Author Topic: Why DPOS is better than other POS  (Read 24683 times)

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Offline svk

Small typo in the second paragraph last sentence. "Recently Nxt added leased forging which allows one user do to delegate their forging power to another user." Is there a preferred way for suggesting changes?

You can do so on github at https://github.com/bytemaster/bytemaster.github.io, but @bytemaster isn't keeping up with his pull requests!
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Offline lafona

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Small typo in the second paragraph last sentence. "Recently Nxt added leased forging which allows one user do to delegate their forging power to another user." Is there a preferred way for suggesting changes?
BTS Witnesses: delegate-1.lafona     Witness Thread: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21569.msg280911/topicseen.html#msg280911
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Offline bytemaster

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline arhag

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Bump.   I need to revisit this for my blog.

I think it would be great if your blog could address how consensus is ultimately a social process (not purely an algorithmic one) and how tools like DPOS help automate the consensus process, and related to that how nothing-at-stake and checkpoints aren't actually significant problems.

It seems many Bitcoiners are too hung up on the objectively pure consensus process that PoW provides despite its many obvious downsides. I think the way to approach the debate is to say that PoS (and DPOS as well, as it is a PoS system) makes the value judgment to give up the benefits/convenience of some of that objectivity for other benefits such as economic and environmental efficiency and easier long-term decentralization while still maintaining security and consensus that is more than good enough. I'm still having trouble figuring out how to best phrase these concepts.

Offline mint chocolate chip

Bump.   I need to revisit this for my blog.

Yup, it appears DPOS is still better than other POS.

Offline bytemaster

Bump.   I need to revisit this for my blog. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

merockstar

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Man, as delicious as that tip sounds, I think its time to concede that this topic is over my head.

I would like to formally invite anybody whose interested/capable to copy/paste/alter my work to try to bring this to completion, it seems like an important subject.

Offline bytemaster

Is the 10TPS limit based on current processing limitations or is it due to block sizes and propagation times? ie: is it possible that DPOS can scale out past the 10,000 odd TPS that the visa network handles? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else.
There are no limits with DPOS.

Thanks for the prompt reply, is the blocksize dynamic with DPOS then?

Yes delegates can produce any size blocks they like and the shareholders vote on delegates that apply reasonable limits for the changing market conditions.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline liondani

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Offline donkeypong

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Offline Myshadow

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Is the 10TPS limit based on current processing limitations or is it due to block sizes and propagation times? ie: is it possible that DPOS can scale out past the 10,000 odd TPS that the visa network handles? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else.
There are no limits with DPOS.

Thanks for the prompt reply, is the blocksize dynamic with DPOS then?

Offline bytemaster

When it comes to hardware, as long as the system fits within commodity budgets the cost to scale is close enough to linear, but as soon as you cross certain thresholds the cost goes non-linear.   

In 1995 we had the internet but the cost of buying a computer able to handle Bitcoin today would have been beyond astronomical.  1 GB of ram was not even possible except for high-end mainframe super computers.  (I think I had 8 MB at the time, and 250 MB HD).  The CPU power required would have been beyond reach along with the storage requirements.   Today those same requirements are trivial and cost insignificant.   I think it is fair to say that Moores Law will keep technology ahead of adoption assuming the next 20 years sees similar growth as the last 20 and transaction volume of the economy grows with population.  That said sequential processing has slowed its growth rate while we move to parallel processing.   

So the point is really one of relative fees and the value of having those fees available to reinvest in the ecosystem vs lowing transaction fees.   I am going to make an argument that a $0.01 cent fee is so low that few will bend over to pick it up... it is effectively equivalent to a fee of $0.00.    So based on my charts we could see that 500 nodes could be funded easily at 1 TPS and perhaps more nodes at 10 TPS.   This assumes there is no labor overhead.

Is the 10TPS limit based on current processing limitations or is it due to block sizes and propagation times? ie: is it possible that DPOS can scale out past the 10,000 odd TPS that the visa network handles? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else.

There are no limits with DPOS.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Myshadow

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When it comes to hardware, as long as the system fits within commodity budgets the cost to scale is close enough to linear, but as soon as you cross certain thresholds the cost goes non-linear.   

In 1995 we had the internet but the cost of buying a computer able to handle Bitcoin today would have been beyond astronomical.  1 GB of ram was not even possible except for high-end mainframe super computers.  (I think I had 8 MB at the time, and 250 MB HD).  The CPU power required would have been beyond reach along with the storage requirements.   Today those same requirements are trivial and cost insignificant.   I think it is fair to say that Moores Law will keep technology ahead of adoption assuming the next 20 years sees similar growth as the last 20 and transaction volume of the economy grows with population.  That said sequential processing has slowed its growth rate while we move to parallel processing.   

So the point is really one of relative fees and the value of having those fees available to reinvest in the ecosystem vs lowing transaction fees.   I am going to make an argument that a $0.01 cent fee is so low that few will bend over to pick it up... it is effectively equivalent to a fee of $0.00.    So based on my charts we could see that 500 nodes could be funded easily at 1 TPS and perhaps more nodes at 10 TPS.   This assumes there is no labor overhead.

Is the 10TPS limit based on current processing limitations or is it due to block sizes and propagation times? ie: is it possible that DPOS can scale out past the 10,000 odd TPS that the visa network handles? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else.

Offline santaclause102

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Thanks for the highlighting! Great and probably most sophisticated analysis on the stuff to date.
My comments: Decentralization can not primarily or at least not only be measured by the number of delegates but must be measured by the lowest number of individuals controlling 51% of all delegates.

Do you disagree with my comparison of DPOS vs. POS (it's a comparison of delegation vs. non delegation not of DPOS as it is vs. NXT-POS as it is)? https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-pos-vs-bitshares-dpos/
It's been a neutral and constructive discussion.

Here is a different approach towards improving on Bitcoin (some inspiration): https://github.com/skycoin/whitepapers
Seems right in it's assessment of Bitcoin's flaws. The solution roughly is a network of nodes that form a web of trust.

Offline CLains

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omg this is great!!  +5% +5%

such a crucial issue