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Offline fuzzy

Delegate Legal Fund
« on: September 01, 2014, 12:32:15 PM »

What if all Delegates in the BitShares Ecosystem were to agree on a few absolutely imperative collaborative efforts in hopes of protecting each other in the case of legal entanglements with institutions that (although showing they do not deserve it) wish to have ultimate control over all human interaction?  They would do this through their well established "legal" pathways and regulations.  We can bet that when the system starts to really falter that crypto (not corruption of the current leadership) will be blamed--CryptoTerrorist is a term that will likely become common place as the powers that be try to push the buck onto those who are trying to fix the problems they created. 

With that said, Delegates will be the first place for these institutions to attack...So wouldn't it be worth it for all delegates to sign on to give a small % of their tx fees to a fund for legal fees in the case that any delegate is so labeled and embroiled in mounds of legal consequence?

We could even ask users if they would like to increase their tx fees by a slight amount to ensure that the fund becomes robust as quickly as possible.  Just a thought--please consider and give opinions below.
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Offline emski

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2014, 12:35:41 PM »
If that happen delegates will change.
It is possible to have anonymous delegates.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2014, 12:47:01 PM »
If that happen delegates will change.
It is possible to have anonymous delegates.

But the chilling effect would keep people from wanting to be delegates...much like the punishment of reporters "chills" the public's overall willingness to adequately uphold the power of the fourth estate (aka media).

As far as anonymous delegates---you don't want that either unless there is still a way to tie reputation to them by some measure without giving away personal information. 
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Offline emski

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2014, 01:24:33 PM »
I think some kind of public auditing mechanism for delegates should provide enough security.
For example each delegate shares all his transactions with public audit node(s) and when a block is generated each audit node publishes statistics about how many unknown transactions were included and how much the block produced differs from anticipated block (if you know the version of the delegate and its transaction you should be able to predict what will be included in block).
This way the delegate's cheating opportunities will be significantly lower and if that happen everyone will know.
You just need to make sure audit nodes are really public and everyone can become such node connected to any delegate.

Using this you might ignore delegate's identity as long as he does its job properly. (not to mention that in an extremely complex scenario a delegate could be constituted with multiple nodes sharing transactions, each node controlled by different entity and a block is produced only when all of them are in agreement). With such scenario you ignore any single entity in the block creation process...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 01:27:42 PM by emski »

Offline GaltReport

Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2014, 02:45:48 PM »
I think some kind of public auditing mechanism for delegates should provide enough security.
For example each delegate shares all his transactions with public audit node(s) and when a block is generated each audit node publishes statistics about how many unknown transactions were included and how much the block produced differs from anticipated block (if you know the version of the delegate and its transaction you should be able to predict what will be included in block).
This way the delegate's cheating opportunities will be significantly lower and if that happen everyone will know.
You just need to make sure audit nodes are really public and everyone can become such node connected to any delegate.

Using this you might ignore delegate's identity as long as he does its job properly. (not to mention that in an extremely complex scenario a delegate could be constituted with multiple nodes sharing transactions, each node controlled by different entity and a block is produced only when all of them are in agreement). With such scenario you ignore any single entity in the block creation process...

I agree with this.  I would trust real-time technical/cryptographic audting & transparency solutions.  Some of the people I distrust the most are public figures.  The concept of annonymity and privacy was a big part of bitcoin.  You only have to look at Satoshi Nakamoto himself...whoever he is.  :)

« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 02:48:02 PM by GaltReport »

Offline eagleeye

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 03:24:28 PM »
What if all Delegates in the BitShares Ecosystem were to agree on a few absolutely imperative collaborative efforts in hopes of protecting each other in the case of legal entanglements with institutions that (although showing they do not deserve it) wish to have ultimate control over all human interaction?  They would do this through their well established "legal" pathways and regulations.  We can bet that when the system starts to really falter that crypto (not corruption of the current leadership) will be blamed--CryptoTerrorist is a term that will likely become common place as the powers that be try to push the buck onto those who are trying to fix the problems they created. 

With that said, Delegates will be the first place for these institutions to attack...So wouldn't it be worth it for all delegates to sign on to give a small % of their tx fees to a fund for legal fees in the case that any delegate is so labeled and embroiled in mounds of legal consequence?

We could even ask users if they would like to increase their tx fees by a slight amount to ensure that the fund becomes robust as quickly as possible.  Just a thought--please consider and give opinions below.

I agree with you.  How much is the ecosystem processing (in terms of money) for delegates right now? (profit and loss on a daily basis).  Do we know if the delegates are on this forum?  If so please come out of the woodwork.  Remember NXT watches our forum, we must watch theres.  That is apart of the map of this digital warefare.

Fuznuts may I please have your Skype?  Message me it if you want.

Offline emski

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 03:36:01 PM »
Delegate's earnings is visible on the blockchain - type "info" on the command line.
Spending varies but I doubt it is enough to pay expenses (in my case it isn't, on some VPS instances it could be).

Offline eagleeye

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2014, 04:34:41 PM »
Delegate's earnings is visible on the blockchain - type "info" on the command line.
Spending varies but I doubt it is enough to pay expenses (in my case it isn't, on some VPS instances it could be).

I do not have the system installed as I am a technologist but not that competitor literate meaning, I know how long things take because of immense trial and error (developing over 50+ websites and businesses) but I still do not know how to reformat. 

Would you be kind enough and please tell me, it would be much appreciated?

Offline emski

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2014, 04:42:24 PM »
"blockchain_accumulated_fees": "260,192.88607 BTSX",
  "blockchain_delegate_pay_rate": "2.15106 BTSX",
And for more details:
Code: [Select]
ID    NAME (* next in line)           APPROVAL       PRODUCED MISSED   RELIABILITY   PAY RATE PAY BALANCE         LAST BLOCK
============================================================================================================================
10206 cny.bts500                      16.85455359 %  3387     30       99.12 %       80 %     2,674.15508 BTSX    373443
14758 bts.coin                        14.79362673 %  2360     11       99.54 %       90 %     950.03947 BTSX      373358
14020 google.helloworld               13.38721224 %  2143     1        99.95 %       80 %     313.85624 BTSX      373450
18771 x.ebit                          12.27658281 %  559      1        99.82 %       80 %     315.55295 BTSX      373442
10207 usd.bts500                      12.08120389 %  3389     25       99.27 %       80 %     2,674.41942 BTSX    373399
10214 eur.bts500                      12.03326994 %  3382     29       99.15 %       80 %     2,662.14955 BTSX    373425
8790  delegate.adam                   11.74809644 %  3126     368      89.47 %       100 %    4,473.86809 BTSX    373309
2151  delegate-alt                    11.63305137 %  2840     73       97.49 %       100 %    1,369.78641 BTSX    373431
18764 now.dacwin                      11.59358993 %  1261     0        100.00 %      100 %    1,903.79477 BTSX    373413
18766 future.dacwin                   11.50148011 %  1251     0        100.00 %      100 %    1,888.83802 BTSX    373424
14757 e.coin                          11.35053374 %  494      7        98.60 %       90 %     771.41764 BTSX      373453
2156  delegate-baozi                  11.08585789 %  3550     36       99.00 %       100 %    638.55987 BTSX      373406
334   chinese                         11.05490832 %  3565     69       98.10 %       80 %     909.65944 BTSX      373432
10173 dpos.crazybit                   10.93704661 %  3301     15       99.55 %       90 %     2,160.90164 BTSX    373444
10243 delegate.bitsuperlab            10.85605587 %  2394     2        99.92 %       100 %    3,268.82911 BTSX    373323
10323 btsx.chinesecommunity           10.85116130 %  3287     123      96.39 %       50 %     194.33625 BTSX      373404
10287 mr.agsexplorer                  10.83899255 %  3239     92       97.24 %       100 %    49.53830 BTSX       373416
9879  delegate.xeroc                  10.76160259 %  3279     131      96.16 %       100 %    899.77057 BTSX      373420
1193  dele-puppy                      10.69383611 %  3410     85       97.57 %       10 %     111.78069 BTSX      373389
129   boombastic                      10.62097325 %  3394     112      96.81 %       100 %    397.49887 BTSX      373434

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2014, 06:40:01 PM »
Rather than being defensive and assuming the government will go after delegates, I think a better solution would be for delegates to be proactive and participate in discussions with regulators. My strategy is to be 100% legit all the time, I'm not going to hide and hope my anonymity can protect me (it can't). At the same time, I don't see any clear regulatory problems at the moment, but I plan on participating in discussions with regulators and complying with whatever comes up as the proper way to legitimize/protect consumers/follow the law (whatever someone wants to call it). As of now, BTSX and BitUSD are just crypto currencires and as such I'm following the proper tax laws and FINCEN guidance as any miner of cryptocurrencies should.

If bitsharesx really takes off, delegates (and users) may want to get together and figure out a centralized approach to handling regulation - sort of like the bitcoin foundation does for bitcoin.
maintains an Ubuntu PPA: https://launchpad.net/~showard314/+archive/ubuntu/bitshares [15% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval maqifrnswa true [50% delegate] wallet_account_set_approval delegate1.maqifrnswa true

Offline eagleeye

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2014, 06:43:39 PM »
"blockchain_accumulated_fees": "260,192.88607 BTSX",
  "blockchain_delegate_pay_rate": "2.15106 BTSX",
And for more details:
Code: [Select]
ID    NAME (* next in line)           APPROVAL       PRODUCED MISSED   RELIABILITY   PAY RATE PAY BALANCE         LAST BLOCK
============================================================================================================================
10206 cny.bts500                      16.85455359 %  3387     30       99.12 %       80 %     2,674.15508 BTSX    373443
14758 bts.coin                        14.79362673 %  2360     11       99.54 %       90 %     950.03947 BTSX      373358
14020 google.helloworld               13.38721224 %  2143     1        99.95 %       80 %     313.85624 BTSX      373450
18771 x.ebit                          12.27658281 %  559      1        99.82 %       80 %     315.55295 BTSX      373442
10207 usd.bts500                      12.08120389 %  3389     25       99.27 %       80 %     2,674.41942 BTSX    373399
10214 eur.bts500                      12.03326994 %  3382     29       99.15 %       80 %     2,662.14955 BTSX    373425
8790  delegate.adam                   11.74809644 %  3126     368      89.47 %       100 %    4,473.86809 BTSX    373309
2151  delegate-alt                    11.63305137 %  2840     73       97.49 %       100 %    1,369.78641 BTSX    373431
18764 now.dacwin                      11.59358993 %  1261     0        100.00 %      100 %    1,903.79477 BTSX    373413
18766 future.dacwin                   11.50148011 %  1251     0        100.00 %      100 %    1,888.83802 BTSX    373424
14757 e.coin                          11.35053374 %  494      7        98.60 %       90 %     771.41764 BTSX      373453
2156  delegate-baozi                  11.08585789 %  3550     36       99.00 %       100 %    638.55987 BTSX      373406
334   chinese                         11.05490832 %  3565     69       98.10 %       80 %     909.65944 BTSX      373432
10173 dpos.crazybit                   10.93704661 %  3301     15       99.55 %       90 %     2,160.90164 BTSX    373444
10243 delegate.bitsuperlab            10.85605587 %  2394     2        99.92 %       100 %    3,268.82911 BTSX    373323
10323 btsx.chinesecommunity           10.85116130 %  3287     123      96.39 %       50 %     194.33625 BTSX      373404
10287 mr.agsexplorer                  10.83899255 %  3239     92       97.24 %       100 %    49.53830 BTSX       373416
9879  delegate.xeroc                  10.76160259 %  3279     131      96.16 %       100 %    899.77057 BTSX      373420
1193  dele-puppy                      10.69383611 %  3410     85       97.57 %       10 %     111.78069 BTSX      373389
129   boombastic                      10.62097325 %  3394     112      96.81 %       100 %    397.49887 BTSX      373434

Thank you very much Sir.

So right now the daily rate is very low?

Offline maqifrnswa

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 06:56:57 PM »
So right now the daily rate is very low?

right now:

"blockchain_delegate_pay_rate": "2.15106 BTSX"

so if you are a 100% delegate, you get 2.15106 BTSX every 16ish minutes. at $0.03/BTSX that means the current pay is:
avg delegate: .84*2.15*6*60*24/101= 155 BTSX/day = $4.63/day
100% payrate delegate = $5.52/day
15% delegate = $0.83/day  ;)
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Offline soniq

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 07:03:23 PM »
Rather than being defensive and assuming the government will go after delegates, I think a better solution would be for delegates to be proactive and participate in discussions with regulators. My strategy is to be 100% legit all the time, I'm not going to hide and hope my anonymity can protect me (it can't). At the same time, I don't see any clear regulatory problems at the moment, but I plan on participating in discussions with regulators and complying with whatever comes up as the proper way to legitimize/protect consumers/follow the law (whatever someone wants to call it). As of now, BTSX and BitUSD are just crypto currencires and as such I'm following the proper tax laws and FINCEN guidance as any miner of cryptocurrencies should.

If bitsharesx really takes off, delegates (and users) may want to get together and figure out a centralized approach to handling regulation - sort of like the bitcoin foundation does for bitcoin.

well said  +5%

funds could be pooled to create a lobby group to proactively work with regulators
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 07:05:14 PM by soniq »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2014, 07:19:45 PM »
Rather than being defensive and assuming the government will go after delegates, I think a better solution would be for delegates to be proactive and participate in discussions with regulators. My strategy is to be 100% legit all the time, I'm not going to hide and hope my anonymity can protect me (it can't). At the same time, I don't see any clear regulatory problems at the moment, but I plan on participating in discussions with regulators and complying with whatever comes up as the proper way to legitimize/protect consumers/follow the law (whatever someone wants to call it). As of now, BTSX and BitUSD are just crypto currencires and as such I'm following the proper tax laws and FINCEN guidance as any miner of cryptocurrencies should.

If bitsharesx really takes off, delegates (and users) may want to get together and figure out a centralized approach to handling regulation - sort of like the bitcoin foundation does for bitcoin.

well said  +5%

funds could be pooled to create a lobby group to proactively work with regulators

100% "legit" means that the interests who are currently employing treasonous measures against the public will gain more control over the ecosystem.  The only reason, for instance, that the IRS still exists and forces "taxes" (read theft) on citizens is because there have not been enough people who got pissed off about the IRS' Illegal Operations to change the status quo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azynljXxbC0). 

Being "legit" is fine...but it is a whole other thing to comply with illegal requirements simply out of fear that we will be imprisoned or otherwise penalized.  This simply lends to the public's sense of legitimacy over these types of institutions...which most can agree, are illegal (meaning those working for them should be the ones penalized!). 

This is precisely why I am thinking it is important to have a legal team there and ready in the instances that legal cases present themselves as opportunities to set precedents favorable to our ecosystem. 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 07:35:10 PM by theFuzz »
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Offline cryptillionaire

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Re: Delegate Legal Fund
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2014, 07:40:23 PM »
This is actually the main thing holding me back from creating a delegate - purely because of the way my government might react. Hell.. they jailed a guy for running a proxy server in the uk, what're they going to think of a decentralized bank? : P

Ach, i'll put a vpn on the server so that its location is properly hidden.. i think that's possible eh?

 

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