgrade PTS because people have been complaining about how slow it is.

The logical upgrade that solves everything is DPOS.

DPOS frees up 300,000 that would have been needed to pay miners.

What do to with them is the question.

Not mining them (i.e. burning them) would give a 15% one time windfall to PTS holders even though it was AGS donations that made the DPOS breakthrough possible.

We think those savings from that R&D should be used to benefit everyone in our industry.

By calling attention to PTS and all the things its good for, we generate demand that we hope will grow the value of PTS and its children and therefore of AGS far more than any other plan we have heard.

PTS will climb on coinmarketcap as others learn what it is good for.  Other BitShares DACs will appear there too as the promotions generates demand for them.

Demand for increased marketing effort (and the desire by this community to be seen as generous) has been all over this forum for months.

We listened.

We came up with a plan that  would do all of the above.

We offer it as an alternative you can choose or reject.

Sorry for my rant this morning.

I wasn't aware that the PTS chain was crawling to a stand still, and that the PTS couldn't be upgraded to DPOS.

Sorry for doubting, faith is once again restored.

[fuzzy]

Going to use this post to remind everyone that there IS a Dev Voice Hangout coming this Saturday. 

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4638.0 Check the rest of the Beyond Bitcoin Sub-Forum if you are interested.  This would be a good place for quick information flow between the community and Invictus.  Decisions like these need to be talked about in detail and posted in a way that makes it easy for people to access the information.  We could find some format to do it in.  Pst me if interested in corralling people for this.

[JoeyD]

yes，they can。they shouldn`t sell over the pts 1.0 to the market ,and give future DACs to pts 1.0,and pts will die. let pts die naturally

The way I read it, Invictus wants pts 1.0 to die, but they can't tell you or force you what to do. So if the majority stubbornly loves PoW and sells off their DPoS pts 2.0, then the market will let pts 2.0 die, without Invictus being able to do anything about that. The community / market really will decide and if it chooses pts 1.0 over pts 2.0 then bitshares or Invictus has no choice but to honor that decision. Also future DAC developers will have to adapt to that situation as well.

I see that people are confused, but this is not the usual central planning kind of upgrade and even with traditional central planned monopolies upgrading can't be forced on the users. Look at MSWindows. How many versions have there been since WindowsXP, but a very significant amount has chosen to stick with XP despite all the power and centralization of the MS-corporation who are the sole owner of the closed source and control absolutely everything. That community choice has forced MS to change their plans and honor the wishes of their customers against their own wishes and reintroduce things like a start-button that does not distract or disrupt your work-flow.

In short, Invictus has no choice but to respect the wishes of the majority and if the majority/market wants PoW-pts 1.0 then that's that.  Even if Invictus wants it dead and buried the second pts 2.0 goes live, they have no real power over that decision, other than trying to persuade people and exchanges to go with pts 2.0.

[Mako]

To the Chinese community and Mess and any that I missed, do you realize that Invictus/Stan no longer have absolute control over PTS, because it is an opensource distributed network? So they no longer have the power to destroy or replace it with an upgrade, like an app in the appstore. Instead of screaming centralization and throwing around some rather serious allegations could you propose alternatives that would please you?

Incrementally updating PTS via consecutive hard forks and new wallets into the proposed DPOS PTS2.0 variant doesn't sound feasible to me. It would also take too long and cost too much.

They can't kill off PTS1, because they really can't, it's out of their hands, it is no longer theirs to kill.

So the quickest route to upgrade to DPOS (which is also the same as releasing the new tech you've been waiting for/investing in) is to go with the proposed snapshot-copy and release of PTS2.0 while effectively still leave all the power and choice to the community, because they do not have absolute control over you or the other participants. Now here's the thing with PoS, to work with the stake it needs to be there, you have to know the total amount to even be able to talk about a stake in the first place. So that leaves the issue with the remaining coins and how to solve that. What should be done with those extra coins that will give you the most return in the long run?

Distributing the remaining shares to PTS-holders is not fair to the would be miners, miningpools and electricity companies, because those are the one that would have earned that value. It also wouldn't be fair to all speculators, because they decided the price on the fact of there being a total of 2 million plus 1% inflation. It also isn't fair to AGS-investors, because they have really paid for the development of the tech and value of PTS and apparently misused it for speculation as well, which means the relative share-distribution can't change anymore either.

Distributing to AGS is unfair to PTS-holders.

So this leaves two options I can think of either distribute to both AGS and PTS holders evenly or use it in marketing and adding more value to your current investment. Pumping up the value of your worthless shares instead of giving you more worthless shares, doesn't sound to bad. As long as it doesn't pay for wages it sounds like Mess would be okay with it.

I'm not meaning to offend, but it sure does sound like people are complaining for all the wrong reasons and actually trying to hurt themselves more than they realize.

yes，they can。they shouldn`t sell over the pts 1.0 to the market ,and give future DACs to pts 1.0,and pts will die. let pts die naturally

[DonJoe]

Stan, can you answer my question here

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4658.0

[Agent86]

How about making a SIMPLE voting DAC to vote on how this money should be spent?

Please see this thread for a potential long term solution on how to vote on how community money is spent:

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4660.msg59152#msg59152

basically people can vote on the block chain using their stake in the same way we vote for delegates.  Except employees can issue new shares to fund projects and spend on promotion or development.  (You delegate to someone you trust to make decisions on how to spend community money)

[JoeyD]

Sure.. practical .. but the 15% premine issue persists.

I am afraid of the public opinion calling these 15% a premine (which its is, if 3i holds the privkey)   thus will tank the price imo.

We should really consider a community fund.

+die pts1 ... die!!!
+pts2 .. tha moon ;-)

Then don't call it premine, since it isn't. Postmine? Community fund? How about making a SIMPLE voting DAC to vote on how this money should be spent?

I doubt that would change much, because you will have to decide who gets the vote and you have the same problem all over again.

@Vendetta Most of your points have been answered already. What language do you post in usually? Maybe there is a forum member who could translate.

[donkeypong]

Sure.. practical .. but the 15% premine issue persists.

I am afraid of the public opinion calling these 15% a premine (which its is, if 3i holds the privkey)   thus will tank the price imo.

We should really consider a community fund.

+die pts1 ... die!!!
+pts2 .. tha moon ;-)

Then don't call it premine, since it isn't. Postmine? Community fund? How about making a SIMPLE voting DAC to vote on how this money should be spent?

[JakeThePanda]

Stan: please then focus on marketing and describe you incentives so that everyone (espescially pot. Newcomers) understand your desicions .. otherwise i can see way they will not call it a premine!!

Have we considered a charity fund? maybe with a nlocktime?

Ok, now we are getting to the topic I was trying to get started!   

There have been many ideas discussed on this forum during the past few months

General categories:

• Airdrop to other communities.
• Donations to the Jamaican Bobsled Team or World Peace.
• Teaming with another community that specializes in buzz.
• Huge ad campaigns.
• Give major opinion makers a free stake.
• Offer incentives for getting involved - download wallets and/or Keyhotee
• DAC-specific promotions - e.g. prizes every week for the best new BitShares ME offering.
• Elon Musk's viral method of $10 for every new Keyhotee user an existing Keyhotee user recruits
• Insert your favorite category here...

We are looking for great ideas and hope to come up with a potent mix.

It looks like a great plan. Airdrop to other coins could considerably expand our community. But which ones should be the selected? BTC, LTC and PPC have good reputation, and are well distributed. They might be the reasonable targets.

I don't know.  It would be very difficult to get the word out to every BTC holder.  Such a large % of the airdrop would be wasted sitting in limbo until they figured out free PTS were given out and that could realistically be never.

[Vendetta]

i have never paste in english, but i will try my best to convene my opinions here.

i simply surmise it is the lengthy word caused such chaos in community.

what ever we call it. switch/change over or anything else, it happened everyday recently.

from pow to pos, or double-spend-then-change-over among alto-shit-coins.

they done it quick and easily. simply ask exchanges to halt the old coins market and do the switch and then move to new coin market.

but we cause a lot of confuse now.

why we keep Pts if we change over to pts2?

do you want to newbies to buy pts on market without intrisic value? i suppose we will have moved to pts2/ags eco-system by then.

that market strategy will just hurt 3i image further.

can we just fanthom our wording before any official annoucement and giving the market some plug-and-play solution.

and why do we have to change the name from pts to pts2.

it will be very easy to understand for anyone to tell that we are transfer pts to next stage, adopting newly launch DPOS.

i hope i made my thoughts clear and loud.

[Harvey]

Stan: please then focus on marketing and describe you incentives so that everyone (espescially pot. Newcomers) understand your desicions .. otherwise i can see way they will not call it a premine!!

Have we considered a charity fund? maybe with a nlocktime?

Ok, now we are getting to the topic I was trying to get started!   

There have been many ideas discussed on this forum during the past few months

General categories:

• Airdrop to other communities.
• Donations to the Jamaican Bobsled Team or World Peace.
• Teaming with another community that specializes in buzz.
• Huge ad campaigns.
• Give major opinion makers a free stake.
• Offer incentives for getting involved - download wallets and/or Keyhotee
• DAC-specific promotions - e.g. prizes every week for the best new BitShares ME offering.
• Elon Musk's viral method of $10 for every new Keyhotee user an existing Keyhotee user recruits
• Insert your favorite category here...

We are looking for great ideas and hope to come up with a potent mix.

It looks like a great plan. Airdrop to other coins could considerably expand our community. But which ones should be the selected? BTC, LTC and PPC have good reputation, and are well distributed. They might be the reasonable targets.

[muse-umum]

To proof dpos we need a working dpos chain ... so we also need the wallet

I know.

But I am not clear about what exactly Stan meant. There are so many terms which can easily cause confusion.

The 'XT' may be the XT wallet and P2P network based on DPOS that will be released in the coming weeks, and also may be the whole XT product that will be after Me in the coming months.

So which one？

I think you might be confusing Bitshares XT with Bitshares X.  Bitshares XT is the soon to be released "test" chain (that is what the T stands for) for the final product Bitshares X.

Thanks. I REALLY DID get confused.

 -5%