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Offline fuzzy

What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« on: November 12, 2013, 11:58:10 PM »

The following is an excerpt from chat in the ProtoShare's IRC:

--Wild0wnes:   i've watches all of them twice and i still can't explain it
--Wild0wnes:   reminds me of the days when i was trying to understand bitcoin
--Preturd:   hm...
--Preturd:   well it seems like when you boil it down
--Preturd:   the ONLY thing we need to know
--Preturd:   is that the BlockChain provides a decentralized, yet predictable and transparent means of enforcing the rules that would ultimately fall victim to crime syndicates in a centralized system
--Preturd:   thereby routing corruption of the system without firing a shot...but instead through simple adoption of a better, less corrupt and Free-Market-Driven technology.
--Preturd:   very interesting
--Preturd:   the question to me though is....does one buy a stock using bitshares? are they first converted to dollars or other "sovereign" fiat?
--Preturd:   and if so...all shares must still have a price based on different denominations of bitshares
--Wild0wnes:   yeah the part i still don't get is the HOW the shorting guarentees the price of a bitUSD stays at 1:1
--Wild0wnes:   bitUSD = USD
--Wild0wnes:   i understand people are supposed to short it if its above and long it if its low but i still don't understand what guarentee that it would be a good oportunity to go long
--Preturd:   @wild0wnes i am of the belief that everything will be priced in BitCoin...the new World Reserve currency
--Wild0wnes:   i believe its independant of bitcoin.... only based on it
--Preturd:   but that is the ONLY place they show BitShares at work...so i am wondering if it is only a mechanism for shorting stocks (and currencies)
--Wild0wnes:   well the bitshares i get (kinda)
--Wild0wnes:   its the bitUSD i don't
--Wild0wnes:   how they can create a "stock" that everyone is supposed to go long when its worth less than a buck a share
--Wild0wnes:   above "stock" i'm talking about is the bitUSD (and i'm sure bitYEN and others to come later)
--Wild0wnes:   well the bitshares i get (kinda)


These are pretty important questions because nublets are going to need to learn the specific details of how this technology works.  This is a good primer, but we could probably use a little more depth in this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BV55IrZi7g  especially with regard to the denomination of BitShares Converted to other currencies...

Looking forward to hearing from the community with regard to this.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:08:51 AM by fuznuts »
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Offline Lighthouse

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 12:12:02 AM »
Personally I think the most innovative thing Invictus has created is Protoshares, an alt coin that actually gives you a reason to hold it because on a set date it gives a thing to whoever holds it.

That is a huge advancement and whether or not Bitshares works, Protoshares is going to have an enormous impact on how altcoins are made moving forward.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline ruletheworld

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 12:14:30 AM »
Well, you're not really 'supposed' to go long or short, but it is in your best interest to do so when the price deviates. Why? Because when BitUSD is undervalued, others will be buying bitUSD too, and that will push the price up. Why will the others buy bitUSD? Because the price is undervalued!

It seems circular, but for a large enough system, it should be able to work. It probably won't work if the only players are you, me and bytemaster, but that's unlikely. The reason the price follows USD would be mutual consensus that is not enforced by a reserve or anything of that nature but enforced because all players want to gain in the end.

The unfortunate tragedy though is that in this kind of trading, unlike the stock market, your gain must definitely come at another person's loss (kinda like the forex market I guess).
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Offline ruletheworld

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 12:16:22 AM »
Personally I think the most innovative thing Invictus has created is Protoshares, an alt coin that actually gives you a reason to hold it because on a set date it gives a thing to whoever holds it.

That is a huge advancement and whether or not Bitshares works, Protoshares is going to have an enormous impact on how altcoins are made moving forward.
Agreed. Bitshares may or may not work, but looks like Protoshares, more or less, does work. Considering its short life to reach the maximum (2 years), I am curious to see how the value will be when all of it has been mined. How will that affect the exchange rate with BTC, hash rate of the system, transaction fees, etc. It could give a primer on things to come when other coins reach their maturity.
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Offline Lighthouse

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 12:24:01 AM »
Personally I think the most innovative thing Invictus has created is Protoshares, an alt coin that actually gives you a reason to hold it because on a set date it gives a thing to whoever holds it.

That is a huge advancement and whether or not Bitshares works, Protoshares is going to have an enormous impact on how altcoins are made moving forward.
Agreed. Bitshares may or may not work, but looks like Protoshares, more or less, does work. Considering its short life to reach the maximum (2 years), I am curious to see how the value will be when all of it has been mined. How will that affect the exchange rate with BTC, hash rate of the system, transaction fees, etc. It could give a primer on things to come when other coins reach their maturity.

See I actually think what happened went fine, it would be better to mine everything in two months (and have that be the plan from the beginning instead of a surpise) because it puts real urgency into it like a kickstarter campaign - gotta buy a reward before the campaign is over or prices go up

Same here, if you think an idea is good you mine or buy early then once all are mined they trade until the "reward" is issued.

Two years seems like a short time compared to Bitcoins 120 years or whatever but compare it to a kickstarter campaign, it's AGES!  You don't want to mine a startupcoin like this a long time for the same reason you don't see people running 2 year long kickstarter campaigns.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline Bitstrader

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2013, 02:03:31 AM »
Personally I think the most innovative thing Invictus has created is Protoshares, an alt coin that actually gives you a reason to hold it because on a set date it gives a thing to whoever holds it.

That is a huge advancement and whether or not Bitshares works, Protoshares is going to have an enormous impact on how altcoins are made moving forward.

I would think yes Protoshares is innovative but when compared next to Bitshares it really is a small part of the equation, holding a mass amount of Bitshares will give you a return just as if you had put cash into a CD (this is my perception) or say a money market account, so you have dividends coming in for holding your shares, plus a collateral that will only grow in value as people continue to mine (with plans to reach the same mass your holding to obtain the same wealth), as for Bitshares working, when it goes live and nobody really wants to sell, that will be proof that until someone brings out an alt coin with insurance attached it sets the standard.

P.S
Invictus ought not have a coin pegged to USD, might be better to peg to an average value of global currency to be a worldwide decentralized coin -AVF- average value of  fiat, this would help it be tradeable across borders.

Offline Stan

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2013, 03:11:22 AM »

Quote
Invictus ought not have a coin pegged to USD, might be better to peg to an average value of global currency to be a worldwide decentralized coin -AVF- average value of  fiat, this would help it be tradeable across borders.

We are not USD centric.

Take a close look at the banner on our placeholder website at TradeBitShares.com and ponder what the icon might mean. 



Its been sitting there, quietly waiting, since July.

Then go flip through the graphics in our original BitShares white paper and enjoy the vision! 

http://tradebitshares.com/s/BitShares-White-Paper-2.pdf
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Bitstrader

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 03:54:10 AM »
I will reread it again, and probably again, I see the vision, maybe its just the USD I dislike.

Offline Stan

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 04:08:39 AM »
Spend them on ProtoShares now, while USD are still worth something.

One elevator is going up, the other is going down.  Your call.   :D
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Offline MrJeans

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 07:13:39 PM »
What will the mining difficulty of BitShares be like at launch?
Lets say at launch of BitShares each PTS is worth 20USD.
And for each PTS you own you will get one BitShare.

From this logic it would seam that BitShare mining should be set at a difficulty such that it will be priced at 20USD per BitShare.

If BitShare mining starts out too easy the BitShares you would get from each PTS you own would be worth very little. Which in turn reduces the value of ones PTS.

For example I wouldnt want to pay 20USD for one PTS to get 1 BitShare (on launch), if 1 BitShare can be bought on the market for 50 cents.

Offline phoenix

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 09:33:03 PM »
What will the mining difficulty of BitShares be like at launch?
Lets say at launch of BitShares each PTS is worth 20USD.
And for each PTS you own you will get one BitShare.

From this logic it would seam that BitShare mining should be set at a difficulty such that it will be priced at 20USD per BitShare.

If BitShare mining starts out too easy the BitShares you would get from each PTS you own would be worth very little. Which in turn reduces the value of ones PTS.

For example I wouldnt want to pay 20USD for one PTS to get 1 BitShare (on launch), if 1 BitShare can be bought on the market for 50 cents.

I believe the original plan was for mining difficulty to be equal to protoshares mining difficulty. But now there's talk of replacing POW mining with proof of stake, so i'm not sure how that will translate to mining difficulty
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Offline MrJeans

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 10:45:46 PM »
What will the mining difficulty of BitShares be like at launch?
Lets say at launch of BitShares each PTS is worth 20USD.
And for each PTS you own you will get one BitShare.

From this logic it would seam that BitShare mining should be set at a difficulty such that it will be priced at 20USD per BitShare.

If BitShare mining starts out too easy the BitShares you would get from each PTS you own would be worth very little. Which in turn reduces the value of ones PTS.

For example I wouldnt want to pay 20USD for one PTS to get 1 BitShare (on launch), if 1 BitShare can be bought on the market for 50 cents.

I believe the original plan was for mining difficulty to be equal to protoshares mining difficulty. But now there's talk of replacing POW mining with proof of stake, so i'm not sure how that will translate to mining difficulty

Thanks, I believe this to be rather important.
Would anyone from Invictus be able to clarify?

Offline Stan

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Re: What, exactly, are BitShares Priced in?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 01:24:09 AM »
What will the mining difficulty of BitShares be like at launch?
Lets say at launch of BitShares each PTS is worth 20USD.
And for each PTS you own you will get one BitShare.

From this logic it would seam that BitShare mining should be set at a difficulty such that it will be priced at 20USD per BitShare.

If BitShare mining starts out too easy the BitShares you would get from each PTS you own would be worth very little. Which in turn reduces the value of ones PTS.

For example I wouldnt want to pay 20USD for one PTS to get 1 BitShare (on launch), if 1 BitShare can be bought on the market for 50 cents.

I believe the original plan was for mining difficulty to be equal to protoshares mining difficulty. But now there's talk of replacing POW mining with proof of stake, so i'm not sure how that will translate to mining difficulty

Thanks, I believe this to be rather important.
Would anyone from Invictus be able to clarify?

If you read the thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1138.msg11955#msg11955 you will see that this is an area of current research with wide participation and lots of revolutionary ideas with huge potential.  It would be premature to make any final announcements, but you can see the progress converging to an optimized solution in this forum every day.  Stay tuned.

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

 

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