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Offline Brent.Allsop

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Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« on: August 01, 2014, 04:13:07 AM »

Bitshareites,

We've started a design specification and brainstorming Google doc for a Canon Coin DAC.  (for more info about this 'smart' currency see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/150/6)  As you can see, the two main requirements for this "smart currency" are listed, so any ideas of how best to implement these, and any other ideas are encouraged.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11_SUjoA1e5Bgf9cHFg0Qmcxmdm8fO9Hff0Ggx_-J798/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has any comments, ideas (pro or con) on anything being presented, how best to implement things, and so on, it would be much appreciated.  We are particularly interested in knowing if there are any things that would make anyone not interested in such a currency, or visa verse.

Is there enough of a system up and running to get something like this started, and what are the next steps / methods we can get started on?

We are also interested in co-operating with any other DACS.  Might anyone be interested in utilizing these kinds of 'smart' amplification of the wisdom of the crowd process to make decisions to be used to control any other DACS?

And is there anyone out there interested in contributing to the development of such a project.  (Note, you will earn Canon Coins, or we can work out any other kind of compensation, if you wish.)



Brent Allsop

Offline tonyk

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 06:52:39 AM »

Where can I find out more on the topic of – ‘How Canonizer  is better at determining the consensus?’
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 02:27:13 PM »

There is a paper by James Carroll entitled:

    Amplifying the Wisdom of the Crowd,
    Building and Measuring for Expert and Moral Consensus

available on the front page of http://Canonizer.com


Offline tonyk

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2014, 04:34:25 PM »
Yes,  but I would like to read about what are those  -canonization algorithm(s) that can achieve such a 'magic'  consensus.


Supporters of camps can object to any proposed changes they don't agree with, filtering can then be done by the reader who can select the kind of experts and canonization algorithm they choose to prioritize things. In this way, knowing concisely and quantitatively what everyone currently believes, how the expert opinion still differs from the popular opinion, can eliminate all these communication prevention issues and fears

Or is it 'can eliminate' but not necessarily 'does eliminate'?
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 02:13:57 AM »
Hi tonyk,

Thanks for asking.  You are right about that but you are still missing something that most everyone seems to miss.  On example I like to illustrate this with is the sex education survey topic.  (see: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/69)

Whenever any government asks for public input on this topic, everyone shows up and divides into liberals on one side and conservatives on the other.  It often seems like they are almost gnashing their teeth at each other, and will never agree on anything.  Government officials are always afraid to speak or do anything, fearing no matter what they say or do, the other side will crucify them.  This is precisely the problem that is deadlocking congress today.

But when you bring this into Canonizer.com, what should be obvious, and what everyone is missing, finally does become obvious, is easily recognized and this quickly rises to the top so it can be focused on.  That most important doctrine is: "Education is important" which everyone agrees on.  It is just that one side is OK with education being done in public school, while the other camp simply prefers to have it done in a family or more private setting.  Everyone getting so involved in far less important issues like this blinds everyone to the obvious most important issue that always ends up being a lost casualty of the war that results.

The ability to push lesser issues to a sub camp, where it can still be valued and tracked, enables the focus and consensus to finally return to the most important actionable unanimous consensus issue which can stay in the top level supper camp.  It is techniques like pushing lesser important issues to sub camps that enables the most important consensus items to build consensus around them in a way that values and bridles diversity of opinion to drive the consensus forward, not tear things apart.  Where disagreement remains, often far less than everyone normally realizes, you can find creative ways to get everyone all they want, take turns, focus on finding out what kind of scientific proof would falsify competing camps for its supports, and focus on demonstrating that, or whatever, so it can drive things forward instead of ripping things apart.

The purpose of the different selectable Canonizer algorithms is a bit different than this kind of consensus building.  When you are measuring for expert consensus, in a way that enables the comparison of this to the popular consensus, and so on, everyone asks "Who are the experts?"  So, we give everyone the ability to select whatever Canonizer algorithm they want, which is basically giving the people the ability to specify who the experts they trust are, then canonize and finally for the first time communicate accordingly.

These are a few examples of the consensus building and communicating techniques we are developing at Canonizer.com and we welcome any other helpful ideas from anyone.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 02:33:10 AM by Brent.Allsop »

Offline tonyk

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 02:25:32 AM »
And who are the ‘experts’ in the pro-life/pro-choice debate?

Seems like everybody will claim everybody in his camp as an expert.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 02:27:59 AM by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 02:45:16 AM »
Hi Tony,  What a great side kick, asking just the right questions.

Yes, one person's experts are another's hedonistic devil worshipers.  The conservatives could create a canonizer algorithm which filters for anyone not in their preferred camp, or whatever they would most trust.  And, once the leading experts know such things, concisely and quantitatively, they can focus on who the experts for the other side are, and point out things like your trusted experts agree: "Education is important"  So the conservatives finally admit - "Oh yea, you are right.  OK, let's do whatever is required so everyone can get educated and we can get everyone all that they want."
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 02:49:27 AM by Brent.Allsop »

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 02:56:35 AM »
pro life/pro-choice is a bit more stark of a difference, so you could focus on asking what scientific evidence would prove or falsify for the supporters of a competing camp, the different theoretical assumptions being made by that camp.  Then do things like take turns, getting the most people what they want, even if that means the most people are mistaken, then when the scientific proof finally comes along, and converts everyone to the one true camp.  Then the 'sinners' who were wrong will be expected to make a restitution and work towards cleaning up whatever mess was made because of them being wrong.  And if you are creative enough, this is just one of an infinitely many possible solutions that enables things to move forward.

Instead of working on censoring and destroying what others still believe, you find out how to work from within their frame of reference, within their selected experts, and find creative ways to work with that to get more of what everyone wants.


« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 03:12:12 AM by Brent.Allsop »

Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 12:03:42 PM »
This project is so unbelievably cool Brent!   +5% +5%

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 07:33:51 PM »
This project is so unbelievably cool Brent!   +5% +5%

Thanks Ben.

Now if more people were interested in working on this (even if you need to be paid), things could go faster.


Offline fuzzy

Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2014, 06:11:59 AM »
Gotta bump this.  +5%
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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2014, 09:26:00 AM »
So .. comparing this to (the concept of) Truthcoin we have the ability to choose the experts (the selection algorithm) while Truthcoin has the SVD method?

Am I correct? Because basically they are both doing the same thing. Not solving the problem to an 'hard' output (this is correct or that is correct) but towards a consensus in a way that ...

Truthcoin:... a percentage agrees and the rest disagrees
Canonizer: ... strip things appart and find most consesus on parts of the problem (and move the others to new subproblems)

Ok. .. writing out this post I realized that these two are doing completly different things ... I'll post it anyway and give others to correct me if I am wrong
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2014, 11:30:30 AM »
Ok. .. writing out this post I realized that these two are doing completly different things ... I'll post it anyway and give others to correct me if I am wrong

Thank you. This helped me better understand the process.

I've seen a political paper that suggests a similar thought. Mainly that most people agree on the fundamental issues however the media makes their money on the few implementation details that people disagree on so that's mostly all we hear about and the two sides appear more divided they actually are.

Offline Brent.Allsop

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Re: Design and method of implementing a Canon Coin DAC
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 02:20:25 PM »
Thank you. This helped me better understand the process.

I've seen a political paper that suggests a similar thought. Mainly that most people agree on the fundamental issues however the media makes their money on the few implementation details that people disagree on so that's mostly all we hear about and the two sides appear more divided they actually are.

Could you provide a reference to this paper?  I'm very interested in such stuff, and the producers of such.

It's also much more than just the media focusing on conflict, people, everyone, in peer reviewed journals, just tend to focus on the disagreements, all the expert consensus knowledge tends to get ignored, for all the infinite yes/no/yes/no rhetoric.



Offline Riverhead

« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 06:54:58 PM by Riverhead »

 

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