Charles Hoskinson Left Ethereum?

[santaclause102]

Can you expand and be specific about what you mean here?

The point is guys that Dan invented IPO in a box. I was pointing out that it shouldn't be wasted on low hanging fruit like music and  lottery games.

What DACs should DPOS be applied to instead? If not a DAC but a brick and mortar business what advantages does it have to manage the IPO, board voting rights etc. with DPOS (apart from it being illegal to do an IPO (real IPO with hard promises) without a lot of additional (legal) work)

[gamey]

I did lol a bit.

I just want to hear good reasons for why someone supports POW at this point.   Not really POW vs POS, just expecting thorough reasoning.  Charles, you put so much thought into your words that I expect only the best.  I don't argue with everyone, just those of which I have high expectations.  If such a person says something that doesn't make sense to me or seems wrong, I like to engage them.  Thats why I ended up here.  Blame it on Dan.

Yanno, you don't meet people like Charles at the local watering hole.....

[tonyk]

I have not made even a step in that direction...

Feel free to say where and how you disagree with me....

[charleshoskinson]

The charles hoskinson left ethereum thread has become the PoW versus PoS thread

[gamey]

This isn't correct.  POS gives a great deal more flexibility to distribution.  Theoretically you do not have to distribute all coins on day one.  The distribution allowed by POS is way more flexible than you seem to believe.  In fact I could write a chain that just paid out to hashers who didn't provide security, if I chose.  I would actually have to buy-in to the belief that somehow miners are a more valued way to distribute coins to consider such silliness, but it is at least possible.

With POW you do not have near this flexibility.  POW defines both security and distribution for the most part.  This isn't near the case with POS.  POW miners do not necessarily have incentives aligned with helping the network, so I can't begin to fathom why you think distributing to them is better

If the people who have all the power are coin holders, then why would coin holders accept deterioration of their holdings to broaden distribution? I agree one could develop all kinds of schemes with PoS to handle distribution differently from a 100 percent premine; however, no one seems to have done so at the moment with any degree of success.

For the record, I really dislike PoW in its current form. I think rewards ought to be connected to network maintenance, upgrades, increases in interoperability and driving adoption. At the very least, it would be nice to develop a socially beneficial PoW doing something like folding proteins, unfortunately that whole O(n) -> O(1) requirement is a pain in the ass.   

The authors of the code have the most power.  If open sourced then they give up a great deal of power, but they're by far the most powerful group in any DAC.  It would not be up to coin owners to determine distribution unless the code is  written to do so.

So you really dislike POW in its current form, but you find it preferable to POS because it distributes coins in a marginally better way which is the same way you really dislike ?  Interesting.

[tonyk]

Ugg - All I want is a killer financial system (well, and a revolution in the music industry)

I've been building it one step at a time. With Bitshares you have the best new stock market and IPO system. Ethereum explores how to deploy smart contracts. What if we had efficient atomic cross chain pegging. Then you could link all those BitUSD together. If only there was a venture to bundle everything together

charleshoskinson the venture that bundles everything together! 

If I am Dan I will take this deal... for 98% (of 22,500 BTC) of their IPO

I really do not want to undervalue your effort to collect that much more money. I know it is hard, very hard.

My point is that Ether and Bitshares X will not likely fail (if they do) because the product was not well financed, i.e in a result of not being well developed (coded).
 Either of them will fail because the core ideas were not workable. Not meant to work in the real world.

[charleshoskinson]

Storage is what's getting in the way of atomic cross chain trading? Can you elaborate, not sure I follow

It's basically like having a trusted data feed telling you who owns what without having to store it locally. Smart contracts can be a cross chain trustless escrow bridge.  The maidsafe network would effectively be replacing a trusted server.

[carpet ride]

What would we need for such a venture? 

Honestly once you have something like FileCoin/StorJ/MaidSAFE that actually offers reliable storage, all the chains can just live on the cloud. Then cross-chain transactions will be a no-brainer.

Storage is what's getting in the way of atomic cross chain trading? Can you elaborate, not sure I follow

[bitmeat]

What would we need for such a venture? 

Honestly once you have something like FileCoin/StorJ/MaidSAFE that actually offers reliable storage, all the chains can just live on the cloud. Then cross-chain transactions will be a no-brainer.

[tonyk]

Ugg - All I want is a killer financial system (well, and a revolution in the music industry)

I've been building it one step at a time. With Bitshares you have the best new stock market and IPO system. Ethereum explores how to deploy smart contracts. What if we had efficient atomic cross chain pegging. Then you could link all those BitUSD together. If only there was a venture to bundle everything together

charleshoskinson the venture that bundles everything together! 

If I am Dan I will take this deal... for 98% (of 22,500 BTC) of their IPO

[carpet ride]

Ugg - All I want is a killer financial system (well, and a revolution in the music industry)

I've been building it one step at a time. With Bitshares you have the best new stock market and IPO system. Ethereum explores how to deploy smart contracts. What if we had efficient atomic cross chain pegging. Then you could link all those BitUSD together. If only there was a venture to bundle everything together

What would we need for such a venture? 

[charleshoskinson]

Ugg - All I want is a killer financial system (well, and a revolution in the music industry)

I've been building it one step at a time. With Bitshares you have the best new stock market and IPO system. Ethereum explores how to deploy smart contracts. What if we had efficient atomic cross chain pegging. Then you could link all those BitUSD together. If only there was a venture to bundle everything together

[carpet ride]

I also think Invictus has terrible marketing, a lack of strategic vision and a dilution of development efforts. Love me or hate me, the ether sale I helped sculpt is now at over 22,400 BTC https://blockchain.info/address/36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2. That's more than money, it's community belief in a project and a desire to participate. If you walked into the room and said this is bitshares! It's going to take IPOs away from goldman sachs and hand them back to the very companies launching them alongside all the infrastructure for the market to price and trade stock, then I think you would get a lot of support. Instead it's bitcoin is a badly run version of a DAC and we build better DACs- check out our music, lottery and DNS stuff. Oh forget about that Keyhotee thing too while you're at it.

Edit: CH is valid in many respects.

All I want is a killer financial system (and a revolution in the music industry)

[charleshoskinson]

I do not see any irreconcilable differences  between mine and your POV, do you?

Honestly, no.The two things we get with the cryptoscape is both freedom to pick assets that subscribe to our philosophy and second the ability to conduct monetary experiments. There is nothing more American than examining institutions that are bloated, corrupt and exclusive and then giving them the middle finger and burning them all down. I think you guys have a wonderful cryptoequity system, which is why I partnered with Dan in the first place way back in June of last year.

I also think Invictus has terrible marketing, a lack of strategic vision and a dilution of development efforts. Love me or hate me, the ether sale I helped sculpt is now at over 22,400 BTC https://blockchain.info/address/36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2. That's more than money, it's community belief in a project and a desire to participate. If you walked into the room and said this is bitshares! It's going to take IPOs away from goldman sachs and hand them back to the very companies launching them alongside all the infrastructure for the market to price and trade stock, then I think you would get a lot of support. Instead it's bitcoin is a badly run version of a DAC and we build better DACs- check out our music, lottery and DNS stuff. Oh forget about that Keyhotee thing too while you're at it.

 

[carpet ride]

CharlesHoskinson's points about filling out the financial system with additional tools and levers are valid. Building in smart contracts to handle complex derivatives would be extremely valuable to developing nations and thriving powers.  In the financial game, managing risk is paramount, and smart contracts should allow for these additional layers of risk management.