Author Topic: Charles Hoskinson Left Ethereum?  (Read 25078 times)

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Offline tonyk

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I do not see any irreconcilable differences  between mine and your POV, do you?

My whole point is that you do not want your money to appreciate.
I prefer them to neither appreciate, nor depreciate.

[edit]
The funny thing is – I am not a techy person by any standard, so when I first heard about bitcoin (2011, I believe) I went and I was expecting somebody to have made the basket currency. I was so disappointed… I did not take another look at it for almost a year.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 02:30:17 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

charleshoskinson

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Assuming you are the CEO of the company that is just about to launch this experiment. Wouldn't you consider launch your 5 other products that at its best will be worth 1/50 of this one, BUT their chance for success is not depending on anything untested in the real world. This is a backup plan! I am the one asking 3-4 times a week 'Where is bitUSD? When is it coming? Market functionality, please!', but what Dan do makes a business sense.

If I'm the CEO of Microsoft with a deep economic moat and lots of developer then yes I would consider the strategy. If I'm the CEO of a startup with finite resources, low market share, a new brand and only a handful of developers, then I'd ask what is the most valuable thing about my technology and company? And then do that as much as I can. Look at Lego under Jørgen Vig. It's basically a miracle turn around.
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We can argue all day if basket works better than gold. And if this is the main issue we argue about, we are as close as it gets. So, Gold is there, basket is easy to add for those that find it a better choice

Baskets do work better than gold as gold is a single asset with global changes in supply and demand. It's not some magic metal. It's a metal. A basket allows you to properly hedge against most macroeconomic events. Gold has no mechanism to do so.

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Gold is neither deflationary nor inflationary. Gold is value.... If money are constant you do not have to hold them in 'money' to appreciate. All other problems are non existent - you do not need other 'exchange' currency, or 'City of New York' currency. The money goes to credit, because there is no concerns of devaluation, there is no floating exchange rates and so on and so on...

I'm sorry this isn't correct tonyk. Gold when used as a currency is deflationary and thus the demand in the late 1800s for silver to also be used. In fact you should read the Wizard of Oz again (http://www.amphigory.com/oz.htm). My whole point is that you do not want your money to appreciate. You want it to be value stable. And yes one should always worry about devaluation if your money is based upon an asset that people can decide to stop trading or replace.

Offline tonyk

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In your last two post I feel almost as if bitUSD etc. gets lapsed. Isn't this Daniel's way of solving the problem of having market-cap meddle with asset transfers? It's okay to be skeptical that it will work, but in Daniel's shoes the focus is exactly there. If I got it wrong it would be interesting to hear more about what the difference there is.

When you are focusing on DNS, Music, Lottery and months of next generation consensus research, then you cannot honestly say the primary focus has been BitUSD. It is an experiment that requires market validation. The truth is that the only thing connection BitUSD to USD is the name. Nothing else. You are betting that the market will properly price these assets. Futures contracts force delivery to the final holder and  thus have a direct connection to the underlying asset. BitUSD do not.

Assuming you are the CEO of the company that is just about to launch this experiment. Wouldn't you consider launch your 5 other products that at its best will be worth 1/50 of this one, BUT their chance for success is not depending on anything untested in the real world. This is a backup plan! I am the one asking 3-4 times a week 'Where is bitUSD? When is it coming? Market functionality, please!', but what Dan do makes a business sense.

Second, pegging something to the dollar is not an end solution for building a better currency. You are basically saying the USD is good enough- so why not use the dollar to begin with? I'm saying build a basket of commodities, currencies, equities and other instruments that will effective have a constant value in terms of buying power. If BitUSD works, then this basket can be a fiat asset.
We can argue all day if basket works better than gold. And if this is the main issue we argue about, we are as close as it gets. So, Gold is there, basket is easy to add for those that find it a better choice

I have two fundamental concerns when proposing a new money. First, it shouldn't be managed by a human run central bank. Second, it shouldn't be deflationary or inflationary if possible. Value should be held as constant as possible or at least focused within a narrow volatility band in reference to a basket like CPI. The goal here is to have wealth storage in appreciating assets and means of exchange done in a value neutral currency. See Capacity exchange for more details. 
Gold is neither deflationary nor inflationary. Gold is value.... If money are constant you do not have to hold them in 'money' to appreciate. All other problems are non existent - you do not need other 'exchange' currency, or 'City of New York' currency. The money goes to credit, because there is no concerns of devaluation, there is no floating exchange rates and so on and so on...



Dan, how is the market functionality coming along, btw?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 01:41:38 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

charleshoskinson

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Can you expand and be specific about what you mean here?

When someone launches a Bitshares chain with DPOS, it's effectively an IPO for a company with delegates effectively being the board. Via BitUSD and assuming BitUSD actually perform as intended,  you can long and short the company without the need for an exchange. An overlay protocol with smart contracts would allow for complex derivatives to be developed.

In terms of governance, one could attach a contractual connection to ownership of the bitshares asset to election rights for the company's actual board and pretty much anything else you'd like from what the company spends its money on to major events like mergers and acquisitions. It is important to point out that digital assets have no control over physical assets thus you would need a jurisdiction that supports these rights. I find it most likely in Africa, South America  and Asia where countries could view this structure as a new way of bringing investment capital.

The point is guys that Dan invented IPO in a box. I was pointing out that it shouldn't be wasted on low hanging fruit like music and  lottery games.
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In your last two post I feel almost as if bitUSD etc. gets lapsed. Isn't this Daniel's way of solving the problem of having market-cap meddle with asset transfers? It's okay to be skeptical that it will work, but in Daniel's shoes the focus is exactly there. If I got it wrong it would be interesting to hear more about what the difference there is.

When you are focusing on DNS, Music, Lottery and months of next generation consensus research, then you cannot honestly say the primary focus has been BitUSD. It is an experiment that requires market validation. The truth is that the only thing connection BitUSD to USD is the name. Nothing else. You are betting that the market will properly price these assets. Futures contracts force delivery to the final holder and  thus have a direct connection to the underlying asset. BitUSD do not.

Second, pegging something to the dollar is not an end solution for building a better currency. You are basically saying the USD is good enough- so why not use the dollar to begin with? I'm saying build a basket of commodities, currencies, equities and other instruments that will effective have a constant value in terms of buying power. If BitUSD works, then this basket can be a fiat asset.

I have two fundamental concerns when proposing a new money. First, it shouldn't be managed by a human run central bank. Second, it shouldn't be deflationary or inflationary if possible. Value should be held as constant as possible or at least focused within a narrow volatility band in reference to a basket like CPI. The goal here is to have wealth storage in appreciating assets and means of exchange done in a value neutral currency. See Capacity exchange for more details.   


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This isn't correct.  POS gives a great deal more flexibility to distribution.  Theoretically you do not have to distribute all coins on day one.  The distribution allowed by POS is way more flexible than you seem to believe.  In fact I could write a chain that just paid out to hashers who didn't provide security, if I chose.  I would actually have to buy-in to the belief that somehow miners are a more valued way to distribute coins to consider such silliness, but it is at least possible.

With POW you do not have near this flexibility.  POW defines both security and distribution for the most part.  This isn't near the case with POS.  POW miners do not necessarily have incentives aligned with helping the network, so I can't begin to fathom why you think distributing to them is better

If the people who have all the power are coin holders, then why would coin holders accept deterioration of their holdings to broaden distribution? I agree one could develop all kinds of schemes with PoS to handle distribution differently from a 100 percent premine; however, no one seems to have done so at the moment with any degree of success.

Second, PoS seems to be a more hands on system than a PoW system. I understand the whole DAC notion and the goal of making currency holders shareholders, yet if my goal in acquiring the asset is merely means of exchange, then from both the merchant and consumer side, I should really only care about value stability and efficiently of exchange. If you are considering the asset to be a cryptoequity and want governance to be in some way connected to the equity holders, then DPOS is a perfect system, kudos.

For the record, I really dislike PoW in its current form. I think rewards ought to be connected to network maintenance, upgrades, increases in interoperability and driving adoption. At the very least, it would be nice to develop a socially beneficial PoW doing something like folding proteins, unfortunately that whole O(n) -> O(1) requirement is a pain in the ass.     

Offline gamey

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I'm still not sold on something intended on being a currency having the total supply distributed on day zero. While, outside providing a nice pool of randomness, PoW is a waste of resources, it does provide a marginally better distribution model than the developers trying to figure it out on day one- or an IPO style sale.

This isn't correct.  POS gives a great deal more flexibility to distribution.  Theoretically you do not have to distribute all coins on day one.  The distribution allowed by POS is way more flexible than you seem to believe.  In fact I could write a chain that just paid out to hashers who didn't provide security, if I chose.  I would actually have to buy-in to the belief that somehow miners are a more valued way to distribute coins to consider such silliness, but it is at least possible.

With POW you do not have near this flexibility.  POW defines both security and distribution for the most part.  This isn't near the case with POS.  POW miners do not necessarily have incentives aligned with helping the network, so I can't begin to fathom why you think distributing to them is better
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline CLains

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In your last two post I feel almost as if bitUSD etc. gets lapsed. Isn't this Daniel's way of solving the problem of having market-cap meddle with asset transfers? It's okay to be skeptical that it will work, but in Daniel's shoes the focus is exactly there. If I got it wrong it would be interesting to hear more about what the difference there is.

Offline santaclause102

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Can you expand and be specific about what you mean here?
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a next generation equity and governance system for the developed and developing world

charleshoskinson

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I respect you too much to let you loose you talent chasing utopian future, if I can help it.


If my initial comment was dubious. I meant, do not solve problems excising only because currant state is based on wrong foundation.

I'm uncertain what is utopian about pursuing technology that aligns profit motive with transparency and decentralization. I have different economic opinions about the best design to accomplish this goal. For example, I don't think one should try to combine the goals of increasing the value of an asset with using the asset as an effective means of exchange or credit. It basically creates a harsh reality for those in need of credit that they have to repay the appreciation plus interest. It also kills the fixed income security and secondary equity markets as both typically wouldn't have attractive enough returns for the risk premium paid. Thus apparently, we'd live in an economy with only high risk investments and 20 percent interest rate loans.

The other problem with the economics of deflation is that while wages fall, prices don't necessarily follow immediately or at all (especially for inelastic goods). Thus you create groups of people who needlessly suffer- most powerfully demonstrated in London during the great deflationary period from 1870-90s (Jevon wrote a lot of wonderful things leading up to it). The same can be said for inflation. Thus wise central banks attempt to keep the value of a money supply predictable and somewhat stable within a volatility band.

The challenge is that it's politically convenient to debase currencies for short term gain. It's nothing new for example refer to Henry the VIII's great debasement  or Rome's monetary policy in the latter days of the empire. So it's clear that people ought not to be in charge of currencies if we can help it.

I'd like to replace the doctrine of Lex monetae with private currencies that are value pegged to a basket of commodities, companies, and other instruments of value with the goal of preserving buying power of some basket of goods. It ought to be market priced, consumer chosen and supply algorithmically controlled. Convertibility is really the key here and probably the biggest innovation of the cryptocurrency space. Should we continue to push our industry, then the carefully crafted choke points put in place nearly a century ago to control the flow of sovereign currency will completely fall apart. This means merchants won't care what currency they accept as the transaction cost of convertibility is so low they can do so instantly at the point of sale and consider it a convenience cost for the consumer. The same holds for employers who can offer their employees whatever currency they desire to be paid in.

If this happens, then people will keep the bulk of their wealth in assets that appreciate while converting whatever is necessary at the time of purchase to the means of exchange currency (rich people already do this and guess what they get richer). More money in investments is fundamentally better for an economy. DACs, triple entry accounting and other innovations blockchains bring can also improve returns for investors and lower the probability of black swan events.

In terms of Bitshares, I am absolutely perplexed by the push for things like DNS, lottery and music. You guys have a next generation equity and governance system for the developed and developing world alike alongside all the market infrastructure necessary to trade them. Look at all the coin IPOs happening and imagine if they were connected with Bitshares? Focus is always what I3 has lacked. My two cents.

Offline tonyk

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I respect you too much to let you loose you talent chasing utopian future, if I can help it.


If my initial comment was dubious. I meant, do not solve problems excising only because currant state is based on wrong foundation.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

charleshoskinson

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If you take advice from strangers - dig in the opposite direction...

You guys always have a way of making me feel so warm and fuzzy inside. Here tony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWnRMAVWVjk

Offline tonyk

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Best wishes to you, Charles. I hope you have a very restful time to recuperate and get your bearings.

And after you have freshened up a bit, I really hope that you and Invictus could figure it out.

My 2c.

Thanks Werneo. I think Invictus the company is on its way out yielding to a structure more friendly to the needs of Bitshares the ecosystem. I don't think I have a place in either of these ventures; however, there is also the pool of AGS donors and PTS holders. I'd love to do something including them amongst others.

Lately I've been spending a great deal of time addressing the scalability and consensus problems facing the cryptoscape (see I used a new word; happy anti-currency people :) ). DPOS seems nicely suited to a company equity model. Efficient atomic cross chain trading seems to be a stopgap solution for the ocean of coins we seem to be forced to sail.

This said, I'm more inclined to develop a single master chain that can be effectively broken into thousands of different pieces and distributed in a way that preserves the trustlessness of a homogeneous model. I'm still not sold on something intended on being a currency having the total supply distributed on day zero. While, outside providing a nice pool of randomness, PoW is a waste of resources, it does provide a marginally better distribution model than the developers trying to figure it out on day one- or an IPO style sale. Economically I live in a camp that doesn't like massive appreciation in an instrument intended on being a means of exchange (see Professor Nell's work -> http://vimeo.com/70393015 & spend some time with capacity exchange -> http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-research-and-information/research-publications/Documents/research-2012/Capacity%20Trading%20Update%20Report.pdf)

In any event, we as an community (the cryptoscape not just bitshares) are very close to a revolution. It's now just an assembly problem of different technologies with the right team, marketing and philosophy. First person to win gets a bill gates sized fortune.

   

If you take advice from strangers - dig in the opposite direction...
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

charleshoskinson

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Best wishes to you, Charles. I hope you have a very restful time to recuperate and get your bearings.

And after you have freshened up a bit, I really hope that you and Invictus could figure it out.

My 2c.

Thanks Werneo. I think Invictus the company is on its way out yielding to a structure more friendly to the needs of Bitshares the ecosystem. I don't think I have a place in either of these ventures; however, there is also the pool of AGS donors and PTS holders. I'd love to do something including them amongst others.

Lately I've been spending a great deal of time addressing the scalability and consensus problems facing the cryptoscape (see I used a new word; happy anti-currency people :) ). DPOS seems nicely suited to a company equity model. Efficient atomic cross chain trading seems to be a stopgap solution for the ocean of coins we seem to be forced to sail.

This said, I'm more inclined to develop a single master chain that can be effectively broken into thousands of different pieces and distributed in a way that preserves the trustlessness of a homogeneous model. I'm still not sold on something intended on being a currency having the total supply distributed on day zero. While, outside providing a nice pool of randomness, PoW is a waste of resources, it does provide a marginally better distribution model than the developers trying to figure it out on day one- or an IPO style sale. Economically I live in a camp that doesn't like massive appreciation in an instrument intended on being a means of exchange (see Professor Nell's work -> http://vimeo.com/70393015 & spend some time with capacity exchange -> http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-research-and-information/research-publications/Documents/research-2012/Capacity%20Trading%20Update%20Report.pdf)

In any event, we as an community (the cryptoscape not just bitshares) are very close to a revolution. It's now just an assembly problem of different technologies with the right team, marketing and philosophy. First person to win gets a bill gates sized fortune.

   
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 01:03:28 am by charleshoskinson »

Offline werneo

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In any event, it's been fun sparring with everyone and building great things. I'm going to spend some time outside of the crypto space. Most likely will return to mathematics. Good luck everyone and thanks for all the fish.

Best wishes to you, Charles. I hope you have a very restful time to recuperate and get your bearings.

And after you have freshened up a bit, I really hope that you and Invictus could figure it out.

My 2c.

Offline cass

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I actually get along with most people. My health has gotten progressively worst over the past six months and the 12 hour seven day a week pace hasn't helped it much. Ethereum is headed in a great direction and doesn't need me to be there anymore. I need a break mostly.
I wish you the best!

 +5% Charles take your time to recover & repower! Health has 1# priority and i could understand this completely.

█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline xeroc

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I actually get along with most people. My health has gotten progressively worst over the past six months and the 12 hour seven day a week pace hasn't helped it much. Ethereum is headed in a great direction and doesn't need me to be there anymore. I need a break mostly.
I wish you the best!