Author Topic: My friends, gather closely.  (Read 17342 times)

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Offline Empirical1

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I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.

$1500 for free stake in not launched coin is limited success for you?

Yes.

NXT has the worst distribution in the world, 21 BTC raised and 70 initial holders.
Yet so far the biggest contender, which started distributing stakes to thousands of people, only a couple of months after NXT was launched and had the support of some NXT devs, still isn't worth 1/44th of the original,  is for me so far anyway, limited success.

(As in forking and re-distributing even against the worst distribution of NXT, where it's clearly the achilles heel hasn't done better, surprises me, but then as you say they haven't launched and also they have had controversy. I have a NEM stake so I don't mind if they do well.) 



Offline CLains

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The DPOScoin is a good idea, perhaps with another name. Depos? Deco?

Can be promoted with "get your Deco stake!" and "particiapte in democratic delegation!"

10% inflation to produce worlds first "democratic, self-sustaining and eco-friendly cryptocurrency"

;)

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 03:47:53 pm by CLains »

Offline luckybit

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if you're going to do a share drop to everybody then do a faucet.  It looks half as bad and nobody who's interested, or becomes interested later, will feel excluded


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The reason for the plan as it was originally figured out was to give other coins the ability to be honored in much the same way Bitcoin was by BTSX--only in a way that would provide a more inclusive user/developer base as well as honoring other "coins" that have worked hard to build a solid product.  This would essentially make the DAC a strong, autonomous marketing tool (which is needed), and a way to distribute shares of other DACs. 

Plus, the Benefits of this DAC being part of the BitShares ecosystem means that it has significant advantages over other coin lottos...
As far as people getting something for nothing...most of the people Share-dropped to in this manner would be those members initially involved in donating so that shouldn't be considered unfair. 

It would also serve to give people incentive to complete all the steps Invictus needs users to complete in order to gain access to this DAC.  Of course, this DAC could also later award shares in other DACs (after the other coin faucets dry up).
It's a better name but it has to be carefully thought out.

Probably not the best idea to call it a "casino" because people might start treating it as one. It's definitely a game and should be marketed as a serious game but if it's called a "casino" then it's going to raise unnecessary questions. If you must keep the name Bitshares Diamond Casino then thats fine but I'd prefer if you call it Bitshares Diamond Faucet and avoid all direct references toward gambling/betting if possible just because of the regulatory confusion especially since New York is having these discussions.

No matter the fundamental concepts are what matter and how it gets defined in terms of marketing can happen after the fact.

The Bitshares Diamond "Faucet" has a lot of strategic advantages. It does the marketing for us so we don't have to do the heavy lifting. It distributes for us as well and it tracks the interest level of different DACs. The one thing we need for marketing is community feedback and metrics and that is what we currently do not have right now.

We need to know which demographics for example are most interested in our technology. We'd instantly know this information which means this DAC could provide valuable marketing statistic information.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 01:52:48 pm by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

if you're going to do a share drop to everybody then do a faucet.  It looks half as bad and nobody who's interested, or becomes interested later, will feel excluded


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The reason for the plan as it was originally figured out was to give other coins the ability to be honored in much the same way Bitcoin was by BTSX--only in a way that would provide a more inclusive user/developer base as well as honoring other "coins" that have worked hard to build a solid product.  This would essentially make the DAC a strong, autonomous marketing tool (which is needed), and a way to distribute shares of other DACs. 

Plus, the Benefits of this DAC being part of the BitShares ecosystem means that it has significant advantages over other coin lottos...
As far as people getting something for nothing...most of the people Share-dropped to in this manner would be those members initially involved in donating so that shouldn't be considered unfair. 

It would also serve to give people incentive to complete all the steps Invictus needs users to complete in order to gain access to this DAC.  Of course, this DAC could also later award shares in other DACs (after the other coin faucets dry up). 
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline liondani

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What about what bytemaster had in his mind in past:
 "for someone to setup and maintain an open source faucet application for BTS chains"

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4880.0

the bonus they give for referrals could be a portion of PTS?


Some more details on this particular project:

The goal is only one per person.   
I want to add SMS verification.
I want to add Referral Rewards
I want to integrate this service with our wallet.

The service should not store email addresses after sending emails, only the hash of the email addresses.

The factors that prove uniqueness:
1) email
2) phone
3) gravatar account

If someone wants to fake all 3 then that is fine.

I would like to support finding friends on Google / Facebook for 'automatic referral'.

So if someone you refer ends up signing up you get a bonus.     

Now we have financial incentive for people to sign up unique individuals and to refer their friends.   


New users will be able to use our DACs without ever having to see or know about the existence of public keys / private keys.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:55:40 am by liondani »

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if you're going to do a share drop to everybody then do a faucet.  It looks half as bad and nobody who's interested, or becomes interested later, will feel excluded


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Offline fuzzy

Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


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I agree. They have to show actually want it. You must make them apply or sign up or opt in. Kind of like if you put a new coin on an exchange and there was no demand for it then nothing happens. It has to be something people from the other community are proven to have shown interest in.

When two communities have a lot in common already then its easy to know what they might be interested in (PoS communities have similar interests and goals). When it's Proof of Work then it's not going to be as straight forward because there is more social distance between the two communities. Social distance makes collaboration more difficult.

Changed it, does this look better?
We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:
  • 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

  • 15% for 2nd place

  • 10% for 3rd

  • 7.5% for 4th

  • 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution.  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips.   (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway ;)

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline luckybit

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Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


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I agree. They have to show actually want it. You must make them apply or sign up or opt in. Kind of like if you put a new coin on an exchange and there was no demand for it then nothing happens. It has to be something people from the other community are proven to have shown interest in.

When two communities have a lot in common already then its easy to know what they might be interested in (PoS communities have similar interests and goals). When it's Proof of Work then it's not going to be as straight forward because there is more social distance between the two communities. Social distance makes collaboration more difficult.

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bitbro

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Any bullshit share drop  distribution will be looked at as a negative down the road


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Offline luckybit

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@Fuznuts +5%

I like the idea. I don't know if we should call it "Bitshares Diamond" because what if a BitAsset is also "BitDiamond" and there is confusion between what it is tracking? Kind of like the problem we'd have with calling it "Bitshares Gold". I would call it Bitshares *.  Bitshares * would be pronounced Bitshares Wildcard. The diamond would work great as part of a meme in the advertising/logo so that users associate the diamond logo with Bitshares Wildcard.

Overall though I think it's the best way to create an on-ramp into our ecosystem which feels a lot like mining to the players.

What you describe is how I would do it for PoW communities.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:21:43 am by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

oh...almost forgot.  After Chips faucets dry out, Invictus could also use this as a way to let players "mine" extra shares in upcoming/new DACs that honor PTS/AGS.
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline fuzzy

We have already talked about this a good bit.  One solution proposed was one where Invictus uses the BitShares Lotto DAC and the Lotto DAC holds an AGS Style competition for the distribution (denominated in PTS).  All coins can donate and receive recognition in the Genesis Block, but only 50-70% of the total Lotto ticket supply are distributed to donaters. 

See the following example:
  • 20% for top donated coin (Peercoin)

  • 15% for 2nd place

  • 10% for 3rd

  • 7.5% for 4th

  • 5% for 5th…etc

     The Bitshares Lotto stores a % of funds collected (30%?) for development, burns the other donated coins and turns them into "chips" that represent their coin (for instance, PeerChips, NameChips, DarkChips, LiteChips...etc).   To protect from a huge number of sh!t (read P&D) coins being donated, instate a market cap limit (no coins under ______ market cap) to ensure only the trusted (more stable) coins are donated.
     Now build in a feature where users who bet with Lotto Tickets gain access to an added random reward (a faucet) for the rest of the donated coins—that go directly to the user's inbox (which they can Accept, Gift to a friend or charitable institution).  Win or lose your game, you are guaranteed an extra “roll” for a consolation prize in these chips.  Have tables and games for each of these coins, but make Lotto Shares special because, well—none of the other coins give people the extra chance of winning a potential pot of the donated chips-- (Make the payouts relatively infrequent, but large enough to really feel like a jackpot.)
     Now make it Sexy: Change BitShares Lotto to BitShares Diamond Casino and Lotto Tickets to DiamondChips (they are a girl's best friend, after all) because they are the token in the ecosystem whose use awards random chips.  Once the Faucet dries up for each Chip in circulation, they float at the approximate value of the coin that was burned and Diamonds will carry a premium for the wonderful distribution they provide.   

     Make the donation period last a period of 180 Days and give people another chance (and incentive) to learn about how AGS funding and snapshots work before the launch occurs. 

//Genesis Block Message
"Herein lies the Names and Greatest Honors for the founders and builders of Bitshares Diamonds' Casino and Lottery.  A Historic Alliance was forged today by some of the most forward thinking visionaries in Cryptocurrency.  The Contest has closed and the following cryptocoins will make it to "Chip" status:
1st Place:  123,000 PPC for a total of 41,000 PTS   (awarded 20% total BitShares Diamonds supply)
2nd Place:  74,000 NMC for a total of 30703.9627039627 PTS
Etc...

Welcome to the first ever enterprise-level Decentralized Casino and Lottery Platform and know that you were here from the beginning.  "

Now make sure to set the faucet so distribution takes at least a few months so users get in a habit of playing.  Let all the altcoin communities that were honored help advertise BitShares Diamond DAC (especially the number 1 donater, who was awarded as much as PTS/AGS holders).  They will likely soon enough become PTS holders anyway ;)

*Final note(s):
-Announce plans right after BitShares X goes live and buzz is high

-Branding BitShares Diamonds early on and getting the word out is important--branding in this way also plays upon a long-time human adoration for diamonds (though their value largely relies on cartels managing the supply).

-Make a play to both strengthen the value proposition for BitShares X and Bitshares Diamonds early on so the value proposition becomes; announce that a small % of BTSx will be thrown into the pool that will be distributed through BitShares Diamond Games as a special class of reward. * 
 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:45:53 am by fuznuts »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline luckybit

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Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst  :)  … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

Read some of my posts on doing that. I have a 50/50 plan. But it's about communities not the assets and the community has to want to merge with us otherwise it's a hostile take over and we will be viewed as foreign invaders (which we don't want to be viewed as this early in the game).

Crypto-mergers in my opinion should initially take place between PoS communities which each have something to gain from it. The split should be 50/50 so that each community gets a shared sense of win from the procedure.

Don't worry about PoW currencies like Bitcoin. Their miners have the least to gain and most to lose from our technology.
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Offline Mrrr

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In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business.

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.

The mining subsidy of bitcoin isn't directly felt due to the non-linear increase in demand versus the rather linear increase in supply. Combined with the enormous network effect, you have a problem that consumers will typically stay with the sub-optimal standard. Asking people to migrate to a better standard when the old one is still making them money and sufficient for the needs of value transactions is a tough nut to crack. One can say hey we are better for the following reasons (I think apple did it best ->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnX6XRQBec), but ultimately, consumers are lazy.

Getting people to do something new usually requires a hook of some kind. With proof of stake, you have to premine the supply. So why not just distribute amongst a basket of currencies and use it as a hook? If the coin starts to get market value, then people have a stake in protecting it and will naturally become surrogates. The keys are properly engineering the basket, the value bootstrap and consistent release cycles. The Nxt team got two of the three right, but succumbed to greed for the distribution. Ironically, if they had simply given the coin away via a snapshot distribution and bought up cheap coins during the initial launch, then they probably would have had similarly sized stakes without any fairness fallout. This action would have also created the perception of demand for Nxt, combined with clever marketing, could have made it a legitimate contender to replace bitcoin (and why not, roger will still have a lot of Nxt).

The whole thing really just seems like a wasted opportunity to me. 


I have yet to come up with a reply towards mr. Hoskinson's sharp observations. I'd like to point out however, that a community that is still fapping to Gisele Bundchen in an Apple commercial is a long way from attaining public acceptance.

Offline Empirical1

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Some people had similar ideas. I believe the general consensus was it is too aggressive and we should ask them thirst  :)  … my opinion is more close to yours btw.

Strike where there is weakness and partner where there is strength. You can ask them to adopt a new coin or you can tell them you have a gift for everyone in the Nxt community- it's about how you say things. That said, what I've found from the Nxt community is that it is serving as a sink for most of the experienced java developers in the Cryptocurrency space. I honestly don't think they will recover from the botched initial distribution, but it's not stopping the devs from having fun building a more mature codebase. A pity they can't be redirected to more useful projects.

 +5%

Love this post! It's about how you say things and how others perceive you. If we come across as generous they will board our ship.


I'm pretty much for trying these ideas but I would say it's essentially what NEM tried to do for NXT (Solve NXT's botched initial distribution problem, invite them & the other communities to get free stakes, even had support of some NXT devs.) But even before the recent controversy it looked like it was achieving limited success vs. the original.


In order to grow, business owners typically hold strong to their shares as much as possible and pump the services, capabilities and products of their business. 

If crypto "currency" were actually valuable because of the service it performs, then we wouldn't need to give away ownership.


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 +5% Even though I don't mind trying out sharedrop ideas I lean towards that pov.

But with real world products free product samples can be very effective & with crypto-currency, the currency is the product... So there are some blurred lines. However In real life, free samples are just a form of marketing and as such represent a % of the marketing budget.

So I suspect we'll find that giving most of the equity to a strong supportive community like X did will result in a good starting CAP & releasing 10% equity for marketing with up to half of that going to Sharedrops will probably be the best marketing strategy for a new DAC product/service.

For a currency specific product it may be a little different but giving away most of the equity in Sharedrops seems like it would logically value the currency initially as pretty worthless and all attempts so far have pretty much confirmed that. Any attempts to buy up significant shares or award yourself multiple stakes like NEM did, while pretending to be fair in a socialist kind of way is pretty risky.

Nothing wrong with trying some of the distribution ideas out though.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 04:18:51 am by Empirical1 »