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Offline gamey

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How can a voter know that Delegates are actually decentralized ?  Does a 3rd party need to do network analysis and then have that published with IPs claimed by candidates ?  There is a problem with economy of scale leading to centralization if the network has strong anonymity and rewards.  Is there any way to avoid economy of scale ?
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Offline bytemaster



How can a voter know that Delegates are actually decentralized ?  Does a 3rd party need to do network analysis and then have that published with IPs claimed by candidates ?  There is a problem with economy of scale leading to centralization if the network has strong anonymity and rewards.  Is there any way to avoid economy of scale ?

Decentralization is a technique, not a goal.   The low barriers to entry and transparency are what protect the users. 
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Offline tonyk

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I think the best bet for this is large/very diversified pools of participants in every DAC. Do you think DAC’s are well spread out /diversified as of today? Do you think some stakeholders are too big even at the start of those companies (DAC’s)?
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1

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How can a voter know that Delegates are actually decentralized ?  Does a 3rd party need to do network analysis and then have that published with IPs claimed by candidates ?  There is a problem with economy of scale leading to centralization if the network has strong anonymity and rewards.  Is there any way to avoid economy of scale ?

I haven't been following it, I'm not technical and I've probably asked the following and it's been addressed before.

At first glance it seems you can get 51% control really easily is if you're willing to buy votes. (Operate at a loss.)

However if I remember correctly even if someone does get control, it's not the end of the world,  there's a limited amount of things they can do and they'll get replaced very quickly.

Edit: Yeah found this answer by BM

Quote
First of all someone with 51% of the delegates only has one power:  to exclude transactions or to stop producing blocks. 

If they gain 51% of the delegates and fail to include transactions that would vote them out then it will be very obvious to everyone on the network, the blockchain will be hard-forked by some developer and the network will continue to function.  You see what binds a network is not the software rules, but the social contract among the community.   It is almost inconceivable that in the event 51% of the delegates stop including transactions that the community would sit back and take it for long.   

Competition among chains and no barriers to entry or forking keeps people honest because there is NOTHING to gain by a 51% attack. 

Note that these 51 delegates would have to pretend not to see blocks from the other 49 delegates and thus the attack would be so obvious and disruptive that it wouldn't last more than 24 hours before community members took action.   

That was a quite an interesting thread actually, nice support there from clout & delulo.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=558316.40

« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 02:18:35 AM by Empirical1 »

Offline gamey

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How can a voter know that Delegates are actually decentralized ?  Does a 3rd party need to do network analysis and then have that published with IPs claimed by candidates ?  There is a problem with economy of scale leading to centralization if the network has strong anonymity and rewards.  Is there any way to avoid economy of scale ?

Decentralization is a technique, not a goal.   The low barriers to entry and transparency are what protect the users.

I agree from my limited understanding it is probably not a big issue. I perhaps shouldn't even post this stuff because of FUD but it seems to me that it should be a goal on some level.

You have economy of scale competing with largest % in cashback.  So what will happen is that I get as many delegates I have under sock puppets and give back a large amount of the fees.  It does not intuitively follow that low barrier of entry is incentive for decentralization, it is just as much incentive for centralization as it just means economy of scale can be readily applied.

THe hard problem seems to be weighing the benefits of an anonymous network with hidden delegates vs being able to see the actual location of delegates and realize they are not the same entity.  I guess you guys have it right, not sure.  Maybe I don't understand the problem.
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Offline bytemaster

I think these networks need to very public and transparent, not anonymous.   Users need financial privacy, but operators need public transparency.   You need transparency for trust and trust is the basis of efficient operation.   What we really want is to eliminate fraud.

Being anonymous is only required if it becomes illegal to be a delegate.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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Anybody cares to elaborate why the initial distribution is fair, as in:
Are there any  players with too big of a stake that might hinder proper market operation if they so choose?
Or control huge % of the delegates?
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline gamey

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Anybody cares to elaborate why the initial distribution is fair, as in:
Are there any  players with too big of a stake that might hinder proper market operation if they so choose?
Or control huge % of the delegates?

It would require social engineering on top of everything, but it could happen. (controlling huge % of delegates)

Approval voting basically depends on the bad actors being found and publicized.  Then hopefully people can be made to known to not vote for them.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline tonyk

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As not too techy user I might be well of base here but - You are saying that approval voting requires such a high support that even the big players will require not only their own share voting for them but also a significant general population support, correct?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 04:26:35 AM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline luckybit

Anybody cares to elaborate why the initial distribution is fair, as in:
Are there any  players with too big of a stake that might hinder proper market operation if they so choose?
Or control huge % of the delegates?

It would require social engineering on top of everything, but it could happen. (controlling huge % of delegates)

Approval voting basically depends on the bad actors being found and publicized.  Then hopefully people can be made to known to not vote for them.

I think today being a delegate isn't a bit deal. I think in 5 or 10 years delegates will have to worry about coercion. If people know they have power then sooner or later they will be socially engineered.
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