Author Topic: Is Bitshares and the Platform? - A Dark Pool - Are they illegal - No  (Read 4707 times)

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Offline eagleeye

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I think we need to emphasize that BTSX is a contract-free system.  No legal obligations on any parties at any time.

Ok (for now contract-free).  (Not trying to disrespect you THE Bytemaster)

Can we integrate further things like bit_mortgage_security_freddie_mac_4_percent_50_basis_points.  And have people buy and sell these?

Offline gamey

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what you are talking about?

it is like as the Wright brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

ask before the invented a flying machine, if it is legal to build such a machine. First is the invention and then you can fight the legal guys. what is the point that we agree in a legal definition? do you really believe someone on wallstreet with billions to spend at lawyers will agree?

I agree THE Bytemaster is a Wright Brother.

I do think though that the law has convoluted legal definition of what we are.  Meaning like bitshares (ie cryptocurrency 2.0 building on the ideas of bitcoin (cryptocurrency)) we take a legal definition of something in the past say an SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) regulation/law/or/legislation and are prepared when the banks want to put up protectionist laws.

I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline bytemaster

I think we need to emphasize that BTSX is a contract-free system.  No legal obligations on any parties at any time. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline eagleeye

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what you are talking about?

it is like as the Wright brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

ask before the invented a flying machine, if it is legal to build such a machine. First is the invention and then you can fight the legal guys. what is the point that we agree in a legal definition? do you really believe someone on wallstreet with billions to spend at lawyers will agree?

I agree THE Bytemaster is a Wright Brother.

I do think though that the law has convoluted legal definition of what we are.  Meaning like bitshares (ie cryptocurrency 2.0 building on the ideas of bitcoin (cryptocurrency)) we take a legal definition of something in the past say an SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) regulation/law/or/legislation and are prepared when the banks want to put up protectionist laws.

Offline Shentist

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what you are talking about?

it is like as the Wright brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers

ask before the invented a flying machine, if it is legal to build such a machine. First is the invention and then you can fight the legal guys. what is the point that we agree in a legal definition? do you really believe someone on wallstreet with billions to spend at lawyers will agree?


Offline gamey

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It is off-topic but "...if we kill the banks" they will not go down lightly.  I would love to hear what THE Bytemaster has to say about legal issues or Andy Beal Legal Counsel on the developers team.

You have a Bloomberg Terminal?

It has all been talked about before.  There are no legal issues of the type you are talking about.  This is all an experiment.  It is a currency, a system of tokens, whatever you wish to call it.  It is not a security, a stock, or a share.  Those have legal definitions which excludes BTSX.  There is nothing more to discuss.

The fact that you expect Dan or their legal counsel to answer your questions on demand is absurd.  You have noised up this forum immensely with comments that I fail to find value in.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline eagleeye

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I agree with possibly not associating them with Dark Pools.  But we need to find the legal definition of what we are doing, as cryptocurrency asset exchange is completely new.
[/quote]

Why? The US Gov't and Wall Street are not going to give up their monopoly hence why cryptos are a whole new and decentralized asset class outside the system...

[/quote]
On a different note Dark Pools can have derivatives and that is what I believe a bitAsset is.
[/quote]

Most derivatives are traded over-the-counter (OTC) meaning that the transactions do not take place on a formal exchange. That is not the same as a Dark Pool. The one and only function of a Dark Pool is to move massive amounts of equities without moving the market. Derivatives by definition are not supposed to move the underlying although there's some evidence of that statement not being true but that's getting off topic...

Goldman's SIGMA X held stocks which are publicly disclosed...What's not disclosed is size of the blocks being traded.



I've seen your other posts and I'm all for promoting BTSX but you're getting off topic here and confusing matters by trying to define (legally) what a bitasset is which just ins't relevant at thing point.
[/quote]

It is off-topic but "...if we kill the banks" they will not go down lightly.  I would love to hear what THE Bytemaster has to say about legal issues or Andy Beal Legal Counsel on the developers team.

You have a Bloomberg Terminal?

Offline donkeypong

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Can you slow down with these posts? The BitShares folks have been advised extensively by legal counsel. All has been vetted. They have told you this on other threads. You still don't get it?

Tell me what we can define the bitshares, bitassets, and ecosystem as?  I understand a lot has been vetted.

What is the legal definitions behind what we are?

If I get this, ill start moving my institutional and moneyed friends in.  In my circle I am the early adopter.

Two words for you: play money.

Offline wrzkll

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[/quote]
I agree with possibly not associating them with Dark Pools.  But we need to find the legal definition of what we are doing, as cryptocurrency asset exchange is completely new.
[/quote]

Why? The US Gov't and Wall Street are not going to give up their monopoly hence why cryptos are a whole new and decentralized asset class outside the system...

[/quote]
On a different note Dark Pools can have derivatives and that is what I believe a bitAsset is.
[/quote]

Most derivatives are traded over-the-counter (OTC) meaning that the transactions do not take place on a formal exchange. That is not the same as a Dark Pool. The one and only function of a Dark Pool is to move massive amounts of equities without moving the market. Derivatives by definition are not supposed to move the underlying although there's some evidence of that statement not being true but that's getting off topic...

Goldman's SIGMA X held stocks which are publicly disclosed...What's not disclosed is size of the blocks being traded.



I've seen your other posts and I'm all for promoting BTSX but you're getting off topic here and confusing matters by trying to define (legally) what a bitasset is which just isn't relevant at thing point. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 06:38:32 pm by wrzkll »

Offline eagleeye

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Can you slow down with these posts? The BitShares folks have been advised extensively by legal counsel. All has been vetted. They have told you this on other threads. You still don't get it?

Tell me what we can define the bitshares, bitassets, and ecosystem as?  I understand a lot has been vetted.

What is the legal definitions behind what we are?

If I get this, ill start moving my institutional and moneyed friends in.  In my circle I am the early adopter.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 06:20:05 pm by eagleeye »

Offline donkeypong

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Can you slow down with these posts? The BitShares folks have been advised extensively by legal counsel. All has been vetted. They have told you this on other threads. You still don't get it?

Offline eagleeye

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Dark Pools are not illegal but they are riddled with fraud...Moreover, bit assets are just a peg to real world assets which for all legal purposes, are all imaginary unlike Dark Pools which do hold real assets off market. By your argument, BitUSD might be already violating the "law" by tracking the price of the USD...   

Goldman Sachs's SIGMA X Dark Pool (Biggest and baddest of them all) was brought down by scandal and bad rep. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304819004579490030481110264 (Or Google "Goldman Mulls Closing Dark Pool" to get through the pay wall).

I would sway away from associating Bit-Assets with Dark Pools because A)They are not B)The association brings more confusion and complexity to something that's already hard to understand as is.
 

 

I agree with possibly not associating them with Dark Pools.  But we need to find the legal definition of what we are doing, as cryptocurrency asset exchange is completely new.

On a different note Dark Pools can have derivatives and that is what I believe a bitAsset is.

Offline eagleeye

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It's in the sources and you agreed to it when you first launched the GUI:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dacsunlimited/web_wallet/master/app/templates/licenseagreement.html

Where do I find the BSD License? (In the ToS <p>1.3)

This is just a user agreement.  This does not specify the law of whether we are allowed to have bit_GOOGLE_shares.  Either we help write the laws in the future by being right/havingthe/truth or we get shut down.

Either we prepare now, or when the time comes, game over.

So you really have no clue what this is all about ?

what do you mean "this" about?  The Terms of service?

Offline wrzkll

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Dark Pools are not illegal but they are riddled with fraud...Moreover, bit assets are just a peg to real world assets which for all legal purposes, are all imaginary unlike Dark Pools which do hold real assets off market. By your argument, BitUSD might be already violating the "law" by tracking the price of the USD...   

Goldman Sachs's SIGMA X Dark Pool (Biggest and baddest of them all) was brought down by scandal and bad rep. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304819004579490030481110264 (Or Google "Goldman Mulls Closing Dark Pool" to get through the pay wall).

I would sway away from associating Bit-Assets with Dark Pools because A)They are not B)The association brings more confusion and complexity to something that's already hard to understand as is.