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Offline xeroc

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BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« on: June 27, 2014, 09:40:07 AM »

Read for your self:
I guess they really have no idea about what we are trying to achieve here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=667594.0;all
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 11:53:26 AM »
Here is a relatively fair discussion about the economics of POW https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=654410.0

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 02:57:35 PM »
I just nailed it...

Offline xeroc

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 03:03:39 PM »
wow .. well don't ..
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 03:05:16 PM »
what do you mean?

Offline fuzzy

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 03:23:12 PM »
LOL
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Offline xeroc

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 03:41:37 PM »
Pretty sure these guys over there now start investigating BitShares
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Offline liondani

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 04:19:06 PM »
Pretty sure these guys over there now start investigating BitShares

...and will make for the first time a right investment  :)
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Offline puppies

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 06:28:42 PM »
The OP of that thread is full of labor theory of value claptrap.  This same argument is used to explain why war(destruction) is good for the economy. 

Its almost as bad as all of the posts attempting to determine value by number of coins.
 
Sorry, but willful economic ignorance bothers me.
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Offline luckybit

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 07:05:56 PM »
Read for your self:
I guess they really have no idea about what we are trying to achieve here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=667594.0;all

They know about us, they just don't believe in the technology yet. It's the same attitude people had with PoW when it first happened. It will take time for it to think in.
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Offline gamey

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2014, 07:06:18 PM »
Read for your self:
I guess they really have no idea about what we are trying to achieve here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=667594.0;all

They know about us, they just don't believe in the technology yet. It's the same attitude people had with PoW when it first happened. It will take time for it to think in.

This is why I am a big proponent of direct comparisons when they are beneficial.  There are problems with the approach since there isn't a released product for Bitshares. It really is an issue of education.  We also have to fight against all the people investing in Bitcoin and mining.  Thats billions of dollars of economic interest vs a fraction of that in POS.
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Offline luckybit

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 03:34:50 AM »
Read for your self:
I guess they really have no idea about what we are trying to achieve here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=667594.0;all

They have a few valid arguments.

You can quote me on this...

With Proof of Stake if we don't change the distribution mechanism then it really does reward rich players. It's a Pay-to-Win game.

I don't think it's fair to the majority of the possible players to deliberately design it to be Pay-to-Win because then the game becomes less fun. When the game becomes less fun then less people play. So if you want only rich people to play then you keep it set up the way it is now until it centralizes around the wealthiest.

I'm going to be honest, it might actually be better for us in the short time if it's a Pay-to-Win game. It could make some of us filthy rich as the price of the shares skyrocket while millionaires buy them up. In the long term though the level of user adoption will suffer because no one outside of the "first world" will even be able to play and within the first world eventually the people who we really want to play will say it's too expensive.

They also have a strong point to make that it will not remain decentralized if it remains Pay-to-Win. Under Pay-to-Win who do you think the top players will eventually be? Someone who already won in another game can keep paying for wins in every future iteration of a game.

This would be fine if these people came from the Bitshares community and helped launch the industry but if they are people from another community or let's say they are a traditional bank then would you be happy with them doing the 1% attack and grabbing all the equity? If that happens what will the ultimate result be? It will be centralization of wealth in the hands of possibly the very same banking elite that this community in particular complains about.

To keep that from happening you need to move away from the Pay-to-Win model of Proof of Stake. Democratic models are better and DPoS is better. We could fix this bug by simply adding randomness to the selection of the delegates (not in this chain but in some of the future chains).  Adding this randomness will shuffle the deck a little bit and then we can say that we care about decentralization.

I know Democracy is a loaded word around here but no matter what words I use to express these concepts the trend is clear. Players do not like Pay-to-Win because it's not viewed as fair and hence not fun.


« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 03:38:25 AM by luckybit »
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Offline liondani

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 08:18:10 AM »
 +5% +5% +5%

to luckybit
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 08:33:56 AM »
There is not such thing as fair distribution...

No one should get something very valuable for free as most probably  won't appreciate it, sell it and get the free money that someone gave to you...

The most fair distribution would be to create something very very simple that anyone outside crypto who can at least send an email can participate. As long as only existing cryptoinvestors participate  and not the rest of the world it will never be fair.

Offline liondani

Re: BitcoinTalk: PoS is broken .. idiotic arguments
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2014, 08:44:33 AM »
There is not such thing as fair distribution...

No one should get something very valuable for free as most probably  won't appreciate it, sell it and get the free money that someone gave to you...

The most fair distribution would be to create something very very simple that anyone outside crypto who can at least send an email can participate. As long as only existing cryptoinvestors participate  and not the rest of the world it will never be fair.

we must make the possibility of future centralization to be as near as zero...
no
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