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Offline BitSharesSocial

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We've been a hot topic of conversation. Mostly positive, but some still aren't quite sure what to make of us - if you're also on Twitter, maybe you could help them understand better and weigh in on this conversation started by @BryceWeiner:

https://storify.com/_bitshares/conversation-with-bryceweiner-pierebel-andydenton-1

Offline toast

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2014, 08:04:09 PM »
"If Daniel can simply answer: "If no miners, then what backs the network?""

LOL
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Offline speedy

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Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2014, 08:12:09 PM »
Why are we giving this weener so much attention?

Offline BitSharesSocial

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Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2014, 10:55:22 PM »
Why are we giving this weener so much attention?

That's true, Weiner is being a weener.

Offline luckybit

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2014, 11:55:27 PM »
Why are we giving this weener so much attention?
He's very important because what he is working on integrates and can be symbiotic to what we are working on.

I think we should take this seriously.

I think we should continue trying to build ties with him and his team. Education is the answer not ridicule.

Here is what he is working on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFWV-mfMdw8

If he thinks of us as a threat then defuse the competitive tone.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 11:57:58 PM by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 12:03:05 AM »
"If Daniel can simply answer: "If no miners, then what backs the network?""

LOL

How about we answer the question?

The network has delegates which function as the miners who process transactions. As far as what backs the network (the value), tell them about the concept of virtual mining. Virtual mining can be used to "back" proof of stake by computational resources. Value can be input into the ecosystem through virtual mining (computational resources).

If they still don't get it then we'll have to show them how it's done.
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Offline toast

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 12:06:06 AM »
virtual mining and normal mining both equally do not back the tokens and only hurt the value... in both cases they are a network expense. In the case of virtual mining that expense is just paid by other coins
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Offline luckybit

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 12:08:36 AM »
virtual mining and normal mining both equally do not back the tokens and only hurt the value... in both cases they are a network expense. In the case of virtual mining that expense is just paid by other coins
Here is where we disagree. If the price of the token rises as a result of virtual mining then it's pumping value into the network. Computation resources are a form of wealth and thus if they are spent in the right way they create value. Additionally with virtual mining we can mine storage, bandwidth, or anything so we are not limited to computation if you think it's wasteful.

I do think some forms of computation are more beneficial than others but that is a different debate. Protein folding for instance is clearly of value to society yet we could mine with it and use it as an on-ramp into Bitshares so why not?

Ultimately value comes from the opinions of other people. Proof of Work in it's current form is wasteful but it's valuable because in people's minds they give it value. The same reason protein folding is valuable.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 12:11:33 AM by luckybit »
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Offline toast

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 12:11:23 AM »
no, you literally have it 100% backwards. The only reason virtual mining works is because it effectively steals from other coins' stakeholders. Rather than having them waste money, you help them waste money and make a cut because they threw away more money than the cost of the electricity. So yes, value flows in - it is NOT from burning electricity!
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Offline luckybit

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 12:14:39 AM »
no, you literally have it 100% backwards. The only reason virtual mining works is because it effectively steals from other coins' stakeholders. Rather than having them waste money, you help them waste money and make a cut because they threw away more money than the cost of the electricity. So yes, value flows in - it is NOT from burning electricity!

Money and wealth aren't the same. Money is wasted on electricity (correct!). Wealth is the computation resources themselves. The reason money is wasted or not depends on how the computation resources are being used and the value of the output of that computation.

So hashing junk just to create a Bitcoin doesn't create any real value from the computation itself. The value comes from the utility of the Bitcoin which is the end result. Virtual mining isn't restricted to any hashing algorithm so you can cure cancer for example and if society deems that valuable then it can be used as mining in a virtual mining setup. Then you have the storage, bandwidth, and other computing resources which can all be mined virtually.

I thnk people are sitting on a lot of wealth in terms of harddrive space and that could be used as an on-ramp into Bitshares. So why not?
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Offline toast

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 12:26:19 AM »
Quote
Money and wealth aren't the same. Money is wasted on electricity (correct!). Wealth is the computation resources themselves. The reason money is wasted or not depends on how the computation resources are being used and the value of the output of that computation. The value comes from the utility of the Bitcoin which is the end result.

Still backwards. Bitcoin has value *in spite of* it's mining. Hashing does not contribute value for Bitcoin. The only reason you think it is the other way is because you see "computing power consumed -> bitcoin is possible -> wealth is created". But actually "bitcoin is possible" -> someone makes +$10 from using bitcoin over another option, and "hashing" -> someone paid for and did nothing useful with $3 worth of electricity.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline luckybit

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 12:29:56 AM »
Quote
Money and wealth aren't the same. Money is wasted on electricity (correct!). Wealth is the computation resources themselves. The reason money is wasted or not depends on how the computation resources are being used and the value of the output of that computation. The value comes from the utility of the Bitcoin which is the end result.

Still backwards. Bitcoin has value *in spite of* it's mining. Hashing does not contribute value for Bitcoin. The only reason you think it is the other way is because you see "computing power consumed -> bitcoin is possible -> wealth is created". But actually "bitcoin is possible" -> someone makes +$10 from using bitcoin over another option, and "hashing" -> someone paid for and did nothing useful with $3 worth of electricity.

On Bitcoin I agree with you. Where I disagree with you is that I think there can be socially beneficial forms of mining. Bitcoin just isn't one of those beneficial forms.

In any case the people who intended to mine Bitcoin/Litecoin spent millions of dollars on computing resources. They need an exit. So what can happen is their electricity bill can buy their Bitshares. In other cases though such as with Storj integration I think it could be beneficial to mine that because Storj is a DAC itself which Bitshares could later take advantage of.

So hypothetically I would like to mine Storjcoins but receive payout in BitUSD. I think that is easily possible and mutually beneficial for both DACs. In that example I'd be selling my storage space for BitUSD using the Storj Driveminer.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 12:32:49 AM by luckybit »
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Offline toast

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 12:32:42 AM »
Exactly - so the conclusion is that bitcoin is not backed by mining. Mining does not generate demand for bitcoin.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline arhag

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Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 07:02:56 AM »
Here is where we disagree. If the price of the token rises as a result of virtual mining then it's pumping value into the network. Computation resources are a form of wealth and thus if they are spent in the right way they create value. Additionally with virtual mining we can mine storage, bandwidth, or anything so we are not limited to computation if you think it's wasteful.

I do think some forms of computation are more beneficial than others but that is a different debate. Protein folding for instance is clearly of value to society yet we could mine with it and use it as an on-ramp into Bitshares so why not?

Ultimately value comes from the opinions of other people. Proof of Work in it's current form is wasteful but it's valuable because in people's minds they give it value. The same reason protein folding is valuable.

It seems like you and toast are talking past each other. Toast is trying to explain how mining does not provide any value for the services a DPOS DAC provides. You are (I think) trying to say that computational resources can be used to generate valuable services or public goods (I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but it isn't really relevant to DPOS).

Perhaps an analogy can help. Virtual (hash-based) mining in DPOS is like paying people to dig holes and fill them back up again. Sure, the diggers might support the system that made this initiative possible since they are getting paid a salary, but it is not providing any value to the world. If people really wanted to get the diggers to support the system (for some reason) it would be more efficient to just give them a fraction of the money without requiring them to do useless work for it (essentially bribing them to support the system).  Now it is true that you can do protein folding with your computational power, which is a public good for society, instead of hashing; that would be like paying the workers to build a useful bridge instead. But I don't think it is fair to call protein folding mining. That is just paying people to provide a service, namely using their computers to solve a useful computational problem. Their computational work has no effect on securing the blockchain.

In any case the people who intended to mine Bitcoin/Litecoin spent millions of dollars on computing resources. They need an exit. So what can happen is their electricity bill can buy their Bitshares. In other cases though such as with Storj integration I think it could be beneficial to mine that because Storj is a DAC itself which Bitshares could later take advantage of.

If Bitcoin miners spent their money on ASICs, then I am sorry for them but that was a misallocation of resources (assuming the world adopts DPOS over POW). The hashing ASICs are not going to be capable of solving useful computational problems like protein folding. If the equipment they invested their capital in are general purpose computers, then at least they can make use of those computers for a variety of useful services, such as protein folding, file storage, etc.

So hypothetically I would like to mine Storjcoins but receive payout in BitUSD. I think that is easily possible and mutually beneficial for both DACs. In that example I'd be selling my storage space for BitUSD using the Storj Driveminer.

Why would you need to "mine" to provide a file hosting service? I don't know about the specifics of how Storj works, but there is no reason it could not work with DPOS and use BitUSD to pay the people who are actually providing the file storage service. Even if you really wanted to use Storj as it is currently designed, nothing prevents you from mining on it to get Storjcoins and then trading them for BitUSD on the open market.


Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Re: These guys need a little guidance - let them know what you think.
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 06:26:47 PM »
We've been a hot topic of conversation. Mostly positive, but some still aren't quite sure what to make of us - if you're also on Twitter, maybe you could help them understand better and weigh in on this conversation started by @BryceWeiner:

https://storify.com/_bitshares/conversation-with-bryceweiner-pierebel-andydenton-1


Trolling educating him on Twitter now.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 06:53:34 PM by G1ng3rBr34dM4n »

 

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