Author Topic: Any ETA for Bitshares? And suggestion to admins  (Read 10008 times)

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Offline xeroc

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I'd like to bring in an analogie from communications:
DPOS vs. POW is like
SDH vs. PDH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrone_Digitale_Hierarchie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiochronous_digital_hierarchy

SHD is synchronous over all participants while PDH is doing best-effort with some kind of semi-synchron transmission.

Offline gamey

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I believe all of these issues have been corrected.  Please review it.  Clout did most of the work btw.
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Offline bytemaster

Quote
Another suggestion I can think of, as you already list block production, under the confirmation time you can list the actual time a confirmation takes (To save them doing the mental arithmetic in their head) I think it looks a lot more powerful to see 15 seconds under our confirmation time and +-60 minutes under Bitcoin. 

I thought of this too... makes it more concrete to average users.... but once again it is an emergency vs normal case.

IE:  with Proof of Work 6 blocks could take 1 minute or take 6 hours based upon random chance.   
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Offline Empirical1

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Under "Dividends", I think you need to define that better:

1) We are replacing Dividend with "Burn Rate" to avoid SEC terms as much as possible and to highlight the fact that Burning has the effect of transferring value to shareholders like a Stock Buy back or Dividend....   Calling things a dividend leads people to think of a cash payment per-share rather than a stock buy back or retiring of shares. 

2) Network costs are independent of fees.  Lets break this into two categories:

      a) Network Expenses -> ASIC development, Electricity, Pool Operator Fees, ASIC Operator Fees
      b) Network Income  -> TPS * Minimum Fee * 1 Year
     
3) Lets link to the justification for 2 billion share supply:
      a) More user friendly (numbers like 1000 are easier for people than numbers like 0.001
   
4) Look at share divisibility (precision)  as an extra row

5) Consensus Mechanism should be top item

6) Mastercoin & Counterparty don't use POW for consensus (they use trusted timestamping/ordering of transactions) as consensus and the BTC network happens to provide this to them.

7) Mastercoin & Counterparty each require at least 1 BTC transactions per Mastercoin/Counterparty transaction and will never make up 100% of the bitcoin network transaction volume.  M & C each are competing with BTC for the same 7 TPS and I am fairly certain miners would start filtering their transactions if they started to interfere with BTC transactions so I think it is only fair to list them at 2 TPS.  (Note this explanation should be linked as a foot note)

8) Ripple consensus depends upon transaction volume so there should be a * next to the 10 seconds.

9) Manual vs Automatic Order Matching is a key Distinction

10) "Voting" as a feature is a bit vague... DPOS votes on delegates, how is it defined?   We should link each row to a page that describes what each means.

11) Decentralization is a key factor that we need some metric / ranking for.
       a) how many parties must collude to control the consensus process
       b) Economic barrier to entry of starting an equally "secure" alternative 
       c) I suggest the metric:  A / B which gives BTS  51/~0 => ~Infinity  and gives BTC 1-2 / $500 M => ~0 decentralization
       d) Cost of hostile takeover of consensus process as a percent of market CAP
              1) 102% of mining power to go from 0 to 51%.... $500M => 10%
              2) 51% for DPOS

12) Cross-Chain Trading Support

     

It will be quite a cool comparison chart when it's done, though it does seem all the above would make it harder to consume, but I guess it's worth it.

I'm not sure about using the term 'burn rate' most people in business not tech understand it as -

Quote
Burn rate is a synonymous term for negative cash flow. It is a measure for how fast a company will use up its shareholder capital.[1] If the shareholder capital is exhausted, the company will either have to start making a profit, find additional funding, or close down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_rate

----

On BTT they are also saying

Quote
I believe, for objectivity purposes, it would make sense to differentiate between 'normal conditions' and 'emergency conditions' when comparing systems. So, two sets of numbers are required for each system in the table.

This!

Not bad. That would dramatically increase the credibility of that table. + 1

Personally I think there may be some merit to distinguishing between an acceptably confirmed transaction (Small value/purchase) and a fully confirmed transaction (High value/purchase) - to be fair to other systems. (We'll still look awesome)

Another suggestion I can think of, as you already list block production, under the confirmation time you can list the actual time a confirmation takes (To save them doing the mental arithmetic in their head) I think it looks a lot more powerful to see 15 seconds under our confirmation time and +-60 minutes under Bitcoin. 

But just again  +5% think it's awesome stuff Clout can't wait till we have an image we can't start posting about.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 03:57:18 pm by Empirical1 »

Offline bytemaster

Under "Dividends", I think you need to define that better:

1) We are replacing Dividend with "Burn Rate" to avoid SEC terms as much as possible and to highlight the fact that Burning has the effect of transferring value to shareholders like a Stock Buy back or Dividend....   Calling things a dividend leads people to think of a cash payment per-share rather than a stock buy back or retiring of shares. 

2) Network costs are independent of fees.  Lets break this into two categories:

      a) Network Expenses -> ASIC development, Electricity, Pool Operator Fees, ASIC Operator Fees
      b) Network Income  -> TPS * Minimum Fee * 1 Year
     
3) Lets link to the justification for 2 billion share supply:
      a) More user friendly (numbers like 1000 are easier for people than numbers like 0.001
   
4) Look at share divisibility (precision)  as an extra row

5) Consensus Mechanism should be top item

6) Mastercoin & Counterparty don't use POW for consensus (they use trusted timestamping/ordering of transactions) as consensus and the BTC network happens to provide this to them.

7) Mastercoin & Counterparty each require at least 1 BTC transactions per Mastercoin/Counterparty transaction and will never make up 100% of the bitcoin network transaction volume.  M & C each are competing with BTC for the same 7 TPS and I am fairly certain miners would start filtering their transactions if they started to interfere with BTC transactions so I think it is only fair to list them at 2 TPS.  (Note this explanation should be linked as a foot note)

8) Ripple consensus depends upon transaction volume so there should be a * next to the 10 seconds.

9) Manual vs Automatic Order Matching is a key Distinction

10) "Voting" as a feature is a bit vague... DPOS votes on delegates, how is it defined?   We should link each row to a page that describes what each means.

11) Decentralization is a key factor that we need some metric / ranking for.
       a) how many parties must collude to control the consensus process
       b) Economic barrier to entry of starting an equally "secure" alternative 
       c) I suggest the metric:  A / B which gives BTS  51/~0 => ~Infinity  and gives BTC 1-2 / $500 M => ~0 decentralization
       d) Cost of hostile takeover of consensus process as a percent of market CAP
              1) 102% of mining power to go from 0 to 51%.... $500M => 10%
              2) 51% for DPOS

12) Cross-Chain Trading Support

       
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:35:30 pm by bytemaster »
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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putting together one on the wiki right now. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms

this is beautiful! I wish to extend a hearty +5%

 +5% Great work!

Under Network Security costs, what about just 'network costs'?


I don't know but isn't the minimum effective transaction fee with Bitcoin 0.0001?

So the Network cost for Bitcoin would be 10% inflation + Transaction fee currently $0.06
For MSC & XCP it would be 'Transaction fee of 0.0001 BTC currently $0.06'
NXT is 1 NXT I think, so 'Transaction fee of 1 NXT currently $0.05
How would ours compare? What is our current transaction fee?

I would also consider ordering them in the order of the most green/Yes they have.
(So BitShares followed by NXT followed by XCP then MSC then Bitcoin then Ripple.)

thanks for the info

i ordered them by market cap...

OK that makes sense, probably fairest way to do it.

clout

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putting together one on the wiki right now. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms

this is beautiful! I wish to extend a hearty +5%

 +5% Great work!

Under Network Security costs, what about just 'network costs'?


I don't know but isn't the minimum effective transaction fee with Bitcoin 0.0001?

So the Network cost for Bitcoin would be 10% inflation + Transaction fee currently $0.06
For MSC & XCP it would be 'Transaction fee of 0.0001 BTC currently $0.06'
NXT is 1 NXT I think, so 'Transaction fee of 1 NXT currently $0.05
How would ours compare? What is our current transaction fee?

I would also consider ordering them in the order of the most green/Yes they have.
(So BitShares followed by NXT followed by XCP then MSC then Bitcoin then Ripple.)

thanks for the info

i ordered them by market cap...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:40:12 pm by clout »

Offline cass

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Offline Empirical1

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putting together one on the wiki right now. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms

this is beautiful! I wish to extend a hearty +5%

 +5% Great work!

Under Network Security costs, what about just 'network costs'?


I don't know but isn't the minimum effective transaction fee with Bitcoin 0.0001?

So the Network cost for Bitcoin would be 10% inflation + Transaction fee currently $0.06
For MSC & XCP it would be 'Transaction fee of 0.0001 BTC currently $0.06'
NXT is 1 NXT I think, so 'Transaction fee of 1 NXT currently $0.05
How would ours compare? What is our current transaction fee?

I would also consider ordering them in the order of the most green/Yes they have.
(So BitShares followed by NXT followed by XCP then MSC then Bitcoin then Ripple.)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:38:38 pm by Empirical1 »


Offline bytemaster

Also Mastercoin / Counterparty have security costs in the bitcoin transaction fees they pay to be included on the bitcoin blockchain.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

better to add cost per transaction on the comparison table.

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FdxxnujeMb_1kWlz1Esqut_jmmWNicbS3Meh1F83tUo/edit#gid=0

PS need's more info but not bad at all

Yes, need more info coz there is no comparison of Exchange features at all. Thank u anyway.

Also note that our confirmation time is only 51 blocks if a delegate misses a block, I would actually suggest that we represent the reality that when fully armed and operational there will be near 0 missed blocks and thus 0 opportunity for forks and thus confirmation time is 1 block.
putting together one on the wiki right now. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms

Network Security costs are "undefined" because the "fees" paid to delegates can pay for so much more than security.    I would say that the "security" costs are effectively 0.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline sfinder

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better to add cost per transaction on the comparison table.

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FdxxnujeMb_1kWlz1Esqut_jmmWNicbS3Meh1F83tUo/edit#gid=0

PS need's more info but not bad at all

Yes, need more info coz there is no comparison of Exchange features at all. Thank u anyway.

Also note that our confirmation time is only 51 blocks if a delegate misses a block, I would actually suggest that we represent the reality that when fully armed and operational there will be near 0 missed blocks and thus 0 opportunity for forks and thus confirmation time is 1 block.
putting together one on the wiki right now. http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F#Comparison_of_BitShares_and_Other_Platforms
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In practice BitShares isn't a distributed system, it is more like coordinated synchronized time shared centralized system. 

Only in failure mode (missed blocks, bugs, or attacks) does "eventual consistency" apply.    Our system can detect failure modes automatically and warn the users that the confirmation time has gone up.  But when there is smooth sailing CAP does not apply.

This explains a lot, thx.