Is Bitshares and the Platform? - A Dark Pool - Are they illegal - No

[eagleeye]

I think we need to emphasize that BTSX is a contract-free system.  No legal obligations on any parties at any time.

Ok (for now contract-free).  (Not trying to disrespect you THE Bytemaster)

Can we integrate further things like bit_mortgage_security_freddie_mac_4_percent_50_basis_points.  And have people buy and sell these?

[gamey]

what you are talking about?

it is like as the Wright brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

ask before the invented a flying machine, if it is legal to build such a machine. First is the invention and then you can fight the legal guys. what is the point that we agree in a legal definition? do you really believe someone on wallstreet with billions to spend at lawyers will agree?

I agree THE Bytemaster is a Wright Brother.

I do think though that the law has convoluted legal definition of what we are.  Meaning like bitshares (ie cryptocurrency 2.0 building on the ideas of bitcoin (cryptocurrency)) we take a legal definition of something in the past say an SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) regulation/law/or/legislation and are prepared when the banks want to put up protectionist laws.

[bytemaster]

I think we need to emphasize that BTSX is a contract-free system.  No legal obligations on any parties at any time. 

[eagleeye]

what you are talking about?

it is like as the Wright brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

ask before the invented a flying machine, if it is legal to build such a machine. First is the invention and then you can fight the legal guys. what is the point that we agree in a legal definition? do you really believe someone on wallstreet with billions to spend at lawyers will agree?

I agree THE Bytemaster is a Wright Brother.

I do think though that the law has convoluted legal definition of what we are.  Meaning like bitshares (ie cryptocurrency 2.0 building on the ideas of bitcoin (cryptocurrency)) we take a legal definition of something in the past say an SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) regulation/law/or/legislation and are prepared when the banks want to put up protectionist laws.

[Shentist]

what you are talking about?

it is like as the Wright brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

ask before the invented a flying machine, if it is legal to build such a machine. First is the invention and then you can fight the legal guys. what is the point that we agree in a legal definition? do you really believe someone on wallstreet with billions to spend at lawyers will agree?

[oco101]

Read this : http://bitshares.org/a-bitrose-by-any-other-name/

[gamey]

It is off-topic but "...if we kill the banks" they will not go down lightly.  I would love to hear what THE Bytemaster has to say about legal issues or Andy Beal Legal Counsel on the developers team.

You have a Bloomberg Terminal?

It has all been talked about before.  There are no legal issues of the type you are talking about.  This is all an experiment.  It is a currency, a system of tokens, whatever you wish to call it.  It is not a security, a stock, or a share.  Those have legal definitions which excludes BTSX.  There is nothing more to discuss.

The fact that you expect Dan or their legal counsel to answer your questions on demand is absurd.  You have noised up this forum immensely with comments that I fail to find value in.

[eagleeye]

I agree with possibly not associating them with Dark Pools.  But we need to find the legal definition of what we are doing, as cryptocurrency asset exchange is completely new.
[/quote]

Why? The US Gov't and Wall Street are not going to give up their monopoly hence why cryptos are a whole new and decentralized asset class outside the system...

[/quote]
On a different note Dark Pools can have derivatives and that is what I believe a bitAsset is.
[/quote]

Most derivatives are traded over-the-counter (OTC) meaning that the transactions do not take place on a formal exchange. That is not the same as a Dark Pool. The one and only function of a Dark Pool is to move massive amounts of equities without moving the market. Derivatives by definition are not supposed to move the underlying although there's some evidence of that statement not being true but that's getting off topic...

Goldman's SIGMA X held stocks which are publicly disclosed...What's not disclosed is size of the blocks being traded.



I've seen your other posts and I'm all for promoting BTSX but you're getting off topic here and confusing matters by trying to define (legally) what a bitasset is which just ins't relevant at thing point.
[/quote]

It is off-topic but "...if we kill the banks" they will not go down lightly.  I would love to hear what THE Bytemaster has to say about legal issues or Andy Beal Legal Counsel on the developers team.

You have a Bloomberg Terminal?

[donkeypong]

Can you slow down with these posts? The BitShares folks have been advised extensively by legal counsel. All has been vetted. They have told you this on other threads. You still don't get it?

Tell me what we can define the bitshares, bitassets, and ecosystem as?  I understand a lot has been vetted.

What is the legal definitions behind what we are?

If I get this, ill start moving my institutional and moneyed friends in.  In my circle I am the early adopter.

Two words for you: play money.

[wrzkll]

 
[/quote]
I agree with possibly not associating them with Dark Pools.  But we need to find the legal definition of what we are doing, as cryptocurrency asset exchange is completely new.
[/quote]

Why? The US Gov't and Wall Street are not going to give up their monopoly hence why cryptos are a whole new and decentralized asset class outside the system...

[/quote]
On a different note Dark Pools can have derivatives and that is what I believe a bitAsset is.
[/quote]

Most derivatives are traded over-the-counter (OTC) meaning that the transactions do not take place on a formal exchange. That is not the same as a Dark Pool. The one and only function of a Dark Pool is to move massive amounts of equities without moving the market. Derivatives by definition are not supposed to move the underlying although there's some evidence of that statement not being true but that's getting off topic...

Goldman's SIGMA X held stocks which are publicly disclosed...What's not disclosed is size of the blocks being traded.



I've seen your other posts and I'm all for promoting BTSX but you're getting off topic here and confusing matters by trying to define (legally) what a bitasset is which just isn't relevant at thing point. 

[eagleeye]

Can you slow down with these posts? The BitShares folks have been advised extensively by legal counsel. All has been vetted. They have told you this on other threads. You still don't get it?

Tell me what we can define the bitshares, bitassets, and ecosystem as?  I understand a lot has been vetted.

What is the legal definitions behind what we are?

If I get this, ill start moving my institutional and moneyed friends in.  In my circle I am the early adopter.

[donkeypong]

Can you slow down with these posts? The BitShares folks have been advised extensively by legal counsel. All has been vetted. They have told you this on other threads. You still don't get it?

[eagleeye]

Dark Pools are not illegal but they are riddled with fraud...Moreover, bit assets are just a peg to real world assets which for all legal purposes, are all imaginary unlike Dark Pools which do hold real assets off market. By your argument, BitUSD might be already violating the "law" by tracking the price of the USD...   

Goldman Sachs's SIGMA X Dark Pool (Biggest and baddest of them all) was brought down by scandal and bad rep. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304819004579490030481110264 (Or Google "Goldman Mulls Closing Dark Pool" to get through the pay wall).

I would sway away from associating Bit-Assets with Dark Pools because A)They are not B)The association brings more confusion and complexity to something that's already hard to understand as is.
 

 

I agree with possibly not associating them with Dark Pools.  But we need to find the legal definition of what we are doing, as cryptocurrency asset exchange is completely new.

On a different note Dark Pools can have derivatives and that is what I believe a bitAsset is.

[eagleeye]

It's in the sources and you agreed to it when you first launched the GUI:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dacsunlimited/web_wallet/master/app/templates/licenseagreement.html

Where do I find the BSD License? (In the ToS <p>1.3)

This is just a user agreement.  This does not specify the law of whether we are allowed to have bit_GOOGLE_shares.  Either we help write the laws in the future by being right/havingthe/truth or we get shut down.

Either we prepare now, or when the time comes, game over.

So you really have no clue what this is all about ?

what do you mean "this" about?  The Terms of service?

[wrzkll]

Dark Pools are not illegal but they are riddled with fraud...Moreover, bit assets are just a peg to real world assets which for all legal purposes, are all imaginary unlike Dark Pools which do hold real assets off market. By your argument, BitUSD might be already violating the "law" by tracking the price of the USD...   

Goldman Sachs's SIGMA X Dark Pool (Biggest and baddest of them all) was brought down by scandal and bad rep. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304819004579490030481110264 (Or Google "Goldman Mulls Closing Dark Pool" to get through the pay wall).

I would sway away from associating Bit-Assets with Dark Pools because A)They are not B)The association brings more confusion and complexity to something that's already hard to understand as is.
 

 

[xeroc]

Quote from the EULA:

  <p>1.2. The Service is not for use by (i) individuals under 18 years of age, (ii)
  individuals under the legal age of majority in their jurisdiction and (iii) individuals
  accessing the Service from jurisdictions from which it is illegal to do so. DSL is not
  able to verify the legality of the Service in each jurisdiction and it is the User's
  responsibility to ensure that their use of the Service is lawful.</p>

I actually started reading it .. just in case someone starts blaming ...

[cass]

I am pretty sure that DacSunLimited cleared out all legal issues before they launched the DAC .. haven't you read the EULA?

yup guess so

[gamey]

It's in the sources and you agreed to it when you first launched the GUI:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dacsunlimited/web_wallet/master/app/templates/licenseagreement.html

Where do I find the BSD License? (In the ToS <p>1.3)

This is just a user agreement.  This does not specify the law of whether we are allowed to have bit_GOOGLE_shares.  Either we help write the laws in the future by being right/havingthe/truth or we get shut down.

Either we prepare now, or when the time comes, game over.

So you really have no clue what this is all about ?

[eagleeye]

It's in the sources and you agreed to it when you first launched the GUI:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dacsunlimited/web_wallet/master/app/templates/licenseagreement.html

Where do I find the BSD License? (In the ToS <p>1.3)

This is just a user agreement.  This does not specify the law of whether we are allowed to have bit_GOOGLE_shares.  Either we help write the laws in the future by being right/havingthe/truth or we get shut down.

Either we prepare now, or when the time comes, game over.

[xeroc]

It's in the sources and you agreed to it when you first launched the GUI:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dacsunlimited/web_wallet/master/app/templates/licenseagreement.html

[eagleeye]

I am pretty sure that DacSunLimited cleared out all legal issues before they launched the DAC .. haven't you read the EULA?

Link me please, ill read it.

[xeroc]

I am pretty sure that DacSunLimited cleared out all legal issues before they launched the DAC .. haven't you read the EULA?

[eagleeye]

so you have a degree in laws? US-laws? EU laws? international law? or maybe chinese laws?
Not sure what you want to achieve here ..

Make sure the governments dont shut us down.  No I am not a lawyer but I was the top student in business law.  I dont want to have this shut down, no?  So we must hash out the terms so we dont get all wiped out. 

[xeroc]

so you have a degree in laws? US-laws? EU laws? international law? or maybe chinese laws?
Not sure what you want to achieve here ..

[eagleeye]

Why did you create another thread for this when you already created one about the same topic? Can I kindly ask that you not create these topic seems like you are just bumping your post count more than anything.

Again I think you are misplacing terms of crypto technology with what the intentions of using a Dark pool are..

Few people look into the Legal Section.  Im trying to get a discussion going with not just experienced members, but also newbie members who may have insights we have not covered.

[jsidhu]

Why did you create another thread for this when you already created one about the same topic? Can I kindly ask that you not create these topic seems like you are just bumping your post count more than anything.

Again I think you are misplacing terms of crypto technology with what the intentions of using a Dark pool are..

See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8553.new#new for original thread.

[eagleeye]

In finance, a dark pool (also black pool) is a private forum for trading securities that is not openly available to the public. Liquidity on these markets is called dark pool liquidity.[1] The bulk of dark pool trades represent large trades by financial institutions that are offered away from public exchanges like the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ, so that such trades remain confidential and outside the purview of the general investing public. The fragmentation of financial trading venues and electronic trading has allowed dark pools to be created, and they are normally accessed through crossing networks or directly among market participants via private contractual arrangements.  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_liquidity

Go to the wikipedia link and keep reading to understand the full extent of what im talking about.

This should mean with the right legal process in place we can trade bitGOOG   (Google Shares)

Just because it says "...for insitutional investors" does not mean it has to be and it is completely done like that.  The main features of a dark pool, are secret and anonymously.