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Offline HackFisher

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My understanding is that, BitShares Play is only part of the decentralized game assets ecosystem, It is not enough to achieve the goal only with a DAC.

To have the agents and merchants interested and join, we need to have a lot of games in our platform, in the same time, game providers have interested in BitShares Play game platform, because:

1. BitShares Play provide a good economic chips system to protect the user's game chips(assets) from being dilute. Because in BitShares Play, the platform must find way to guarantee that the new created chips must be created by providing play shares as collaterals, or according the mechanism as a game contract hardcoded in BitShares Play. It seems that games in BitShares Play should not be given the ability to issue chips as they want (As Benevolent Entity). Though I want to provide games with the flexibility, but maybe it should not be considered if it hurt the users' chips assets and thus the ecosystem.

There might be challenges for us to find ways to keep the assets rule in BitShares Play, but hopefully we will find ways, at least for a subset of the game kinds.

2. Another reason game providers would have interest in BitShares Play, is that we have agents and users base here. From another aspect, this system have agents because of the games already being there in some sense too. So the question is chicken and eggs, which will come out first?
The answer for this is that BitShares Play will first have chance games like Dice and Lottery being part of the DAC as a start for games. This will make BitShares Play looks like a gaming DAC at first glance, but with things growing, it's final goal is to be a game asset Platform, and those built-in games will retrograde just as third-party games.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 09:46:11 PM by HackFisher »
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Offline GaltReport

Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 01:01:40 AM »
This is good product positioning.  Game Platform.  Great Idea.

Offline Overthetop

Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 08:34:31 AM »
Yes, we need some popular games to kick off ASAP.

How about find some partners who have successful games already and convert their games into DPOS model?



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Offline bennyliaa

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Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 03:00:02 PM »
If I am the game provider, I think that you provide the clients from all over the world to me is a fantastic thing. So I not only can earn the money from my motherlands, but all countries. Keep moving and hit the goal.
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2014, 04:07:17 PM »
Yes, we need some popular games to kick off ASAP.

How about find some partners who have successful games already and convert their games into DPOS model?

Yes, that's what we want to achieve, game developers/providers who have interest to have their game assets in BitShares Play and have ideas to integrate to BitShares Play please pm me. We could consider preallocate some shares to use as the initial collateral for your games assets(chips).

About the integration with 3rd games, we will probably use delegates as smart oracle to do that. Please refer "Section 5.0 The Path to A Game Platform and Ecosystem" in white paper:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KkaAnuM0a_YU2yMaeDSDiyNUv96c9TrYrCjKadC01yA/edit

The proof of concept is in still early stage and under fast re-form, we will start with built-in games to have our early users, but eventually we will get there.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 04:09:10 PM by HackFisher »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bitsapphire

Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 05:18:08 PM »
Yes, we need some popular games to kick off ASAP.

How about find some partners who have successful games already and convert their games into DPOS model?

Yes, that's what we want to achieve, game developers/providers who have interest to have their game assets in BitShares Play and have ideas to integrate to BitShares Play please pm me. We could consider preallocate some shares to use as the initial collateral for your games assets(chips).

About the integration with 3rd games, we will probably use delegates as smart oracle to do that. Please refer "Section 5.0 The Path to A Game Platform and Ecosystem" in white paper:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KkaAnuM0a_YU2yMaeDSDiyNUv96c9TrYrCjKadC01yA/edit

The proof of concept is in still early stage and under fast re-form, we will start with built-in games to have our early users, but eventually we will get there.

Serious question, how do you plan to work with game developers? The big MMOs have game economists actively working on the game macroeconomics. Most of these games would not want to have limited tokens as a currency.

On the other hand, this might be perfect for games which want to trade limited items, such as swords, armor, or pokemon which only exist in a certain amount in the world.
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 09:38:34 PM »
Yes, we need some popular games to kick off ASAP.

How about find some partners who have successful games already and convert their games into DPOS model?

Yes, that's what we want to achieve, game developers/providers who have interest to have their game assets in BitShares Play and have ideas to integrate to BitShares Play please pm me. We could consider preallocate some shares to use as the initial collateral for your games assets(chips).

About the integration with 3rd games, we will probably use delegates as smart oracle to do that. Please refer "Section 5.0 The Path to A Game Platform and Ecosystem" in white paper:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KkaAnuM0a_YU2yMaeDSDiyNUv96c9TrYrCjKadC01yA/edit

The proof of concept is in still early stage and under fast re-form, we will start with built-in games to have our early users, but eventually we will get there.

Serious question, how do you plan to work with game developers? The big MMOs have game economists actively working on the game macroeconomics. Most of these games would not want to have limited tokens as a currency.

On the other hand, this might be perfect for games which want to trade limited items, such as swords, armor, or pokemon which only exist in a certain amount in the world.

Basically, the game developer will treat BitShares Play as a service, integrate it through JSON APIs with the help of delegates(as smart oracles).

The maximum total supply of play shares should be limited, but that do not apply to the game assets, the games assets can grow or drop with flexibility as long as they follow the inner exchange model (having related amount of shares as the collateral). Different games can share and using the same game asset since they are decentralized issued, and one games can also using several game assets at the same time.

Thanks for your suggestions, but can you talk more about why games like MMO would not want to have limited token as currency?

Actually, I think potential games may tend to do that, because this will increase the economic experience in games significantly, and the centralized benevolent entity economic model will basically harm their system in some sense. Even though they get the power inside game, but will lose the competition advantage to others.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 09:44:44 PM by HackFisher »
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 09:48:24 PM »
Quote
BitShares Play provide a good economic chips system to protect the user's game chips(assets) from being dilute.

This means that each new created chip must be backed by collateral, can not dilute without any cost. No Dilution does not equal to fixed supply.
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Offline bitsapphire

Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 05:10:12 PM »
Basically, the game developer will treat BitShares Play as a service, integrate it through JSON APIs with the help of delegates(as smart oracles).

Could you further explain to what extend the delegates fulfill the role of smart oracles? Sounds very interesting.

The maximum total supply of play shares should be limited, but that do not apply to the game assets, the games assets can grow or drop with flexibility as long as they follow the inner exchange model (having related amount of shares as the collateral). Different games can share and using the same game asset since they are decentralized issued, and one games can also using several game assets at the same time.

Do you mean different games will have different bitAssets and all bitAssets are traded with one another just like bitAssets are traded on BTSX?

If so, what would the game-specific bitAssets be? Why would there be different bitAssets between games? Sound like everybody would gravitate towards using bitUSD again.

Thanks for your suggestions, but can you talk more about why games like MMO would not want to have limited token as currency?

It all comes down to the Inside Money / Outside Money dichotomy. I still haven't seen anybody explain bitAssets in the light of this important distinction. The above linked document is a good read.

In essence,  limited tokens are outside money by definition, they can never be inside money. As a result they are also always commodity money. Commodity money can never be stable in value in and of itself, it will fluctuate considerably as history has shown.

BitAssets are a new beast of money (if they end up working properly). BitAssets are not inside money, as a bitAsset is not the credit of one economic actor and debit of somebody else (i.e. zero net supply).
Nor are bitAssets real outside money as they (should) track the relative value of another asset, be that asset a commodity or inside money itself (as is the case with bitUSD/EUR, etc). However,  bitAssets behave like outside money in as far as they are not zero net supply in the economy. This is also why I am not sure whether bitAssets will ever truly track the relative value of the assets they represent, as they have different use-values compared to their real counterpartys (e.g. you can send bitUSD anywhere in the world, anonymously, at no risk of confiscation, however without FDIC).

The closest analogy I can find for bitAssets is USD credit extended by shadow banks, as they often work almost exactly the same way BTSX works. These shadow banks swap futures and secondary swap agreements for credit and for real claims on assets with one another to create the non FDIC backed USD. I think what BM really created with BTSX is a distributed shadow banking system for every man (with all its potential downsides and upsides).

All this said, as MMO money is no inside money, it is always outside money (i.e. commodity money). This is why "economists" need to be hired for these massive games to steer the economy, they need to "print" and "destroy" commodity money at will in order to stabilize the internal MMO markets and prices of items. A game with limited tokens tradable outside the game would experience even more severe price spikes and falls than Bitcoin, effectively heavily undermining the overall user experience.

Actually, I think potential games may tend to do that, because this will increase the economic experience in games significantly, and the centralized benevolent entity economic model will basically harm their system in some sense. Even though they get the power inside game, but will lose the competition advantage to others.

As explained in my last paragraph above, the he centralized benevolent entity economic model is what keeps the economies of these MMOs alive in the first place.

All that said, MMOs might want to integrate bitUSD/EUR, etc into theyr games as currencies, and they might be open to limiting certain special items and making them tradable (think some awesome sword existing only 100 times in WOW).
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 06:57:32 PM »
Chips(Game assets, but this could be ambiguity here) are different from BitAsset that it is not pegging currency/commodities. It is used by games providers as exchange and profit model purpose, and being part of the contract with the BitShares Play, the value of one chips is alway pegging to the initial price game provided and changing with supply in contract.

My conclusion is that swords in MMOs are more like commodities, and Chips is not suit for them since most of commodities are required to fix amount or fit in the game economic model rather than the PLAY inner exchange model. But I think user issued assets are good enough form game providers to use in this purpose.

Reading the inside money and outside money paper you provided, can not give more comments before I understand them.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 07:18:12 PM by HackFisher »
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Offline HackFisher

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Re: Open disscussion: Why game providers will interested in BitShares Play?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2014, 07:07:35 PM »
And it would be interesting to see whether the economic model of user issued assets can be hardcoded as contract in Bitshares Play, which could meet to the requirement for MMO swords. This contract are written by the asset issuer like economist from game provider.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 07:09:56 PM by HackFisher »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

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