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Offline bitmeat

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Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« on: July 25, 2014, 04:20:45 PM »

Would it be possible to build in AGS rewards into creation of new assets?

Eg:

create_asset MYASSET 1000000 AGS:20%

Would create 1M shares of MYASSET and automatically reward 20% to AGS holders as of last snapshot.

In other words ability to take a snapshot of another asset on the chain.

As a reward - reduce registration fees based on how much AGS is rewarded.

I mean we could create tools to auto distribute the assets, but we can not reduce the fees without intervention in the protocol.

This will spur innovation as well as reward investors automatically.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 04:26:43 PM by happypatty »

Offline bitmeat

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Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 04:23:45 PM »
I should clarify this is more of a brainstorm than a firm proposal. So if you don't like it - propose an alternative idea. In a brainstorm session there is no right or wrong and no need to get hung up on implementation details until we got something more concrete. I know AGS is not on the chain as an asset. But we could include the data for the last snapshot just like we did the feb 28. Would be nice to not have to reimport over and over again.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 04:26:12 PM by happypatty »

Offline biophil

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Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 05:59:06 PM »
That would be cool, and it would be especially easy if AGS were made liquid on the BTSX blockchain, right?

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Offline bitmeat

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Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 12:53:38 AM »
You totally missed my point. Information about AGS donations as per the Feb 28th, ALREADY is in the blockchain. I'm not asking for AGS to be liquid on BTSX (Although I asked for it many times in the past it seems there is an issue making that happen) a 3rd party could make that happen though. It's just a question whether anyone would honor it.

All I'm asking is for them to also include information about the final snapshot, and make it so people could decide how much to air drop when creating new assets.

What I'm asking is incentivize rewards to the snapshot automatically for those creating new assets by giving them discount on the asset creation fee.

Isn't this like an obvious one?

Offline luckybit

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 01:31:39 AM »
Would it be possible to build in AGS rewards into creation of new assets?

Eg:

create_asset MYASSET 1000000 AGS:20%

Would create 1M shares of MYASSET and automatically reward 20% to AGS holders as of last snapshot.

In other words ability to take a snapshot of another asset on the chain.

As a reward - reduce registration fees based on how much AGS is rewarded.

I mean we could create tools to auto distribute the assets, but we can not reduce the fees without intervention in the protocol.

This will spur innovation as well as reward investors automatically.

That is a brilliant idea. How would we automate it as much as possible?

I think Bitshares really needs a scripting layer. I think team Vitalik was right on the power of scripting.
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Offline luckybit

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 01:44:50 AM »
Would it be possible to build in AGS rewards into creation of new assets?

Eg:

create_asset MYASSET 1000000 AGS:20%

Would create 1M shares of MYASSET and automatically reward 20% to AGS holders as of last snapshot.

In other words ability to take a snapshot of another asset on the chain.

As a reward - reduce registration fees based on how much AGS is rewarded.

I mean we could create tools to auto distribute the assets, but we can not reduce the fees without intervention in the protocol.

This will spur innovation as well as reward investors automatically.

If there was a scripting language I think it would be easily possible.

It might be able to look something like:

create_asset MYASSET 1000000
allocate AGS:10


Now here is some difference to how you did it. The allocate command should be flexible enough to allow the script writer to allocate to any BitAsset holders instead of just AGS and in any combination of them along with AGS.

Suppose for example I wanted to do:

create_asset MYNEWASSET 1000000
allocate AGS:10PTS:10BTC:10:BitGold:20


The result should be that it anyone on the Bitshares blockchain who holds these BitAssets would receive the percentages. In the case of AGS it's a bit harder but I suppose it would be technically possible.

The point is we need better scripting capability so we can write scripts which automate this stuff. The easier it is for people to do stuff like this the better it will for our blockchain volume. Remember in the original whitepaper one of the axioms was to automate.
Quote
All I'm asking is for them to also include information about the final snapshot, and make it so people could decide how much to air drop when creating new assets.

What I'm asking is incentivize rewards to the snapshot automatically for those creating new assets by giving them discount on the asset creation fee.

Isn't this like an obvious one?

I *see* where you're going with this. We do need a way to sharedrop from within Bitshares X itself and we need scripting abilities to automate all sorts of awesome smart contracts on the Bitshares chain. We can start with the example you elucidated upon.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 01:59:49 AM by luckybit »
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 03:19:36 AM »
yes I get you can do without actual liquid AGS. I was answering biophil, though.

Totally my bad, didn't even see biophil's post above.

Offline bitmeat

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Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 03:22:32 AM »
Yes, luckybit is getting it. Lack of scripting will hurt us with the Ethereum launch. However I'd rather have I3 focus on perfecting the prediction market and establish themselves in the field.

Truth is once Ethereum is out, Bitshares X could be scripted in like a week on the Ethereum protocol. But that's just the protocol. If I3 comes out with actual trading software then they will be a few steps ahead of the game.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:24:14 AM by happypatty »

Offline luckybit

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 03:41:58 PM »
Yes, luckybit is getting it. Lack of scripting will hurt us with the Ethereum launch. However I'd rather have I3 focus on perfecting the prediction market and establish themselves in the field.

Truth is once Ethereum is out, Bitshares X could be scripted in like a week on the Ethereum protocol. But that's just the protocol. If I3 comes out with actual trading software then they will be a few steps ahead of the game.

The reason I think we will need scripting sooner is because for something like a pegged market asset such as BitUSD there is no way human beings are going to be able to monitor for these arbitrage opportunities. Automated trading is the only way to make it work that I can see. I also don't think it has to be a complicated scripting language at first but just a way to string together useful commands so that some automation of trading becomes possible such that: If event1 then trade x for y. Maybe add margin trading to the mix and other possibilities soon after.

I don't think Bitshares X should wait for Ethereum in 2015. I think team Bitshares X should automate everything they can as soon as it's worth it to do so because anything which saves investors time will increase efficiency and utility of Bitshares.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:46:30 PM by luckybit »
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 03:45:17 PM »
Yes, luckybit is getting it. Lack of scripting will hurt us with the Ethereum launch. However I'd rather have I3 focus on perfecting the prediction market and establish themselves in the field.

Truth is once Ethereum is out, Bitshares X could be scripted in like a week on the Ethereum protocol. But that's just the protocol. If I3 comes out with actual trading software then they will be a few steps ahead of the game.

The reason I think we will need scripting sooner is because for something like a pegged market asset such as BitUSD there is no way human beings are going to be able to monitor for these opportunities. Automation is the only way to make it work that I can see. I also don't think it has to be a complicated scripting language at first but just a way to string together useful commands so that some automation of trading becomes possible such that If event1 then trade x. Maybe add margin trading to the mix and other possibilities soon after.

I don't think Bitshares X should wait for Ethereum in 2015. I think team Bitshares X should automate everything they can as soon as it's worth it to do so because anything which saves investors time will increase efficiency and utility of Bitshares.

You can always script something using the RPC to the client. This doesn't require the effort of I3. Anyone can create tools in this area. The point of Ethereum's scripting is that you can DEFINE contracts that run on the chain itself. I think Ethereum will become bloated because of that however. The right way to do this in my mind is with Smart Delegates that execute contracts offline, unless there is a dispute, then you bring it to the chain.

Offline luckybit

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 03:52:46 PM »
Yes, luckybit is getting it. Lack of scripting will hurt us with the Ethereum launch. However I'd rather have I3 focus on perfecting the prediction market and establish themselves in the field.

Truth is once Ethereum is out, Bitshares X could be scripted in like a week on the Ethereum protocol. But that's just the protocol. If I3 comes out with actual trading software then they will be a few steps ahead of the game.

The reason I think we will need scripting sooner is because for something like a pegged market asset such as BitUSD there is no way human beings are going to be able to monitor for these opportunities. Automation is the only way to make it work that I can see. I also don't think it has to be a complicated scripting language at first but just a way to string together useful commands so that some automation of trading becomes possible such that If event1 then trade x. Maybe add margin trading to the mix and other possibilities soon after.

I don't think Bitshares X should wait for Ethereum in 2015. I think team Bitshares X should automate everything they can as soon as it's worth it to do so because anything which saves investors time will increase efficiency and utility of Bitshares.

You can always script something using the RPC to the client. This doesn't require the effort of I3. Anyone can create tools in this area. The point of Ethereum's scripting is that you can DEFINE contracts that run on the chain itself. I think Ethereum will become bloated because of that however. The right way to do this in my mind is with Smart Delegates that execute contracts offline, unless there is a dispute, then you bring it to the chain.

Sure I could or someone could but then I3 says in their original whitepaper that automation is one of their core axioms.

I'm not talking about doing what Ethereum is doing in the way they are doing it where contracts have to run on the blockchain itself. That is not what I endorsed or what I had in mind. I think Bitshares X should put focus into automation because users want to set it up, leave it and forget it.

Users (even the best traders) don't want to have to manually initiate every trade. Cryptsy for example and it can be set up to sell whatever you deposit automatically. Suppose in the Bitshares X client it can be set up to buy a specific BitAsset automatically whenever a certain event occurs and for instance the event is whenever there is income?

If it's built into Bitshares X it gives the community a way to contribute to the project by writing useful or compelling scripts. Certain scripts might be complicated and need to use the blockchain but then that would result in burning fees so I don't think it's a bad trade off. Increased utility in exchange for a higher burn rate?
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Offline luckybit

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 03:56:37 PM »
You say it could be done through delegates? You mean using delegates as smart oracles?

https://github.com/codius/codius/wiki/Smart-Oracles:-A-Simple,-Powerful-Approach-to-Smart-Contracts

That is an idea which could work if the delegates are trusted enough to do it (such as if the delegate is some sort of company).

Contracts are just scripts. I don't see why they would have to be stored on chain most of the time. For example on the client I might want to be able to program it so that when a certain alert is triggered that it initiates a sell, or a buy, or basic kinds of scripts like that. I might want for example to have dividend reinvestment automated as a smart contract for example. A delegate using smart contracts would mean we could examine the smart contract and not have to trust them as much to do what they say they'll do with the profits.

So the idea that delegates can act as smart oracles might be a very good direction to take it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:58:19 PM by luckybit »
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 03:59:27 PM »
Yes, but I know from experience because I wrote entire frontend/backend software for a hedge fund as the sole engineer in the project. Just scripting will not be enough, you then need to take care of charting etc/etc/etc.

This is in fact an area that I was hoping I could break into if I3 doesn't even interview me. I've asked a few times to come strengthen the team, but they must be too busy.

Ideally instead of reinventing the wheel, what you want is to adapt already existing trading languages and even hook entire platforms like MQL from MetaTrader, EasyLanguage from TradeStation. Implementing these two would bring a ridiculous amount of traders to the platform.

Offline luckybit

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 04:12:31 PM »
Yes, but I know from experience because I wrote entire frontend/backend software for a hedge fund as the sole engineer in the project. Just scripting will not be enough, you then need to take care of charting etc/etc/etc.

This is in fact an area that I was hoping I could break into if I3 doesn't even interview me. I've asked a few times to come strengthen the team, but they must be too busy.

Ideally instead of reinventing the wheel, what you want is to adapt already existing trading languages and even hook entire platforms like MQL from MetaTrader, EasyLanguage from TradeStation. Implementing these two would bring a ridiculous amount of traders to the platform.

Very interesting possibilities. This is definitely something a delegate can provide as it would have great utility and if there are smart oracles too then any kind of contracts could be done off chain.
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Offline Pheonike

Re: Future DACs on the BTSX rewards proposal
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 04:12:45 PM »
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