Was TITAN a bad idea (terribly timed feature)?

[eagleeye]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

Note... I found his 50K.  It is not lost due to TITAN.

Admin Bytemaster, I have 34 developments points, do you want me to send them to you, post them on this forum (trying to be formless against our competitors), or (do you want me to stop talking)?

[bytemaster]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

Note... I found his 50K.  It is not lost due to TITAN.

[xeroc]

TITAN provides nothing that cannot be done with Bitcoin, it simply automates it and makes it easier to keep your backups up to date. 

If you backup immediately after creating your wallet, you will never lose any funds with TITAN.  You may lose transaction history details like who you sent your funds to and what the memo was, but you will not lose funds.

For those that lost funds: Please checkout this article I just put online:
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/RecoveringFunds

[Xeldal]

Can the development team contact me and tell me.

How long does it take, what are the particulars of the development?  I am here if the team needs me.

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/TITAN
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Main_Page
https://github.com/BitShares

[bitmeat]

Well I have 50K BTSX missing in a margin call, send to UNKNOWN. Unless I misunderstood how it works. I put 75K BTSX as margin, and my understanding was that only 33% of that is really exposed, unless liquidity totally sucked.

Margin calls are not TITAN so it seems like you would be blaming the wrong thing here.  Can you post the output of wallet_account_transaction_history (or PM it to me)?

Report sent. It just seems funky. Of 75K short, exactly 50K was "sent to UNKNOWN". that's 2/3 is that what is taken when margin call hits?

[eagleeye]

My answer is unequivocally YES.

I know BM's No.

But what is yours?

If I have 100000 BTC.
I send 0.01 BTC to some guy around my street to buy several pizza.

He can see my 100000 BTC in the blockchain,know that I'm rich.

And some day, he lost he job,have a sick kid, sick wife,mouths to feed .

He can easily kidnap me and ask for my 100000 BTC.

So,do you understand why we need TITAN ?

We need TITAN from what you are saying tbkmcjl. 

Can the development team contact me and tell me.

How long does it take, what are the particulars of the development?  I am here if the team needs me.

[bytemaster]

TITAN provides nothing that cannot be done with Bitcoin, it simply automates it and makes it easier to keep your backups up to date. 

If you backup immediately after creating your wallet, you will never lose any funds with TITAN.  You may lose transaction history details like who you sent your funds to and what the memo was, but you will not lose funds.

Well I have 50K BTSX missing in a margin call, send to UNKNOWN. Unless I misunderstood how it works. I put 75K BTSX as margin, and my understanding was that only 33% of that is really exposed, unless liquidity totally sucked.

Margin calls are not TITAN so it seems like you would be blaming the wrong thing here.  Can you post the output of wallet_account_transaction_history (or PM it to me)?

[bitmeat]

TITAN provides nothing that cannot be done with Bitcoin, it simply automates it and makes it easier to keep your backups up to date. 

If you backup immediately after creating your wallet, you will never lose any funds with TITAN.  You may lose transaction history details like who you sent your funds to and what the memo was, but you will not lose funds.

Well I have 50K BTSX missing in a margin call, send to UNKNOWN. Unless I misunderstood how it works. I put 75K BTSX as margin, and my understanding was that only 33% of that is really exposed, unless liquidity totally sucked.

[bytemaster]

TITAN provides nothing that cannot be done with Bitcoin, it simply automates it and makes it easier to keep your backups up to date. 

If you backup immediately after creating your wallet, you will never lose any funds with TITAN.  You may lose transaction history details like who you sent your funds to and what the memo was, but you will not lose funds.

[Ggozzo]

How have you guys lost BTSX? Seriously. I am curious. Every account I created, I backed up in multiple ways. I want to know how to avoid that.

[GaltReport]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

You have not lost them... I have 40 to 75K BTSX floating around the blockchain myself, my point is difference thou - BM is spending unnecessary time fixing a 'problem' he had no reason (no benefit) in creating in the first place.

Assume 3 letter agencies already track you. You think they this forum?

This is correct.  i spent years managing 24x7 chat/video streaming channel and spent lots of time dealing with people that were clearly intelligence gathers and provocateurs in addition to the run of the mill trolls and crazies. 

Assume monitoring and trust...yourself.
 

So wait...is it safe to say that these types of people might be, here?  In crypto-land?  Do you think any of them might want to use it as a tool of control? 

Would the NSA have a reason to attempt to coop this tech?  and more importantly...would they?

I'm sure we are safe...and shouldn't ever consider that a possibility...   

Right, it's out of the question. 

[fuzzy]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

You have not lost them... I have 40 to 75K BTSX floating around the blockchain myself, my point is difference thou - BM is spending unnecessary time fixing a 'problem' he had no reason (no benefit) in creating in the first place.

Assume 3 letter agencies already track you. You think they this forum?

This is correct.  i spent years managing 24x7 chat/video streaming channel and spent lots of time dealing with people that were clearly intelligence gathers and provocateurs in addition to the run of the mill trolls and crazies. 

Assume monitoring and trust...yourself.
 

So wait...is it safe to say that these types of people might be, here?  In crypto-land?  Do you think any of them might want to use it as a tool of control? 

Would the NSA have a reason to attempt to coop this tech?  and more importantly...would they?

I'm sure we are safe...and shouldn't ever consider that a possibility...   

[bitder]

I think we should also support transfers to an address.
I see account registration/bootstrapping as an obstacle to btsx adoption and capital inflows into the ecosystem.
(someone who buys btsx on an exchange will now have to register on this forum, potentially giving up some private info in the process, and then ask for funds to register an account)

[GaltReport]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

You have not lost them... I have 40 to 75K BTSX floating around the blockchain myself, my point is difference thou - BM is spending unnecessary time fixing a 'problem' he had no reason (no benefit) in creating in the first place.

Assume 3 letter agencies already track you. You think they this forum?

This is correct. i spent years managing 24x7 chat/video streaming channel and spent lots of time dealing with people that were clearly intelligence gathers and provocateurs in addition to the run of the mill hackers, trolls and crazies. 

Assume monitoring and trust...yourself.
 

[bluebit]

How do you lose BTSX with Titan?

[James212]

TITAN is great...
But it would be awesome if somebody could choose some accounts to work without it somehow with a button for example right to the account...
So the user could choose which account are "hidden" and which not ...

2 in 1...

Sorry but I think that is terrible idea.  You can imagine that in the future government could force payment gateways to only deal with BTSX account which are not using TITAN.

If you take away the ability for people to choose, they will just move up a layer, and refuse to use that entire type of crypto currency which uses anything like Titan.


It will always come back to hurt you when you do anything to destroy something someone else wants.  It will always come back by someone else trying to destroy what you want, one way or another.  The only way is to find out what everyone wants, and find creative ways to get all of it for everyone.  Only then, will it not come back to byte you, by someone else trying to destroy what you want.

Hi Brent.Allsop,

I think it will be very hard to get all of it for everyone.
With BTSX, will be either privacy for everyone or transparency for everyone. Just look at BTC, it is nearly impossible to get more privacy in the code now. In the perfect world I agree we could have a choice, but this is the world  where governments would use this option to force everybody to be transparent so they would know everything about everybody.
We have example of this already with so called tainted bitcoins. I am personally for 100% privacy for private individuals and 100% transparency for the governments and all public bodies. Governments spend our money therefore need for transparency, but not for us as we do not spend others people money. Maybe one day we will have fork of BTSX without TITAN if there is enough demand for it. For me I say more TITAN and more privacy for individuals.

Respectfully
aloha 

 

[vegolino]

TITAN is great...
But it would be awesome if somebody could choose some accounts to work without it somehow with a button for example right to the account...
So the user could choose which account are "hidden" and which not ...

2 in 1...

Sorry but I think that is terrible idea.  You can imagine that in the future government could force payment gateways to only deal with BTSX account which are not using TITAN.

If you take away the ability for people to choose, they will just move up a layer, and refuse to use that entire type of crypto currency which uses anything like Titan.


It will always come back to hurt you when you do anything to destroy something someone else wants.  It will always come back by someone else trying to destroy what you want, one way or another.  The only way is to find out what everyone wants, and find creative ways to get all of it for everyone.  Only then, will it not come back to byte you, by someone else trying to destroy what you want.

Hi Brent.Allsop,

I think it will be very hard to get all of it for everyone.
With BTSX, will be either privacy for everyone or transparency for everyone. Just look at BTC, it is nearly impossible to get more privacy in the code now. In the perfect world I agree we could have a choice, but this is the world  where governments would use this option to force everybody to be transparent so they would know everything about everybody.
We have example of this already with so called tainted bitcoins. I am personally for 100% privacy for private individuals and 100% transparency for the governments and all public bodies. Governments spend our money therefore need for transparency, but not for us as we do not spend others people money. Maybe one day we will have fork of BTSX without TITAN if there is enough demand for it. For me I say more TITAN and more privacy for individuals.

Respectfully
aloha 

[fuzzy]

TITAN as it is implemented right now is mostly ease of use...

The only way I know of funds being lost with TITAN is by sending to the wrong name and I have lost BTC the same way (having someone send to the wrong address).

Future versions will eliminate the need for everyone to scan everything.

Future versions will have enhanced privacy multi-part transfers.

Oh seriously bm, can you stop adding to the value proposition for our investment?  It is making us enemies >.<

[bytemaster]

TITAN as it is implemented right now is mostly ease of use...

The only way I know of funds being lost with TITAN is by sending to the wrong name and I have lost BTC the same way (having someone send to the wrong address).

Future versions will eliminate the need for everyone to scan everything.

Future versions will have enhanced privacy multi-part transfers.

[sumantso]

How did you all lose BTSX?

I haven't opened the wallet at all since 0.4.7a so would like to know if it is a wallet problem before upgrading.

Regarding TITAN, I think there should be an easy way to 'sign' an account so that anyone else can verify the balance if needed.

[Brent.Allsop]

TITAN is great...
But it would be awesome if somebody could choose some accounts to work without it somehow with a button for example right to the account...
So the user could choose which account are "hidden" and which not ...

2 in 1...

Sorry but I think that is terrible idea.  You can imagine that in the future government could force payment gateways to only deal with BTSX account which are not using TITAN.

If you take away the ability for people to choose, they will just move up a layer, and refuse to use that entire type of crypto currency which uses anything like Titan.


It will always come back to hurt you when you do anything to destroy something someone else wants.  It will always come back by someone else trying to destroy what you want, one way or another.  The only way is to find out what everyone wants, and find creative ways to get all of it for everyone.  Only then, will it not come back to byte you, by someone else trying to destroy what you want.

[Brent.Allsop]

TITAN is great...
But it would be awesome if somebody could choose some accounts to work without it somehow with a button for example right to the account...
So the user could choose which account are "hidden" and which not ...

2 in 1...

 

[James212]

i think TITAN is a good idea

 

[Gentso1]

If anything TITAN needs to be stronger. It isn't very anonymous if it can be defeated by a growing number of people that have the know how to do a block chain analyses. 

[vegolino]

TITAN is great...
But it would be awesome if somebody could choose some accounts to work without it somehow with a button for example right to the account...
So the user could choose which account are "hidden" and which not ...

2 in 1...

Sorry but I think that is terrible idea.  You can imagine that in the future government could force payment gateways to only deal with BTSX account which are not using TITAN.

[liondani]

TITAN is great...
But it would be awesome if somebody could choose some accounts to work without it somehow with a button for example right to the account...
So the user could choose which account are "hidden" and which not ...

2 in 1...

[stuartcharles]

i think TITAN is a good idea

Yes, it is.
Just a badly timed one.

It would have been badly timed to release it later when we are out of beta. The current crypto client base of libertarians, coders and geeks find the bugs stressful. If TITAN was left till later when more of the general public are using it, they would not tolerate bugs at all making it impossible to release it.

As for the three letter agencies. Its not just BTSX that is working to defend privacy. The days where its acceptable for them to have their faces pushed up against are windows are coming to an end and thats just a fact of this time.

[sumantso]

How did you all lose BTSX?

[ag]

also because of stealth transactions I think we have more costly transfers. My understanding is with Titan that each online client has to do to expensive crypto computation on each transfer transaction in a block to determine if the transaction belongs to them or not.

[emski]

Similar problems(missing balances, non-backed up keys etc) might have existed even without TITAN.
Bad idea - No. (Just my opinion.)
Terribly timed feature - No. Better implement it in the beginning than re-educate users later on.

[tonyk]

i think TITAN is a good idea

Yes, it is.
Just a badly timed one.

[gyhy]

i think TITAN is a good idea

[tonyk]

@ all of you that call them lost - they are not lost... My OP was to just point it was rather pointless to introduce TiTAN, so some of us think they are lost and the developers spent time to make them available as soon as possible.

Best time to introduce TITAN? -imho, at some point after the peg has started working as expected... as just a new great  feature.

[luckybit]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

I've lost BTSX too. I assume it's not lost forever but tools can be made in the future to recover it. 

[CoinHoarder]

I guess BM is spending enormous amount of time providing support for 'account/amounts' floating in the blockchain (for reference check the # of new commands in the last release), while the greatest invention after the internet, could have well gone without the benefits of TITAN (and still remained the greatest thing in the last x.... years).

Ah, I see what you mean. I have an idea to fix this.

I propose making a troubleshooting tab to be included in the client instead of having the commands hidden in the console tab. Make it super user friendly to troubleshoot different problems. Under that trouble shooting tab there can be the following:

• For "Not Connected" issues or Resync issues, try the following:
  
  • A button that increases # of connected peers:
    network_set_advanced_node_parameters {"desired_number_of_connections":50, "maximum_number_of_connections":100}
  • A button that adds nodes manually:
    network_add_node "107.170.211.129:1700" add
    network_add_node "80.240.133.79:1776" add
    network_add_node "188.226.195.137:60696" add
    network_add_node "76.74.170.79:54200" add
    network_add_node "176.9.234.166:1700" add
    network_add_node "180.153.142.120:1777" add
    network_add_node "162.243.220.142:1777" add
    network_add_node "84.238.140.192:42577" add
    network_add_node "5.101.106.138:1778" add
    network_add_node "69.164.192.144:1700" add
    network_add_node "192.168.0.14:1776" add
    network_add_node "78.46.32.25:1776" add
    network_add_node "192.168.0.12:44327" add
    network_add_node "70.114.143.108:1776" add
    network_add_node "106.187.91.24:38581" add
    network_add_node "106.185.26.162:1981" add
    network_add_node "188.138.107.159:1776" add
    network_add_node "104.131.136.190:1776" add
    network_add_node "95.85.33.16:8764" add
    network_add_node "198.199.103.79:1776" add
    network_add_node "104.131.234.136:8801" add
• If your balance is wrong or missing, try the following:
  
  • A button that resyncs the block chain:
    wallet_rescan_blockchain
  • Etc.
• Etc.

Make it stupidly easy to troubleshoot the most common issues, then less people will come and ask about how to fix these things.

[luckybit]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

You have not lost them... I have 40 to 75K BTSX floating around the blockchain myself, my point is difference thou - BM is spending unnecessary time fixing a 'problem' he had no reason (no benefit) in creating in the first place.

Assume 3 letter agencies already track you. You think they this forum?

[bitmeat]

TITAN is just about number one on my list why I am using bitshares (equally it would be transaction speed).

To get rid of TITAN would be insane in my opinion. Anonymous coins will pretty much be the norm going forward. Why would it be any other way?

It is a great invention, no question! I am not against it at all.

Just wasn't the right time. As Onion pointed out, it introduced unnecessary problems.

That said, it's always easier after the fact, even with that - it is impressive what they've gotten done in this period of time.

It's always easier to project what's possible and to expect instant gratification, but things always take much longer to develop.

[luckybit]

My answer is unequivocally YES.

I know BM's No.

But what is yours?

Why do you think this?
What would have been a better time?

I think it's a good feature but it's also got pros and cons. I basically said the same thing when it was announced.

[cygnify]

TITAN is just about number one on my list why I am using bitshares (equally it would be transaction speed).

To get rid of TITAN would be insane in my opinion. Anonymous coins will pretty much be the norm going forward. Why would it be any other way?

[tonyk]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

You have not lost them... I have 40 to 75K BTSX floating around the blockchain myself, my point is difference thou - BM is spending unnecessary time fixing a 'problem' he had no reason (no benefit) in creating in the first place.

[tonyk]

My answer is unequivocally YES.

I know BM's No.

But what is yours?

If I have 100000 BTC.
I send 0.01 BTC to some guy around my street to buy several pizza.

He can see my 100000 BTC in the blockchain,know that I'm rich.

And some day, he lost he job,have a sick kid, sick wife,mouths to feed .

He can easily kidnap me and ask for my 100000 BTC.

So,do you understand why we need TITAN ?

I hope you understand that even with TITAN he can do that, if he has $500 to pay me (somebody) to do the analyses for him...

[bitmeat]

Given that due to TITAN I lost over 50K BTSX. I'd say yes. (It may be recovered at some point... who knows)

I also think TITAN adds a ton of extra risk. 3 letter agencies absolutely hate privacy. It should've been added after it's used by big businesses.

[tonyk]

I guess BM is spending enormous amount of time providing support for 'account/amounts' floating in the blockchain (for reference check the # of new commands in the last release), while the greatest invention after the internet, could have well gone without the benefits of TITAN (and still remained the greatest thing in the last x.... years).

[CoinHoarder]

My answer is unequivocally YES.

I know BM's No.

But what is yours?

You need to elaborate more than an "unequivocally YES."

I like that it forces people to used "Bitcoin's best practices", because most people don't know about the dangers poor financial privacy practices can bring. I think that we should look at making Bitshares DACs more anonymous than simply using TITAN through the use of ring signatures, coin join implementation, or zerocoin.

Big privacy advocate here.. what do you mean by "terribly timed feature" ?

[tonyk]

My answer is unequivocally YES.

I know BM's No.

But what is yours?