Author Topic: Get rid of init delegates  (Read 8256 times)

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Offline bdnoble

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Code: [Select]
>> wallet_account_transaction_history angel

RECEIVED            BLOCK     FROM                TO                  AMOUNT                  MEMO                                        BALANCE                 FEE                 ID     
=============================================================================================================================================================================================
2014-07-19T20:13:23 5999      founders            angel               0.00000 BTSX            register angel                              0.00000 BTSX            0.00000 BTSX        6dae8d9
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               58,783,758.26081 BTSX   claim PaNGELmZgzRQCKeEKM6ifgTqNkC4ceiAWw    58,783,758.26081 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               6.44000 BTSX            claim PkC5oBxxY6gSrBEbxkjCLFQnzzqvAKZV1V    58,783,764.70081 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               6.44200 BTSX            claim PdHvncH2w8A2mXobJVevaQcTLD1MUvob4R    58,783,771.14281 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               6.44200 BTSX            claim PjadfkbV2EYCCR6VxTYMfscxcdebW63QTM    58,783,777.58481 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:15:17 6009      angel               angel               58,783,777.00000 BTSX   vote                                        58,783,777.48481 BTSX   0.10000 BTSX        b93b341
2014-07-21T13:17:09 19946     angel               angel               58,783,777.00000 BTSX   vote                                        58,783,777.48481 BTSX   0.10000 BTSX        cc9aa14
2014-07-21T14:16:30 20279     angel               angel               58,783,777.00000 BTSX   vote                                        58,783,777.48481 BTSX   0.10000 BTSX        1744b39


SWEET! I'M IN! Thank you for the opportunity!!!!!
:)

Offline bytemaster

I allowed a few more people in and unvoted some of the init delegates and the network fell to condition yellow.... with 85% participation rate. 

For the health of the network while it is still young having a strong core at is important.  Once we get back to condition green I will remove some more init delegates.

In the mean time we are working on many bug fixes.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline liondani

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How do you get rid of the initial delegates?

If it's about voting and disapproving of them, shouldn't it be easier than it has been?

We have a HUGE list of delegates trying to be the real deal, but somehow they are not able to get enough votes like myself.

I believe the fact that since there are still users with multiple delegates and all the initial delegates are still actively approved, delegation and community consensus is failing.  I was under the impression it would be more of a popularity contest not a deepest pockets contest. Yesterday it said the top delegate had over 4% approval. If I am interpreting this correctly, he has 80 million BTS backing him right? This roughly translates to over 1600 BTC in worth.  I am going to go out on a limb and say most people own 100,000 BTS or less like myself, around 2 BTC worth. It looks like the bottom delegate has near 1% approval.  So I have to find a really big fish or get 200 others like myself to vote me in to become a delegate at the bottom of the list. This is not the big problem, because who really cares if I can't become a delegate or someone like me.

The real problem is that the community consensus is to get rid of the initDelegates, yet there they are. Still producing blocks. The voice isn't as loud as the pockets are deep, and this is a problem that probably can't be solved.  This also can create a negative perception to the outsiders coming in.  Centralization issues.

As memorycoin proved, the community doesn't participate unless it will benefit the individual. While delegates can destroy fees, it is clear that the community doesn't care about that and shows me that the only voting participants are the ones who are trying to become delegates or are already a delegate.

We need 2 things to happen now; initial delegates need to be voted out and any person running multiple delegates need to be voted  out. This is all in the interest of decentralization.  I am not saying this to get votes. I clearly don't have enough weight to become a delegate (I thought I'd be campaigning for the House, but instead it's the Senate) and will likely pull the plug when I get home from work.

1.We must not vote out a person with multiple delegates but let only one delegate per person in... (But how do we know that ?)
2.We must vote for delegates they have low pay rates.
3.init delegate must unvote themselves and vote standby delegates and make big transfers to his own accounts ...
4.bytemaster must change things a little bit to give the opportunity to more people (not delegates! since all 101 active delegates could have one owner :-X ) to participate on block production   (many discusions taken place in past, please reconsider ) https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5317.msg70741#msg70741
5.Give motive to average users to vote even if they are not their self a delegate... this: Integrating betting using BTSX for votes... https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5386.msg72235#msg72235

think about it, even we, the "insiders", now on the beginning, with the advantage of low fees (for creating delegates) and our forum reputation, have a very hard time to participate! What will happen in future with newcomers?
Nobody will even make a try to participate ... Centralization will come sooner then we think...

PS we have criticized NXT that they give the illusion to forgers that it is worth forging ... At least that Illusion makes people participating... When people see how hard it is to participate on BTSX block production what do you think will happen?

PS just spreading some "random" thoughts/ideas (good and bad) with the hope I give food for thoughts and maybe inspire  to help finding innovating, even totally different, solutions/ideas...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:16:00 pm by liondani »

Offline bdnoble

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You have to understand that this early in the game many people who made long-term investments see no reason to bring their stake online and thus there is a lot of idle support.

It has always been the case that those with a lot of stake have a lot of influence, particularly if they are active.   Give it time, this isn't permanent centralization like you see with the other systems.   This network is growing more decentralized by the day.

Don't you have a large amount of stake? Who are you voting for? I have to imagine that your votes would make a difference in bumping some more people over the init delegates. Would you consider voting for me? :)
:)

Offline bytemaster

Code: [Select]
>> wallet_account_transaction_history angel

RECEIVED            BLOCK     FROM                TO                  AMOUNT                  MEMO                                        BALANCE                 FEE                 ID     
=============================================================================================================================================================================================
2014-07-19T20:13:23 5999      founders            angel               0.00000 BTSX            register angel                              0.00000 BTSX            0.00000 BTSX        6dae8d9
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               58,783,758.26081 BTSX   claim PaNGELmZgzRQCKeEKM6ifgTqNkC4ceiAWw    58,783,758.26081 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               6.44000 BTSX            claim PkC5oBxxY6gSrBEbxkjCLFQnzzqvAKZV1V    58,783,764.70081 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               6.44200 BTSX            claim PdHvncH2w8A2mXobJVevaQcTLD1MUvob4R    58,783,771.14281 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:13:47 0         GENESIS             angel               6.44200 BTSX            claim PjadfkbV2EYCCR6VxTYMfscxcdebW63QTM    58,783,777.58481 BTSX   0.00000 BTSX        VIRTUAL
2014-07-19T20:15:17 6009      angel               angel               58,783,777.00000 BTSX   vote                                        58,783,777.48481 BTSX   0.10000 BTSX        b93b341
2014-07-21T13:17:09 19946     angel               angel               58,783,777.00000 BTSX   vote                                        58,783,777.48481 BTSX   0.10000 BTSX        cc9aa14
2014-07-21T14:16:30 20279     angel               angel               58,783,777.00000 BTSX   vote                                        58,783,777.48481 BTSX   0.10000 BTSX        1744b39
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 02:54:39 pm by bytemaster »
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Ggozzo

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I understand that it is early. This is all the more reason for the push away from centralization needs to start now. People with multiple delegates need to reduce to one and DACsun. need to reduce down to one.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening. The prospect of huge returns is why we are all here and why those people won't let go.

Was my math right?

Offline bytemaster

You have to understand that this early in the game many people who made long-term investments see no reason to bring their stake online and thus there is a lot of idle support.

It has always been the case that those with a lot of stake have a lot of influence, particularly if they are active.   Give it time, this isn't permanent centralization like you see with the other systems.   This network is growing more decentralized by the day.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Ggozzo

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How do you get rid of the initial delegates?

If it's about voting and disapproving of them, shouldn't it be easier than it has been?

We have a HUGE list of delegates trying to be the real deal, but somehow they are not able to get enough votes like myself.

I believe the fact that since there are still users with multiple delegates and all the initial delegates are still actively approved, delegation and community consensus is failing.  I was under the impression it would be more of a popularity contest not a deepest pockets contest. Yesterday it said the top delegate had over 4% approval. If I am interpreting this correctly, he has 80 million BTS backing him right? This roughly translates to over 1600 BTC in worth.  I am going to go out on a limb and say most people own 100,000 BTS or less like myself, around 2 BTC worth. It looks like the bottom delegate has near 1% approval.  So I have to find a really big fish or get 200 others like myself to vote me in to become a delegate at the bottom of the list. This is not the big problem, because who really cares if I can't become a delegate or someone like me.

The real problem is that the community consensus is to get rid of the initDelegates, yet there they are. Still producing blocks. The voice isn't as loud as the pockets are deep, and this is a problem that probably can't be solved.  This also can create a negative perception to the outsiders coming in.  Centralization issues.

As memorycoin proved, the community doesn't participate unless it will benefit the individual. While delegates can destroy fees, it is clear that the community doesn't care about that and shows me that the only voting participants are the ones who are trying to become delegates or are already a delegate.

We need 2 things to happen now; initial delegates need to be voted out and any person running multiple delegates need to be voted  out. This is all in the interest of decentralization.  I am not saying this to get votes. I clearly don't have enough weight to become a delegate (I thought I'd be campaigning for the House, but instead it's the Senate) and will likely pull the plug when I get home from work.

Offline bitmeat

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That also might mean that you have that much less than before when you originally casted your vote.

Offline xeroc

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Example I tried to send a bunch of BTSX to my delegate to vote for itself and it caused it to subtract votes from previously voted for delegates.
That should equal the transaction fee!

Offline Riverhead

I intend to vote for the most promising delegates other than init* tomorrow when I get a chance.  We need a very diversified group of delegates and the whales want that as well. 

The init delegates have no incentive to harm the network and have no extra power.   If you want them out then find a measly 3.9% of the shareholders to take care of it.

Right now the funds received from the PTS angel address are voting for many of the initial delegates, but also some of the other delegates.   I plan on using those funds to bring in more delegates tomorrow.

I also don't think shareholders are aware how the voting works. To my knowledge only amounts transferred really affect votes. Can you clarify?

Is there a good infographic about that? My experience showed that unless I transfer ALL my BTSX to myself - the vote count doesn't really matter.

So in other words when people do wallet_approve_delegate kpd-1 they don't really cast any reasonable size vote until they TRANSFER their shares (even if to themselves)


If you look at a transaction of a vote where you do a large transfer it takes away from others.  As if each BTSX in your wallet gets one vote.  Example I tried to send a bunch of BTSX to my delegate to vote for itself and it caused it to subtract votes from previously voted for delegates.



Offline puppies

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I intend to vote for the most promising delegates other than init* tomorrow when I get a chance.  We need a very diversified group of delegates and the whales want that as well. 

The init delegates have no incentive to harm the network and have no extra power.   If you want them out then find a measly 3.9% of the shareholders to take care of it.

Right now the funds received from the PTS angel address are voting for many of the initial delegates, but also some of the other delegates.   I plan on using those funds to bring in more delegates tomorrow.



I also don't think shareholders are aware how the voting works. To my knowledge only amounts transferred really affect votes. Can you clarify?

Is there a good infographic about that? My experience showed that unless I transfer ALL my BTSX to myself - the vote count doesn't really matter.

So in other words when people do wallet_approve_delegate kpd-1 they don't really cast any reasonable size vote until they TRANSFER their shares (even if to themselves)

Last I recall, you also only actually vote for a random subset of your upvoted delegates.  This was put in place to improve anonymity.
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Offline bitmeat

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I intend to vote for the most promising delegates other than init* tomorrow when I get a chance.  We need a very diversified group of delegates and the whales want that as well. 

The init delegates have no incentive to harm the network and have no extra power.   If you want them out then find a measly 3.9% of the shareholders to take care of it.

Right now the funds received from the PTS angel address are voting for many of the initial delegates, but also some of the other delegates.   I plan on using those funds to bring in more delegates tomorrow.

I also don't think shareholders are aware how the voting works. To my knowledge only amounts transferred really affect votes. Can you clarify?

Is there a good infographic about that? My experience showed that unless I transfer ALL my BTSX to myself - the vote count doesn't really matter.

So in other words when people do wallet_approve_delegate kpd-1 they don't really cast any reasonable size vote until they TRANSFER their shares (even if to themselves)

Offline xeroc

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I intend to vote for the most promising delegates other than init* tomorrow when I get a chance.  We need a very diversified group of delegates and the whales want that as well. 

The init delegates have no incentive to harm the network and have no extra power.   If you want them out then find a measly 3.9% of the shareholders to take care of it.

Right now the funds received from the PTS angel address are voting for many of the initial delegates, but also some of the other delegates.   I plan on using those funds to bring in more delegates tomorrow.
Thanks, Dan. It's good to know.
Just for the peace of investors' mind, could you keep a record of the following?
  • every transactions that the BTSX funds from PTS angel address has made
  • list of voted delegates
It's part of BitShares Trust Fund, and deserves a proper audit book like this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTwk-e7yzJydFZ3bVVWT0o1OUwzXzdESHFBY0FkUWc&usp=sharing#gid=0 .
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Offline sfinder

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please vote for me


Please vote for chinese

BTS X  delegate ID:chinese

Why vote for "chinese"?

1) I am cooperating with China Education Bookstore and will donate 20% of income to the poor students in China.  Donation details will be posted for public view.

2)I will destroy 20% of the fees and  my pay rate is 80%. It is my way to pay dividends to all the bitshares holders.

vote for "chinese"
wallet_approve_delegate chinese true

my delegate's server: professional hosted 4Cores CPU + 4GB RAM + 100GB SSD + anti-DDoS +  guaranteed 500Mbps bandwidth
微博:星在飘我在找|BTS X 受托人delegate ID:baidu
中国教育书店合作将20%收入捐献给贫困山区学生。
Cooperating with China Education Bookstore and will donate 20% of delegate income to the poor students