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Offline CLains

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Masterplan
« on: June 01, 2014, 01:23:32 AM »

A masterplan would let localized efforts coordinate around known, anticipated events. Without anticipation there can be no unified action. Anticipations without actions are empty, but actions without anticipations are blind.

The idea I propose is to get a masterplan where all events are given approximate timings and are explained in clear terms (non-technical) such that the wider impact of that event is both predictable and understandable for all corners of the Bitshares Ecosystem as well as to any outsider.

Each member (of I3) and contributor to Bitshares should contribute their 2-3 month agendas to a giant masterplan. This would increase investor confidence, organize the community around milestones, sharpen promotional efforts, and allow us to predicts complex outcomes before they happen.

Perhaps we can use the pads for this? It does not have to be anything fancy.

I am just thinking, for instance, proximate timings for when Toast will complete various stages of the .p2p DAC, when the newsletter is coming out, when and who will participate in various conferences and interviews, when Brian will update the various sections of the webpage, when are the next mumble sessions and who will participate, who is trying to spread our message on btctalk and reddit and facebook and what is their plan for doing so and will it coincide with the launch of the products, and what stages of testing are we in with respect to bitshares XT and how long until things will get to this and that stage of user friendliness, etc.etc.

What do you guys think? Again, it would all be in one place, it would be non-technical and it would spell out motivations behind the anticipated actions. It would also serve as a quick, transparent review of the who's who? and what is going on? in the Bitshares Ecosystem.
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 02:20:07 AM »
I love your suggestion. It would be great to have this all in one place. Given how finicky people are about 'missed deadlines', though, I might suggest avoiding hard dates. These could be expressed as "estimated time to completion: 2-4 months", etc. (using an accurate estimate; mine is just an example) for each item. I agree that it would improve confidence and morale to have this all in one place, even one big chart rather than a full-sized Master Plan.

Brainstorming some possible formats:

--Master Plan (Having worked on Master Plans before, I believe that the best such plans are living documents. These contain important goals and goalposts, but the content and metrics leave some room for flexibility. In other words, if DAC A is anticipated in 2 months, but encounters an unexpected programming hurdle, or if a decision is made to introduce DAC B before DAC A for certain reasons, then those changes can be written in as the document is updated to suit changing times.)

--Chart w/rough timelines

--Wiki, blog, or some organic document that DAC developers themselves could edit to update the info for their sections

--Recurring feature in the newsletter which notes each DAC's development team, progress, and prognosis

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 02:43:13 AM »
Brainstorm the specific situations and outcomes you want to occur or exist, then create a contest where the winner is whoever makes that desired outcome a reality.

If you try to tell people how they should do things you don't know how to do yourself, you're just setting up failure further down the line.  Create incentives that allow those who do know to realize it's in their best interest to do that thing.  no deadlines so no worries about missing them.  Whomever can do it is incentivized to do it as quickly as possible, so the only challenge is advertising the contests.  In theory, people should be excited to solve the problem and compete for the prize.
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Offline JoeyD

Re: Masterplan
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 07:09:52 AM »
If I understand you correctly CLains you're not exactly proposing a masterplan in the traditional sense and not trying to tell people what to do, but more a set of game theory like focal points, which I think is a great idea especially especially when communication and information is limited. I also suggested something similar for the mumble-sessions, but your over arching approach is even better.

Just creating a number of those focal points and communicating them effectively and clearly, without much fluff should work splendidly. I also think they should be broad enough to not limit attention into one particular area or solution in order to prevent tunnel vision, which in my opinion is a common outcome (there could even be situations where tunnel vision is desired when focused attention and effort is desired). Also as you suggested those focal points do need some planning and logistics plus some clearly defined subjects and a physical presence in the form of developers or very knowledgeable community members in order to actually be able to draw people in.

I also agree that it doesn't need to be fancy, just easily accessible, clear and to the point, however it does need to be brought to peoples attention and as big an audience as possible.

There is one big risk though. I do not think this plan should be editable by large numbers of random people, because even your average troll would love to mess with such a plan, especially if it allows them to mess with the minds of a large number of people.

Btw I think these issues will need to be worked out by each and every DAC separately as well. Looking at some of the posts on this forum I've noticed that there are too many people thinking about DACs not as decentralized communication and interaction networks, but really as companies in the traditional sense where they expect to receive some kind of finished product and be able to bitch at customer service. This looks to be a completely new field to explore and goes against a large number of traditional management ideas and culture.

Before I go off topic too much (and I really want to) I'll pull it right back into your plan and make a suggestion as central topic around a focalpoint/meet-up/conference/hangout/whatever: How can decentralized planning and management work effectively?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 07:11:57 AM by JoeyD »

Offline gamey

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 11:16:51 AM »
Brainstorm the specific situations and outcomes you want to occur or exist, then create a contest where the winner is whoever makes that desired outcome a reality.

If you try to tell people how they should do things you don't know how to do yourself, you're just setting up failure further down the line.  Create incentives that allow those who do know to realize it's in their best interest to do that thing.  no deadlines so no worries about missing them.  Whomever can do it is incentivized to do it as quickly as possible, so the only challenge is advertising the contests.  In theory, people should be excited to solve the problem and compete for the prize.

Honestly not trying to troll here, but speaking from firsthand experience this leads to duplicate work and hurt feelings.  If i am going to do something and am "competing" for it then I want the final payment to be considerably more than if I was directly paid to do it.  That is simply to make up for the times you lose. I don't think they do this in real companies and it takes a bit of irrationality for it to work in these places.

Nothing sucks more than to write code for weeks then have someone snatch out the prize from under you.  Nothing I'd ever wish to deal with again.  So many subjective factors go into awarding the prize too.  Person A is done first, but B comes in 2 days later with a lot better job.  Both meets spec.  Which should get the prize ?  etc... meh..   Yes, you don't miss deadlines, but worse you are scooped and get zilch!  (I'm re-appropriating scooped)
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Offline CLains

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 11:58:38 AM »
If you try to tell people how they should do things you don't know how to do yourself, you're just setting up failure further down the line.

To be clear, the idea here is that all the people who already have plans report and explain them to a general audience within a unified, living document. As for what you said, I agree.

If I understand you correctly CLains you're not exactly proposing a masterplan in the traditional sense and not trying to tell people what to do

Yes. Not sure what a better name would be. What about Bitshares Schedules?

There is one big risk though. I do not think this plan should be editable by large numbers of random people, because even your average troll would love to mess with such a plan, especially if it allows them to mess with the minds of a large number of people.

Yes. That is a problem we need to solve.

How can decentralized planning and management work effectively?

In the spirit of better is good enough for now the idea is that people will be able to manage themselves and take on suitable roles IF they know what everyone else is doing and what their plans are. At least without this condition it is impossible to decentralize organization.

It would be great to have this all in one place. Given how finicky people are about 'missed deadlines', though, I might suggest avoiding hard dates....

--Master Plan (Having worked on Master Plans before, I believe that the best such plans are living documents. These contain important goals and goalposts, but the content and metrics leave some room for flexibility. In other words, if DAC A is anticipated in 2 months, but encounters an unexpected programming hurdle, or if a decision is made to introduce DAC B before DAC A for certain reasons, then those changes can be written in as the document is updated to suit changing times.)

Agree. 100%

--Chart w/rough timelines ...
--Recurring feature in the newsletter which notes each DAC's development team, progress, and prognosis

Yes, we should do this as well. Especially, once we have it all in once place, we can make abstracts for specific purposes like the newsletter and visualizations for marketing purposes etc.

--Wiki, blog, or some organic document that DAC developers themselves could edit to update the info for their sections

Wiki are better for documentation and specifics, blogs for unique written content. I vote for organic, living document of some sort; it would be a living set of schemas that lets anyone understand the gist and motivation behind every action and anticipated action; documentation, specifics, and unique written content can be referenced by neat links to wiki, blogs, github, threads, etc.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 07:09:06 PM by CLains »
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Offline jae208

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 07:22:09 PM »
Brainstorm the specific situations and outcomes you want to occur or exist, then create a contest where the winner is whoever makes that desired outcome a reality.

If you try to tell people how they should do things you don't know how to do yourself, you're just setting up failure further down the line.  Create incentives that allow those who do know to realize it's in their best interest to do that thing.  no deadlines so no worries about missing them.  Whomever can do it is incentivized to do it as quickly as possible, so the only challenge is advertising the contests.  In theory, people should be excited to solve the problem and compete for the prize.

Honestly not trying to troll here, but speaking from firsthand experience this leads to duplicate work and hurt feelings.  If i am going to do something and am "competing" for it then I want the final payment to be considerably more than if I was directly paid to do it.  That is simply to make up for the times you lose. I don't think they do this in real companies and it takes a bit of irrationality for it to work in these places.

Nothing sucks more than to write code for weeks then have someone snatch out the prize from under you.  Nothing I'd ever wish to deal with again.  So many subjective factors go into awarding the prize too.  Person A is done first, but B comes in 2 days later with a lot better job.  Both meets spec.  Which should get the prize ?  etc... meh..   Yes, you don't miss deadlines, but worse you are scooped and get zilch!  (I'm re-appropriating scooped)


The prize incentive does work actually. We aren't the only ones that are working towards Bitcion 2.0 technologies. The prizes get awarded to whoever
Completes a goal first and it is not limited to just this forum.

Look up Peter Diamandis and his x-prize foundation.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 08:13:20 PM »
Brainstorm the specific situations and outcomes you want to occur or exist, then create a contest where the winner is whoever makes that desired outcome a reality.

If you try to tell people how they should do things you don't know how to do yourself, you're just setting up failure further down the line.  Create incentives that allow those who do know to realize it's in their best interest to do that thing.  no deadlines so no worries about missing them.  Whomever can do it is incentivized to do it as quickly as possible, so the only challenge is advertising the contests.  In theory, people should be excited to solve the problem and compete for the prize.

Honestly not trying to troll here, but speaking from firsthand experience this leads to duplicate work and hurt feelings.  If i am going to do something and am "competing" for it then I want the final payment to be considerably more than if I was directly paid to do it.  That is simply to make up for the times you lose. I don't think they do this in real companies and it takes a bit of irrationality for it to work in these places.

Nothing sucks more than to write code for weeks then have someone snatch out the prize from under you.  Nothing I'd ever wish to deal with again.  So many subjective factors go into awarding the prize too.  Person A is done first, but B comes in 2 days later with a lot better job.  Both meets spec.  Which should get the prize ?  etc... meh..   Yes, you don't miss deadlines, but worse you are scooped and get zilch!  (I'm re-appropriating scooped)


The prize incentive does work actually. We aren't the only ones that are working towards Bitcion 2.0 technologies. The prizes get awarded to whoever
Completes a goal first and it is not limited to just this forum.

Look up Peter Diamandis and his x-prize foundation.

You're right.  It isn't that it doesn't work, but the bounty system has a LOT of flaws.  People who are not in the role of making the decision on who to pay the bounty or those trying to get the bounty don't see these issues. They definitely exist. That doesn't mean that it won't produce results.  It just means that the incentive structure doesn't necessarily produce the best outcome that one might guess.  Everyone thinks it seems like an idea that maximizes the effectiveness of the freemarket.  This isn't true.

I'll repeat the example.  You put out a contest and a spec.  FIrst person to meet spec gets the prize.  (you really have to be objective).  So first guy beats second guy, but second guy had far superior product.  Well what do you do?  Split it ? That wasn't the rules.  Pay #1 when you want to use #2's code ?   You're stuck either paying #1 and having the inferior code, or paying #2 and #1 etc.  It can easily become a mess.  There are a lot of variations on the outcome that basically show a very ineffective allocation of dev resources.  Yes bounties get stuff done, but not necessarily in an efficient manner.
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Offline jae208

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 10:59:22 PM »
Brainstorm the specific situations and outcomes you want to occur or exist, then create a contest where the winner is whoever makes that desired outcome a reality.

If you try to tell people how they should do things you don't know how to do yourself, you're just setting up failure further down the line.  Create incentives that allow those who do know to realize it's in their best interest to do that thing.  no deadlines so no worries about missing them.  Whomever can do it is incentivized to do it as quickly as possible, so the only challenge is advertising the contests.  In theory, people should be excited to solve the problem and compete for the prize.

Honestly not trying to troll here, but speaking from firsthand experience this leads to duplicate work and hurt feelings.  If i am going to do something and am "competing" for it then I want the final payment to be considerably more than if I was directly paid to do it.  That is simply to make up for the times you lose. I don't think they do this in real companies and it takes a bit of irrationality for it to work in these places.

Nothing sucks more than to write code for weeks then have someone snatch out the prize from under you.  Nothing I'd ever wish to deal with again.  So many subjective factors go into awarding the prize too.  Person A is done first, but B comes in 2 days later with a lot better job.  Both meets spec.  Which should get the prize ?  etc... meh..   Yes, you don't miss deadlines, but worse you are scooped and get zilch!  (I'm re-appropriating scooped)


The prize incentive does work actually. We aren't the only ones that are working towards Bitcion 2.0 technologies. The prizes get awarded to whoever
Completes a goal first and it is not limited to just this forum.

Look up Peter Diamandis and his x-prize foundation.

You're right.  It isn't that it doesn't work, but the bounty system has a LOT of flaws.  People who are not in the role of making the decision on who to pay the bounty or those trying to get the bounty don't see these issues. They definitely exist. That doesn't mean that it won't produce results.  It just means that the incentive structure doesn't necessarily produce the best outcome that one might guess.  Everyone thinks it seems like an idea that maximizes the effectiveness of the freemarket.  This isn't true.

I'll repeat the example.  You put out a contest and a spec.  FIrst person to meet spec gets the prize.  (you really have to be objective).  So first guy beats second guy, but second guy had far superior product.  Well what do you do?  Split it ?

That wasn't the rules.  Pay #1 when you want to use #2's code ?   You're stuck either paying #1 and having the inferior code, or paying #2 and #1 etc.  It can easily become a mess.  There are a lot of variations on the outcome that basically show a very ineffective allocation of dev resources.  Yes bounties get stuff done, but not necessarily in an efficient manner.

I'll admit that I don't have the answers but I believe that Peter Diamandis and the x prize foundation would be a good place to start and I also admit that I haven't looked at how his organization works at great detail. However, it seems to me that they are generating results through this structure.

I remember reading a post from Adam where he writes about awarding a prize to the first successful third party DAC that honors the social consensus and is and remains profitable for 3 months. Don't quote me word for word but I think that is what he said, I can't find the thread or post at the moment. I thought and still think that that was a great idea and a win-win-win scenario for everyone involved. Also, if helping to grow a crypto-equity industry is the goal this may actually be a very efficient way to do so. As for the 'losers' they aren't really losers because even though they didn't get the prize they still have their code and can still implement their DAC and if they are better then the one to win the prize money then the free market will flock over to the 'loser' because it offers a better service.
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Offline gamey

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 12:08:45 AM »
I'll admit that I don't have the answers but I believe that Peter Diamandis and the x prize foundation would be a good place to start and I also admit that I haven't looked at how his organization works at great detail. However, it seems to me that they are generating results through this structure.

I remember reading a post from Adam where he writes about awarding a prize to the first successful third party DAC that honors the social consensus and is and remains profitable for 3 months. Don't quote me word for word but I think that is what he said, I can't find the thread or post at the moment. I thought and still think that that was a great idea and a win-win-win scenario for everyone involved. Also, if helping to grow a crypto-equity industry is the goal this may actually be a very efficient way to do so. As for the 'losers' they aren't really losers because even though they didn't get the prize they still have their code and can still implement their DAC and if they are better then the one to win the prize money then the free market will flock over to the 'loser' because it offers a better service.

There are a lot of things to consider and each situation will be unique.  In your mention of Adam's proposal, the difference would be that the developers still have their DAC and the shares of their DAC when done.  Now if you put up bounties for things that do not direct benefit to their creator, then it likely won't be a win-win for everyone involved if multiple people compete for the same bounty.  That is because the time spent on the lost bounty comes with an opportunity cost where the dev could have made money elsewhere.  So it becomes more like a win-win-lose.
 
I think the DAC reward idea to be a lot more reasonable.  Just don't go applying the concept of bounties/contests to everything blindly and expect it to work equally.  THat would be my point.
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 04:14:45 AM »
The goal is not for the bounty to reward everyone who makes the attempt, but rather to encourage everyone to make the attempt where otherwise they might not. 

Creating a DAC and succeeding is not a zero sum game where all other DACs must necessarily fail, so our challenge is merely to catalyze them towards developing their vision in OUR ecosystem rather than in somebody elses.

Here's the post for full details, although note it was a proposal so the intention and outcome are far more important than actual implementation details.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3363.0
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Offline jae208

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Re: Masterplan
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 05:33:26 AM »
The goal is not for the bounty to reward everyone who makes the attempt, but rather to encourage everyone to make the attempt where otherwise they might not. 

Creating a DAC and succeeding is not a zero sum game where all other DACs must necessarily fail, so our challenge is merely to catalyze them towards developing their vision in OUR ecosystem rather than in somebody elses.

Here's the post for full details, although note it was a proposal so the intention and outcome are far more important than actual implementation details.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=3363.0

 +5%

I completely agree with the last two sentences. The end result is what really matters.

In my view it benefits everyone involved for several reasons

Ags/Pts Investors

benefit because there are now more DACs being worked on simultaneously by different people across
continents thus investor's holdings yield compound interest because in order to win equity has to go to PTS/AGS holders

also, since I3 has their own chunk of Ags/Pts holdings the value of their holdings would increase as well which results in greater funds for them to help grow the industry

DAC developers

benefit because although they can't all win perhaps they were already working on DACs or thinking about
working on DACs and the prize money might just be something nice and extra they use to reinvest in themselves, take as bonuses or whatever they wish to do

I3 & Customers

I already mentioned that I3 would ultimately have greater funds to help grow the industry

the customer or end user of these services also benefit because greater competition increases the quality of these DACs
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Offline GaltReport

Re: Masterplan
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 11:07:05 AM »
A masterplan would let localized efforts coordinate around known, anticipated events. Without anticipation there can be no unified action. Anticipations without actions are empty, but actions without anticipations are blind.

The idea I propose is to get a masterplan where all events are given approximate timings and are explained in clear terms (non-technical) such that the wider impact of that event is both predictable and understandable for all corners of the Bitshares Ecosystem as well as to any outsider.

Each member (of I3) and contributor to Bitshares should contribute their 2-3 month agendas to a giant masterplan. This would increase investor confidence, organize the community around milestones, sharpen promotional efforts, and allow us to predicts complex outcomes before they happen.

Perhaps we can use the pads for this? It does not have to be anything fancy.

...

I  have used Quad charts a lot  for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_chart

It takes some time to agree on a format but once you do it's pretty easy to regularly update them.  Each "team" would have one slide to provide  regular updates.

Offline JoeyD

Re: Masterplan
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2014, 06:34:27 PM »
Biggest issue is that the pad obviously isn't going to work if things get even moderately more active. To me it certainly looks like there will be quite a few DACs coming out in close succession, which I think will make the pad unworkable very quickly. Another issue is how to regulate access and who has to continuously edit the information. I expect that it will quickly become the work of a single person who might not be informed enough about the projects he's trying to keep track of. Best thing in my pov would be that the projects manage their own entries.

I'm not that familiar with the available online collaboration tools, so it would be nice if some people have suggestions in that field.  The easiest solution I can think of right now is a shared-calender (similar to the google one) where people/projects can add/edit their own entry, which they also would have to update themselves. At the very least I think it wouldn't hurt to have a central hub with links pointing to the more detailed information or websites of the projects that have announced their plans/intentions on that hub.

Working out how to do collaboration and coordination around a DAC is something that will need to be talked and thought about and it is not a particularly straightforward or easy topic at all. Getting separate people to convene and cooperate in the traditional sense is already not the easiest thing in the world and we're talking anything but traditional in this space. From the top of my head I can think of 3 or 4 areas that might have platforms or solutions that could be of use here and things I'm interested in looking into. I'll list my plans here in the hopes of triggering a conversation or discussion around them, if anyone has any relevant information or links I'd be happy to hear/read from you.
  • Maybe look at successful online communities like multiplayer-game-guilds and see what methods and solutions they use. I have no experience with mmorpgs and online-game communities, but I do know that those communities have large overlaps with the crypto-ecosystem and they also represent big business and sometimes high levels of professionalism
  • Read up what the military has published and worked out in this field. Like it or not, but personally I think way to many people are not realizing the wealth of information and solutions that are available there. Even if you're opposed to the army and its wasting of funds, that should not keep you from getting some value out of it.
  • New concepts in management dealing with flat organizations and often under the name of virtual corporation that deal with outsourcing and cooperating often digitally or geologically separated.
  • Other succesful and professional(as in feeding people working there) open-source projects and see what they are doing and have worked out.

This does not need to be limited to this forum and may even be topics for discussion or interviews on something like the BeyondBitcoin-mumble-sessions or the show. The reason I'm suggesting getting interviews or talking to experts, is because digging through the crap to get to the meat of things or the rare gems of wisdom can be a daunting and laborious task in my experience, made all the more difficult by jargon and fluff that seems to be so loved in "management". Oh and beware of the endless powerpoint-presentations, I think I've developed a nervous twitch whenever I hear the word powerpoint.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Masterplan
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2014, 07:28:59 PM »
Oh, you just reminded me...Ill put a powerpoint slideshow together to provide an overview of the solutiins once hashed out. Hey joey, u want to brief?  :D
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