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Ggozzo

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Latest stats please.
« on: July 10, 2014, 01:46:01 AM »

Since the update threads aren't being used to keep us in the loop, can you post them here?


Offline solaaire

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2014, 03:42:25 AM »
- Currently on the 8th network testnet and things are going quite well, minus the occasional bug or two that still needs to be fixed.

- Earlier today I successfully sent several batches of 100 XTS from one of my wallets to another. the transactions were confirmed very quickly

- a couple of chinese exchanges are trading promissory notes (btc38 and bter), and it looks like BitShares X will be out soon, probably within the month


is this the type of info you're looking for? feel free to ask any questions related to the projects current status and ill do my best to answer :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 10:13:19 AM by solaaire »

Offline xeroc

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2014, 07:59:00 AM »
Nice summary

however
confirmed by 13 delegates, and received in less than 5 seconds
is missleading .. block confirmation time is 2 sec .. thus after 5 secs you 'only' have 2 (and a half) confirmations
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Offline solaaire

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 08:43:12 AM »
Nice summary

however
confirmed by 13 delegates, and received in less than 5 seconds
is missleading .. block confirmation time is 2 sec .. thus after 5 secs you 'only' have 2 (and a half) confirmations

i think i understand - so those 13 delegates i see are the ones who already have, or who will eventually confirm the transaction. is that correct?

Offline xeroc

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 09:30:34 AM »
i think i understand - so those 13 delegates i see are the ones who already have, or who will eventually confirm the transaction. is that correct?
where do you see those "13 delegates"?
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Offline solaaire

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 09:38:36 AM »
where do you see those "13 delegates"?

when i click the date/time stamp under the transaction tab in my account, it takes me to a list of these delegates:

Net Delegate Vote Update
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-9   
Delegate: fox   
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-1
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-7   
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-2   
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-5   
Delegate: calyau6   
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-8   
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-10   
Delegate: xeroc-delegate-4   
Delegate: calyau1   
Delegate: xeldal
Delegate: calyau4
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 09:40:48 AM by solaaire »

Offline xeroc

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 10:02:02 AM »
Ah .. you missunderstand ... those 13 delegates are the once your vote for in transaction .. the confirmation time is different

each tx you can approve all your voted-for delegates with the weight of the stake you are transmitting. those 13 delegates each get a vote from you (thanks by the way :) )
I am not sure if you can see the confirmation time somewhere .. i dont use the webwallet but you can for sure somewhere see the block in which your transaction is stored in.
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Offline solaaire

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 10:09:55 AM »
Ah .. you missunderstand ... those 13 delegates are the once your vote for in transaction .. the confirmation time is different

each tx you can approve all your voted-for delegates with the weight of the stake you are transmitting. those 13 delegates each get a vote from you (thanks by the way :) )
I am not sure if you can see the confirmation time somewhere .. i dont use the webwallet but you can for sure somewhere see the block in which your transaction is stored in.

haha damn, i was way off. thanks for the info - will amend my previous post

clout

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 03:00:34 PM »
Nice summary

however
confirmed by 13 delegates, and received in less than 5 seconds
is missleading .. block confirmation time is 2 sec .. thus after 5 secs you 'only' have 2 (and a half) confirmations

Recommended confirmation when the network is above something like 75% delegate participation is 1 block. With DPOS one block confirmation is actually more secure than 6 block confirmation of bitcoin.

Ggozzo

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 03:53:22 PM »
So 1 confirmation every 2seconds?  How many confirmations before maturity?  What about transactions? How many per second now and what are the goals?

clout

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2014, 03:59:29 PM »
So 1 confirmation every 2seconds?  How many confirmations before maturity?  What about transactions? How many per second now and what are the goals?

Blocks are produced every 10 seconds. 1 block confirmation. The network can handle 10 transactions per second. Goal is to get to Visa's 10,000 tps.

Ggozzo

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2014, 05:10:44 PM »
So 1 confirmation every 2seconds?  How many confirmations before maturity?  What about transactions? How many per second now and what are the goals?

Blocks are produced every 10 seconds. 1 block confirmation. The network can handle 10 transactions per second. Goal is to get to Visa's 10,000 tps.

10-10000 is a huge difference. How does it get to 10,000?

clout

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Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2014, 05:26:56 PM »
So 1 confirmation every 2seconds?  How many confirmations before maturity?  What about transactions? How many per second now and what are the goals?

Blocks are produced every 10 seconds. 1 block confirmation. The network can handle 10 transactions per second. Goal is to get to Visa's 10,000 tps.

10-10000 is a huge difference. How does it get to 10,000?

The same way that bitcoin became the worlds largest super computer (specific for a single operation - SHA256 hashing). Delegates are just like miners, but instead of purchasing hashing power they will be purchasing computational resources that allow for a greater transaction load. Right now the network is handling 10 tps with people using their personal computers. In 6-months to a years time delegates will be using the same hardware that visa uses to process transactions. Bitshares decentralizes what visa does, streamlining the transaction process to allow for lower fees for users. This is an entirely scalable solution to decentralized transaction processing, which can not be said about the other projects in the crypto-currency space.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Latest stats please.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 06:47:25 PM »
Quote
This is an entirely scalable solution to decentralized transaction processing, which can not be said about the other projects in the crypto-currency space.

I think this is something that deserves an entire blog article that gets published on our site.   Anyone care to write about the scalability issue?
Quote
Today the Bitcoin network is restricted to a sustained rate of 7 tps by some artificial limits. These were put in place to stop people from ballooning the size of the block chain before the network and community was ready for it. Once those limits are lifted, the maximum transaction rate will go up significantly.

Bitcoin is currently able (with a couple of simple optimizations that are prototyped but not merged yet) to perform around 8000 signature verifications per second on an quad core Intel Core i7-2670QM 2.2Ghz processor. The average number of inputs per transaction is around 2, so we must halve the rate. This means 4000 tps is easily achievable CPU-wise with a single fairly mainstream CPU.

Let's assume an average rate of 2000tps, so just VISA. Transactions vary in size from about 0.2 kilobytes to over 1 kilobyte, but it's averaging half a kilobyte today.

That means that you need to keep up with around 8 megabits/second of transaction data (2000tps * 512 bytes) / 1024 bytes in a kilobyte / 1024 kilobytes in a megabyte = 0.97 megabytes per second * 8 = 7.8 megabits/second.

This sort of bandwidth is already common for even residential connections today, and is certainly at the low end of what colocation providers would expect to provide you with.

When blocks are solved, the current protocol will send the transactions again, even if a peer has already seen it at broadcast time. Fixing this to make blocks just list of hashes would resolve the issue and make the bandwidth needed for block broadcast negligable. So whilst this optimization isn't fully implemented today, we do not consider block transmission bandwidth here.

At very high transaction rates each block can be over half a gigabyte in size.

It is not required for most fully validating nodes to store the entire chain. In Satoshi's paper he describes "pruning", a way to delete unnecessary data about transactions that are fully spent. This reduces the amount of data that is needed for a fully validating node to be only the size of the current unspent output size, plus some additional data that is needed to handle re-orgs. As of October 2012 (block 203258) there have been 7,979,231 transactions, however the size of the unspent output set is less than 100MiB, which is small enough to easily fit in RAM for even quite old computers.

Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary.

The primary limiting factor in Bitcoin's performance is disk seeks once the unspent transaction output set stops fitting in memory. It is quite possible that the set will always fit in memory on dedicated server class machines, if hardware advances faster than Bitcoin usage does.

We have the same kind of scalability challenges.  However, in the evaluation of Bitcoin they did not consider that on average you must send out each transaction more than once and the protocol overhead mean the real bandwidth requirement is likely 3x as much as they state. 

So the real requirement to be a full node on the network at scale is likely:
   100 Megabytes / Second
   256 GB of RAM or more
   TB of flash disk storage

Then we have block propagation delay.  They claim a CPU can validate 2-4K transactions per second, but if you are running at full speed then anyone more than 1 hop away from the producer will be unable to validate and relay the block in time and the result will be many forks.    I contend that the CPU must be able to validate the block in no more than 10% of the block interval to avoid forks (assuming 6 degrees of separation).  This means that their 4000 TPS falls to 400 TPS on the standard computer.

Therefore, at these speeds I suspect you will require a 32 core or more machine to process transactions at low enough latency to avoid forks.

All of these specs are easily achievable by most small businesses today on a machine/hosting service that likely costs just a few thousand dollars per month to operate. 

The scalability issue with bitcoin is POW, so all we need to consider is Nxt / Peer coin.    With Nxt / Peer coin the average user is unlikely to earn enough from fees to cover the cost of operating a node at this scale and this is why users need to delegate their authority to others so you can concentration of capital in a manner that is still decentralized and in control of the average users.   


   
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