I am putting up a $10,000 bounty to break DPOS.... Join me.

[Method-X]

If you can't highlight your features then how are you supposed to capture the imagination? The only thing to distinguish one technology from another is the specs. If they feel it's "us against them" because they are too tribal to care about the technological innovation then you aren't going to capture them anyway.

If they are rational and objective then you show them that you can do stuff they can't do on their technology.  If they want to do what you can do then they'll have to switch.

I agree with most everything you say but keep in mind how you frame it. We can't come across as sitting on a high horse with our "superior technology". We need to go under their radar.

[luckybit]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for! 

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate" 

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

This is the sort of marketing campaign I think we need to use on Bitcoiners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Highlight specs.
Highlight features.
Hightlight everything that Bitcoin can't do.
Highlight everything that Bitshares X can do.

The commercial above exemplifies that approach. In our comments on forums we should highlight features that Bitcoin can't support or cannot do without a hardfork.

Bytemaster will have to reveal to us the sort of features Bitcoin could never do but I would think the 5% interest is among them.

I'm not in charge of the marketing campaign but my suggestion is we the users should start talking about the sorts of transactions we are doing, the ease at which we are making money, the shield from volatility. When there is a forum thread or time when Bitcoiners are complaining about the price crashing we should be the first to remind them about Bitshares X.

Look to the console wars to learn how marketing on the specs and feature sets can work. It typically works in favor of the consoles with the best specs, most games, best price, etc. So keep talking about how much money the Bitcoiners are losing because to a poor person there is no better marketing.

This may create an "us vs. them" mentality. We should seek to capture their imaginations instead of hard selling them on features.

If you can't highlight your features then how are you supposed to capture the imagination? The only thing to distinguish one technology from another is the specs. If they feel it's "us against them" because they are too tribal to care about the technological innovation then you aren't going to capture them anyway.

If they are rational and objective then you show them that you can do stuff they can't do on their technology.  If they want to do what you can do then they'll have to switch.

[Method-X]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for! 

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate" 

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

This is the sort of marketing campaign I think we need to use on Bitcoiners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Highlight specs.
Highlight features.
Hightlight everything that Bitcoin can't do.
Highlight everything that Bitshares X can do.

The commercial above exemplifies that approach. In our comments on forums we should highlight features that Bitcoin can't support or cannot do without a hardfork.

Bytemaster will have to reveal to us the sort of features Bitcoin could never do but I would think the 5% interest is among them.

I'm not in charge of the marketing campaign but my suggestion is we the users should start talking about the sorts of transactions we are doing, the ease at which we are making money, the shield from volatility. When there is a forum thread or time when Bitcoiners are complaining about the price crashing we should be the first to remind them about Bitshares X.

Look to the console wars to learn how marketing on the specs and feature sets can work. It typically works in favor of the consoles with the best specs, most games, best price, etc. So keep talking about how much money the Bitcoiners are losing because to a poor person there is no better marketing.

This may create an "us vs. them" mentality. We should seek to capture their imaginations instead of hard selling them on features.

[luckybit]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for! 

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate" 

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

This is the sort of marketing campaign I think we need to use on Bitcoiners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Highlight specs.
Highlight features.
Hightlight everything that Bitcoin can't do.
Highlight everything that Bitshares X can do.

The commercial above exemplifies that approach. In our comments on forums we should highlight features that Bitcoin can't support or cannot do without a hardfork.

Bytemaster will have to reveal to us the sort of features Bitcoin could never do but I would think the 5% interest is among them.

I'm not in charge of the marketing campaign but my suggestion is we the users should start talking about the sorts of transactions we are doing, the ease at which we are making money, the shield from volatility. When there is a forum thread or time when Bitcoiners are complaining about the price crashing we should be the first to remind them about Bitshares X.

Look to the console wars to learn how marketing on the specs and feature sets can work. It typically works in favor of the consoles with the best specs, most games, best price, etc. So keep talking about how much money the Bitcoiners are losing because to a poor person there is no better marketing.

[luckybit]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   Let me explain.

Will bitcoin ever hardfork to DPOS.   Well the answer is, if they are smart.... the truth is, getting consensus on that will be very difficult.  IT may happen. It may not.   But I sure as hell am going to mention the possibility of it happening right up front in every conversation I have with a bitcoiner.  Why?  Because I have been a marketer for 15 years and I know that the majority of people have 2 massive psychological incentives to keep a closed mind about the validity of DPOS.

1. They have been telling their friends for years the bitcoin is the shit and it even if another crypto came along and surpassed it, then most would have to admit they were wrong to a degree.  Not many bitcoiners give themselves the out that "crypto will be king" instead of "bitcoin will be king."

2. Most people in bitcoin are not wealthy.   Bitcoin is their chance to make big money.  They hang on to it with desperation. 

As a result of these two powerful psychological drivers, most people in crypto approach new things outside of bitcoin with a very closed mind.  If we can alleviate these concerns, then they may just have their mind open enough for long enough to listen and get enthusiastic about it.

It is interesting to note that the biggest bitcoin "celebrity" to endorse DPOS is a savant. Vitalik has near immunity from psychological triggers.    And then even though he has all that clout with his team, he still has trouble convincing them DPOS is the shit because of their psychological triggers.

Yourself, Dan and Brian, all reported experiencing that exact resistance when speaking to most people.   I think you guys knew why (Dan said so explicitly), you just didn't know how to fix it.   

The way to fix it is to explain that neither of these things are being threatened by your new idea..... in fact.... these new ideas you are about to introduce to them is very much aligned with their goals of being right(1) and rich(2).
http://redirect.disqus.com/url?impression=cd7ed77a-39c4-11e4-8044-002590f382ca&experiment=digests&behavior=click&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%3Fp%3D1546441%26preview_id%3D1546441%23comment-1584242568%3AVeS0ybiBp4JWWm99pE07KcyDmr0&type=notification.post.registered&variant=active&event=email
Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

Instead the comments will hopefully read, "This could be the coolest thing for bitcoin since Satoshi."  "DPOS could be the killer feature to send Bitcoin to the moon", etc.

If you guys do that then, I think we will get a great result from this video.

As for all of your other points I agree.  If we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and begin the conversation with why Bitcoin is dead, then the superiority of the technology will slowly but surely win out eventually.  But if we are smart...  it will happen a lot faster.

Bitcoin is already being forked into Cooperative Proof of Stake. It is a waste of time to duplicate that effort because there is a competent developer already on that. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584719.0

Resources should be directed towards another objective which isn't already being worked on by a competent developer.

I do think you should highlight DPoS technology but the main thing is to show that DPoS can do things Bitcoin will never be able to do without a hard fork.

[Method-X]

You picked me like a dirty nose.    I know Yanik, and know of Neil.  I know lots of IM'ers and a few of the PUA world. Mystery's camp specifically.

I liked your framing of the financical experiment.   I might just steal that one.

Add it to your swipe file friend 

[santaclause102]

Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

I agree, there were a lot of us there... But even when I talk about BitShares X to crypto friends and try to "convince" them based on features, they just roll their eyes and dismiss it as "just another alt". When I talk about it as a really cool experiment all of a sudden they're interested.

The bounty should be targeted to the InfoSec community which is a different community from the general Bitcoin community. Specifically you would want to attract hackers.

...which would also attract developers.

[luckybit]

Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

I agree, there were a lot of us there... But even when I talk about BitShares X to crypto friends and try to "convince" them based on features, they just roll their eyes and dismiss it as "just another alt". When I talk about it as a really cool experiment all of a sudden they're interested.

The bounty should be targeted to the InfoSec community which is a different community from the general Bitcoin community. Specifically you would want to attract hackers.

[xeroc]

Not with one word would I mention anything that has to do with getting rich or anything of that sort!! This will only cause greed and divide and make the DPOS / BitShares effort about money making where it is about the ideals of freedom you talk about all day!

Make it about the idea and ideals of Bitcoin and how it can be reached with DPOS / BitShares. Strip yourself and the Bitshares idea from anything material / money / rich. If it is about the ideal people are more incentivized to talk neutrally about the technology.

I dont know how that is that different to you (all here). To me anything that sounds like "get rich quick" sounds fishy and like a scam. Make it about the ideals and the technology and not about money! People will realize the rest by themselves. Ppl are always happy when they can realize something themselves, they end up being more convinced when they realized it themselves.

In that sense I am also a big fan of the company analogy. It totally makes sense since crypto currencies are like money /payment networks issued by companies/individuals. It is easily to come to the conclusion that DPOs rocks from there.

                                                           

[bitmarket]

@bitmarket

I sense you might be a direct response copywriter? Or involved in internet marketing in some way? I've been in that industry from the (almost) beginning. I'm friends with Yanik Silver and I've done copy for Neil Strauss a few times.

Something I've been trying to get across to the BitShares team is the importance of the language they use when talking to specific demographics. The language that will get bitcoiners excited is completely different than the language that will get mom and dad excited.

I did an AMA in /r/BitcoinMarkets/ on Monday and the main takeaway for me (as a copywriter / IMer) was how receptive they were when I framed BitShares X as a "financial experiment". It completely blasted past their psychological barriers. The people who frequent /r/BitcoinMarket are some of the most jaded cynical people you'll ever meet and yet they seemed completely open to the idea.

Based on the feedback from the AMA I've been toying with the slogan "The Greatest Financial Experiment Since Bitcoin" as a hook targeted at typical bitcoin adopters. Framing BitShares X as a financial experiment automatically dismisses it as a threat. Suddenly it's the same as bitcoin. An all new fascinating experiment they can get excited about all over again.

If bitcoiners see BitShares an innovative financial experiment they'll automatically think "I can get in on this early and become rich like the early bitcoiners" AND "it's just an experiment, not a hyped up scam coin so it's at least worth paying attention to". It completely gets past their bullshit detector.

Some of the AMA comments:

I've been following this since the days of PTS - still can't say I fully understand, but I'm glad to see progress because I think it's a fascinating experiment.

I really think BTSX is an awesome experiment!

There were many other comments along the lines of "awesome experiment" and "fascinating".

You picked me like a dirty nose.    I know Yanik, and know of Neil.  I know lots of IM'ers and a few of the PUA world. Mystery's camp specifically.

I liked your framing of the financical experiment.   I might just steal that one.

[santaclause102]

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

Not with one word would I mention anything that has to do with getting rich or anything of that sort!! This will only cause greed and divide and make the DPOS / BitShares effort about money making where it is about the ideals of freedom you talk about all day!

Make it about the idea and ideals of Bitcoin and how it can be reached with DPOS / BitShares. Strip yourself and the Bitshares idea from anything material / money / rich. If it is about the ideal people are more incentivized to talk neutrally about the technology.

I dont know how that is that different to you (all here). To me anything that sounds like "get rich quick" sounds fishy and like a scam. Make it about the ideals and the technology and not about money! People will realize the rest by themselves. Ppl are always happy when they can realize something themselves, they end up being more convinced when they realized it themselves.

In that sense I am also a big fan of the company analogy. It totally makes sense since crypto currencies are like money /payment networks issued by companies/individuals. There is no state that restricts it to one currency in crypto currency. It is easily to come to the conclusion that DPOs rocks from there.

edit: I'd slightly change it to: If anything associated with making money on a speculative investment is used as an argument towards technical guys (non bitcoiners) it should be very subtle and not direct.
For the masses an argument by I3 that price appreciation is an argument to get in does not make sense. Mainstream media are incentivized enough to make it a big story about money and greed if you give them good arguments and a good story.   

[luckybit]

Imagine a hacker (or team) reading this post, decides to get a jump on breaking DPOS (at least in theory).  Then as soon as the official challenge is announced, "Voila. We've broken it (already)!".  What effect would that have?

A positive effect because then we'd discover how easy it is to break DPoS. In my opinion that isn't likely to happen unless there is a bug in the code or flaw in the implementation. Prior to announcing the test the code should be fully hardened, debugged, tested, so that there aren't any easy attacks like that.

It's more likely that many theoretical attacks will be found but they shouldn't all be ranked the same. The attacks which are of greatest risk are the ones which are easiest to execute in terms of effort or cost as well as being the most damaging. So if an attack is relatively difficult to execute while also not being very damaging then it's very low risk, not much of a threat, and it shouldn't be worried about.

The purpose of a bounty like this is to reveal the list of threats. Often we have no way to determine all the possible attacks so by doing this we could learn them. I think DPoS is very well designed and couldn't find many attacks but when enough eyes look at the code, enough people look for creative ways to break it, it's possible someone will find some theoretical attack on it and that would be a good thing because it allows DPoS to grow stronger.

 

[luckybit]

My opinion is Bitshares X is not ready for just yet. Some changes have to be made prior to this.

The main attack Bitshares X is vulnerable to is DDOS but there could be others. Before setting up a test like this I would suggest that delegates prepare themselves and I would suggest that Bytemaster allow shareholders to vote on the level of decentralization so that if DDOS takes place we can scale up the number of delegates at near real time.

If the goal is to test the protocol itself then the range of attacks should be specified. There are a lot of theoretical attacks to DPoS but out of all of them the main attacks all involve targeting the delegates. I would suggest that the Bitshares team specifically exclude DDOS attacks from the test so that the focus can be on the technical and design aspects of the protocol itself.

The attackers should be asked to look for bugs in the code, problems in the design of the protocol, or problems in the implementation. Theoretical attacks, do they count? How do we measure the risk of the attack? In my opinion if the attack could do catastrophic damage to Bitshares X while also being relatively easy to execute it should be ranked higher on the list to receive the bounty.

[Method-X]

Another point worth mentioning is when discussing BitShares with crypto friends, it's best to concede that bitcoin will probably become the new gold standard and bitshares may very well replace the financial system. And therefore the two are not truly at odds with each other. From there, go on to explain what the BitShares X experiment is trying to accomplish with BitAssets.

In my experience, people are much more defensive when it comes to DPoS. They seem to think BitAssets are interesting and consider DPoS a thread because it's not plugged into bitcoins blockchain. They're stuck in the one blockchain to rule them all paradigm.

[donkeypong]

How about "try it and see if you like it" or "try it and find me a flaw". Get 'em started and they won't go back.

[tonyk]

Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

I agree, there were a lot of us there... But even when I talk about BitShares X to crypto friends and try to "convince" them based on features, they just roll their eyes and dismiss it as "just another alt". When I talk about it as a really cool experiment all of a sudden they're interested.

Good to hear that!
My attempts  end with 'roll their eyes'  90% of the time... I will try this approach then.

[Riverhead]

The experiment angle addresses an important other psychological trigger or perhaps just a general human condition.

Essentially no one likes to be preached at or condescended to. Parading out a brand new, relatively unproven, technology as the second coming and telling them how their antiquated technology is dead straight away creates an us versus them situation. A situation bitcoiners have been combating for years and their defenses are well honed.

Framing it as an experiment takes us off our high horse and puts us at a peer level; just another fellow crypto pioneer trying new things to buck the system...won't you come along for the ride?

[Method-X]

Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

I agree, there were a lot of us there... But even when I talk about BitShares X to crypto friends and try to "convince" them based on features, they just roll their eyes and dismiss it as "just another alt". When I talk about it as a really cool experiment all of a sudden they're interested.

[Method-X]

I believe you are 100% right in your selling points for that audience and you have good points for the different market segments you mentioned.  I studied copywriting for awhile, very fascinating stuff.  Never got to do much of it but I respect it very much.  Every hear of Bob Bly and/or read that scientific advertising book?  Probably I would guess.

One of the first books I ever read on copy was Scientific Advertising. Absolute classic!

[Riverhead]

Imagine a hacker (or team) reading this post, decides to get a jump on breaking DPOS (at least in theory).  Then as soon as the official challenge is announced, "Voila. We've broken it (already)!".  What effect would that have?

They'd win the bounty. Broken is broken.

[tonyk]

@bitmarket

I sense you might be a direct response copywriter? Or involved in internet marketing in some way? I've been in that industry from the (almost) beginning. I'm friends with Yanik Silver and I've done copy for Neil Strauss a few times.

Something I've been trying to get across to the BitShares team is the importance of the language they use when talking to specific demographics. The language that will get bitcoiners excited is completely different than the language that will get mom and dad excited.

I did an AMA in /r/BitcoinMarkets/ on Monday and the main takeaway for me (as a copywriter / IMer) was how receptive they were when I framed BitShares X as a "financial experiment". It completely blasted past their psychological barriers. The people who frequent /r/BitcoinMarket are some of the most jaded cynical people you'll ever meet and yet they seemed completely open to the idea.

Based on the feedback from the AMA I've been toying with the slogan "The Greatest Financial Experiment Since Bitcoin" as a hook targeted at typical bitcoin adopters. Framing BitShares X as a financial experiment automatically dismisses it as a threat. Suddenly it's the same as bitcoin. An all new fascinating experiment they can get excited about all over again.

If bitcoiners see BitShares an innovative financial experiment they'll automatically think "I can get in on this early and become rich like the early bitcoiners" AND "it's just an experiment, not a hyped up scam coin so it's at least worth paying attention to". It completely gets past their bullshit detector.

Some of the AMA comments:

I've been following this since the days of PTS - still can't say I fully understand, but I'm glad to see progress because I think it's a fascinating experiment.

I really think BTSX is an awesome experiment!

There were many other comments along the lines of "awesome experiment" and "fascinating".

Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

[GaltReport]

@bitmarket

I sense you might be a direct response copywriter? Or involved in internet marketing in some way? I've been in that industry from the (almost) beginning. I'm friends with Yanik Silver and I've done copy for Neil Strauss a few times.

Something I've been trying to get across to the BitShares team is the importance of the language they use when talking to specific demographics. The language that will get bitcoiners excited is completely different than the language that will get mom and dad excited.

I did an AMA in /r/BitcoinMarkets/ on Monday and the main takeaway for me (as a copywriter / IMer) was how receptive they were when I framed BitShares X as a "financial experiment". It completely blasted past their psychological barriers. The people who frequent /r/BitcoinMarket are some of the most jaded cynical people you'll ever meet and yet they seemed completely open to the idea.

Based on the feedback from the AMA I've been toying with the slogan "The Greatest Financial Experiment Since Bitcoin" as a hook targeted at typical bitcoin adopters. Framing BitShares X as a financial experiment automatically dismisses it as a threat. Suddenly it's the same as bitcoin. An all new fascinating experiment they can get excited about all over again.

If bitcoiners see BitShares an innovative financial experiment they'll automatically think "I can get in on this early and become rich like the early bitcoiners" AND "it's just an experiment, not a hyped up scam coin so it's at least worth paying attention to". It completely gets past their bullshit detector.

Some of the AMA comments:

I've been following this since the days of PTS - still can't say I fully understand, but I'm glad to see progress because I think it's a fascinating experiment.

I really think BTSX is an awesome experiment!

There were many other comments along the lines of "awesome experiment" and "fascinating".

I believe you are 100% right in your selling points for that audience and you have good points for the different market segments you mentioned.  I studied copywriting for awhile, very fascinating stuff.  Never got to do much of it but I respect it very much.  Every hear of Bob Bly and/or read that scientific advertising book?  Probably I would guess.

[Method-X]

@bitmarket

I sense you might be a direct response copywriter? Or involved in internet marketing in some way? I've been in that industry from the (almost) beginning. I'm friends with Yanik Silver and I've done copy for Neil Strauss a few times.

Something I've been trying to get across to the BitShares team is the importance of the language they use when talking to specific demographics. The language that will get bitcoiners excited is completely different than the language that will get mom and dad excited.

I did an AMA in /r/BitcoinMarkets/ on Monday and the main takeaway for me (as a copywriter / IMer) was how receptive they were when I framed BitShares X as a "financial experiment". It completely blasted past their psychological barriers. The people who frequent /r/BitcoinMarket are some of the most jaded cynical people you'll ever meet and yet they seemed completely open to the idea.

Based on the feedback from the AMA I've been toying with the slogan "The Greatest Financial Experiment Since Bitcoin" as a hook targeted at typical bitcoin adopters. Framing BitShares X as a financial experiment automatically dismisses it as a threat. Suddenly it's the same as bitcoin. An all new fascinating experiment they can get excited about all over again.

If bitcoiners see BitShares an innovative financial experiment they'll automatically think "I can get in on this early and become rich like the early bitcoiners" AND "it's just an experiment, not a hyped up scam coin so it's at least worth paying attention to". It completely gets past their bullshit detector.

Some of the AMA comments:

I've been following this since the days of PTS - still can't say I fully understand, but I'm glad to see progress because I think it's a fascinating experiment.

I really think BTSX is an awesome experiment!

There were many other comments along the lines of "awesome experiment" and "fascinating".

[bitmarket]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for! 

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate" 

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

Hi Stan,

I love that we are all working for the same cause and so i have no desire to hold you back from letting the world hear about bitAssets. I am just suggesting that with the entry and exit points of bitUSD being bitcoin, it is a tough sell at the moment.   And in order to get bitUSD on main exchanges and vizable the quickest way is to get bitcoiners on board.

M

[Stan]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for! 

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate" 

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

[GaltReport]

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

And there was me thinking your motivation for creating Bitshares was to make the State irrelevant...

Edit: I suppose all good deeds need to be rewarded

Shouldn't the people who make the state irrelevant get rich? 

I took BM's comment in the context of the question about how to market this to bitcoin champions rather than a statement reflecting the entirety of his motives.  From what I've read of his views, his motivations are clearly beyond just the financial opportunity.

[Method-X]

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

And there was me thinking your motivation for creating Bitshares was to make the State irrelevant...

Edit: I suppose all good deeds need to be rewarded

Shouldn't the people who make the state irrelevant get rich? 

[speedy]

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

And there was me thinking your motivation for creating Bitshares was to make the State irrelevant...

Edit: I suppose all good deeds need to be rewarded

[tonyk]

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

The same line of though make me hate the "I killed the bank" slogan...

[bytemaster]

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

[svk]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   Let me explain.

Will bitcoin ever hardfork to DPOS.   Well the answer is, if they are smart.... the truth is, getting consensus on that will be very difficult.  IT may happen. It may not.   But I sure as hell am going to mention the possibility of it happening right up front in every conversation I have with a bitcoiner.  Why?  Because I have been a marketer for 15 years and I know that the majority of people have 2 massive psychological incentives to keep a closed mind about the validity of DPOS.

1. They have been telling their friends for years the bitcoin is the shit and it even if another crypto came along and surpassed it, then most would have to admit they were wrong to a degree.  Not many bitcoiners give themselves the out that "crypto will be king" instead of "bitcoin will be king."

2. Most people in bitcoin are not wealthy.   Bitcoin is their chance to make big money.  They hang on to it with desperation. 

As a result of these two powerful psychological drivers, most people in crypto approach new things outside of bitcoin with a very closed mind.  If we can alleviate these concerns, then they may just have their mind open enough for long enough to listen and get enthusiastic about it.

It is interesting to note that the biggest bitcoin "celebrity" to endorse DPOS is a savant. Vitalik has near immunity from psychological triggers.    And then even though he has all that clout with his team, he still has trouble convincing them DPOS is the shit because of their psychological triggers.

Yourself, Dan and Brian, all reported experiencing that exact resistance when speaking to most people.   I think you guys knew why (Dan said so explicitly), you just didn't know how to fix it.   

The way to fix it is to explain that neither of these things are being threatened by your new idea..... in fact.... these new ideas you are about to introduce to them is very much aligned with their goals of being right(1) and rich(2).

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

Instead the comments will hopefully read, "This could be the coolest thing for bitcoin since Satoshi."  "DPOS could be the killer feature to send Bitcoin to the moon", etc.

If you guys do that then, I think we will get a great result from this video.

As for all of your other points I agree.  If we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and begin the conversation with why Bitcoin is dead, then the superiority of the technology will slowly but surely win out eventually.  But if we are smart...  it will happen a lot faster.

I like the way you think,

[bitmarket]

Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   Let me explain.

Will bitcoin ever hardfork to DPOS.   Well the answer is, if they are smart.... the truth is, getting consensus on that will be very difficult.  IT may happen. It may not.   But I sure as hell am going to mention the possibility of it happening right up front in every conversation I have with a bitcoiner.  Why?  Because I have been a marketer for 15 years and I know that the majority of people have 2 massive psychological incentives to keep a closed mind about the validity of DPOS.

1. They have been telling their friends for years the bitcoin is the shit and it even if another crypto came along and surpassed it, then most would have to admit they were wrong to a degree.  Not many bitcoiners give themselves the out that "crypto will be king" instead of "bitcoin will be king."

2. Most people in bitcoin are not wealthy.   Bitcoin is their chance to make big money.  They hang on to it with desperation. 

As a result of these two powerful psychological drivers, most people in crypto approach new things outside of bitcoin with a very closed mind.  If we can alleviate these concerns, then they may just have their mind open enough for long enough to listen and get enthusiastic about it.

It is interesting to note that the biggest bitcoin "celebrity" to endorse DPOS is a savant. Vitalik has near immunity from psychological triggers.    And then even though he has all that clout with his team, he still has trouble convincing them DPOS is the shit because of their psychological triggers.

Yourself, Dan and Brian, all reported experiencing that exact resistance when speaking to most people.   I think you guys knew why (Dan said so explicitly), you just didn't know how to fix it.   

The way to fix it is to explain that neither of these things are being threatened by your new idea..... in fact.... these new ideas you are about to introduce to them is very much aligned with their goals of being right(1) and rich(2).

Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

Instead the comments will hopefully read, "This could be the coolest thing for bitcoin since Satoshi."  "DPOS could be the killer feature to send Bitcoin to the moon", etc.

If you guys do that then, I think we will get a great result from this video.

As for all of your other points I agree.  If we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and begin the conversation with why Bitcoin is dead, then the superiority of the technology will slowly but surely win out eventually.  But if we are smart...  it will happen a lot faster.

[particlewave]

Imagine a hacker (or team) reading this post, decides to get a jump on breaking DPOS (at least in theory).  Then as soon as the official challenge is announced, "Voila. We've broken it (already)!".  What effect would that have?

[donkeypong]

I thought Bitmarket's idea was awesome, even if it may need more thought. That what the forum is for. Kudos for checking with the community first and glad you got some useful feedback. Overall, I tend to agree with Stan's post that there is a huge potential to bring in outside people. There also are a lot of dying/stagnating cryptocoins out there, and we've already seen a healthy migration of people from other communities coming here. Some are defecting; others are trying this out in addition to their other pursuits, which is a great way to start out until you fully understand and trust what's going on here.

The potential here is much bigger than the people we can peel from Bitcoin. As someone posted elsewhere (and I don't have time to find that quote) BitShares IS the next big thing. Not only in crypto, but in finance, and in peer-to-peer commerce. If we can get some effective on-ramps to people acquiring BTSX and BitUSD, maybe directly through fiat, then (you didn't hear it from me) who needs Bitcoin?

That said, I support Bitmarket's efforts to encourage Bitcoiners to come here. DPOS is not the sexiest feature here, in my opinion, and even though it is an incredible innovation that makes all this possible, I'm not sure that would be my choice of bait. But I love the idea of a PR-grabbing bounty.

How about bounties for:

1) someone to create a the best BitUSD wallet app for mobile?
2) someone to create a the best BitUSD checkout API?
3) whichever merchant has the highest BitUSD sales volume?

Let's jumpstart this ecosystem and stimulate demand for BitUSD. That is the best way forward.

[BldSwtTrs]

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Nice analysis, but I see a different path to success than working toward getting BitCoin to switch to DPOS.

Here’s my reasoning:

1.  Bitcoin will never adopt DPOS.

Lets face it, Bitcoin has become first and foremost a business designed to make money for miners.  Those who run bitcoin are miners, not BTC holders.  Miners have erected a barrier to entry they won’t give up - the need for huge warehouses full of global warming hardware.  This is really no different than how banksters use captive regulators to erect barriers to entry for their competitors.  BTC miners' competitive edge is their Darwinian ability to win a global warming device arms race.  If miners adopt DPOS, they lose that competitive edge to others better suited to compete in the new arena.  Under DPOS, people skilled at attracting voters would have the advantage.  It’s like asking soccer players to deliberately change the rules for who gets the World Cup to be a chess match instead of an athletic tournament.  A different skill set is required and athletes are unlikely to win a chess competition.  So they will keep the rules set to require physical skills so they can continue to win as long as possible.

2. We don’t want Bitcoin to adopt DPOS.

This is just acknowledging our fiduciary duty to the BitShares community.  Unless a BTC upgrade honors PTS/AGS (fat chance) it would not be in the interest of BitShares supporters to have Bitcoin adopt one of our killer competitive edges.  It is in our supporters' best interest to use our edge to suck all of the wealth listed in coinmarketcap into something they own, no? 

3.  There is little delta-value in marketing to the crypto community.

Those who are technically objective will find us all by themselves.  Those who are blindly loyal to a crypto tribe will sink or swim with that tribe (while their wealth migrates to us without them).  This is an acceptable result. 

4.  The network effect of being #1 is a fleeting advantage. 

Just like every point of sale solution accepts every major credit card, they will soon accept every major crypto currency.  No merchant wants to host multiple point of sale systems.  So shopping cart providers and point of sale device providers and mobile device payment app providers will all compete to be THE universal solution.  That means including all the major cryptos and adding value to abstract away their quirks.  BitShares will be in the mix.  End of Bitcoin’s biggest advantage.

5.  Bitcoin doesn’t have any other advantages. 

Bitcoin is #1 because it has been #1.  When that ceases to be an advantage, there is no other reason for it to remain in the top tier at all.   It will go the way of the buggy whip and the phone booth.  And so will its clones.

6.  Bitcoin is just a checking account in a new financial services industry.

Look at the percentage of liquid global wealth that is currently sitting in checking accounts. One percent? Right now 99% of the liquid wealth that wants to escape the corrupt global system is sitting in crypto checking!  But when new services that flesh out the crypto financial system with everything from passbook savings to full service brokerages, how much of that wealth do you think will remain in volatile interest-free checking?  That giant sucking sound you hear is 6 billion dollars worth of current crypto wealth flowing to where it can get a better diversified mix of stability and yield.  Bitcoin will represent only a few percent of the crypto market cap within 18 months.

7.  That giant sucking sound is just a trickle compared to what’s coming.

As big as the flow out of Bitcoin will be, the flow out of the corrupt global financial system will dwarf it.  People are waking up and want out.  Maybe only 1% will wake up until we have a few more train wrecks like Cyprus, Lehman, Iceland, Argentina and MF Global, but such events are currently cueued up like inbound planes at a busy airport.  That 1% will be enough.  And when that 1% hits Google looking for “Bitcoin” they are going to hit our new educational funnels that will make sure they are well trained to understand that Bitcoin is just their interim checking account.  All of that new traffic will then sort itself out into all the financial services that the newcomers are used to.  Bitcoin will get a similar percentage to what currently sits in consumer checking accounts — until people learn that their savings and brokerage accounts do checking better than Bitcoin!

So we should focus on teaching these truths to newcomers fleeing the current system. 

The rest will be history.

Gold pay no yield either, yet its market cap is about 6 trillion USD.

I think both Bitcoin and BTSX have great future, I don't see them as competitors. Bitcoin will be the new gold standard, BitshareX the new banking system.

[fluxer555]

Historic post, Stan.

[xeroc]

</amen>

[Stan]

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Nice analysis, but I see a different path to success than working toward getting BitCoin to switch to DPOS.

Here’s my reasoning:

1.  Bitcoin will never adopt DPOS.

Lets face it, Bitcoin has become first and foremost a business designed to make money for miners.  Those who run bitcoin are miners, not BTC holders.  Miners have erected a barrier to entry they won’t give up - the need for huge warehouses full of global warming hardware.  This is really no different than how banksters use captive regulators to erect barriers to entry for their competitors.  BTC miners' competitive edge is their Darwinian ability to win a global warming device arms race.  If miners adopt DPOS, they lose that competitive edge to others better suited to compete in the new arena.  Under DPOS, people skilled at attracting voters would have the advantage.  It’s like asking soccer players to deliberately change the rules for who gets the World Cup to be a chess match instead of an athletic tournament.  A different skill set is required and athletes are unlikely to win a chess competition.  So they will keep the rules set to require physical skills so they can continue to win as long as possible.

2. We don’t want Bitcoin to adopt DPOS.

This is just acknowledging our fiduciary duty to the BitShares community.  Unless a BTC upgrade honors PTS/AGS (fat chance) it would not be in the interest of BitShares supporters to have Bitcoin adopt one of our killer competitive edges.  It is in our supporters' best interest to use our edge to suck all of the wealth listed in coinmarketcap into something they own, no? 

3.  There is little delta-value in marketing to the crypto community.

Those who are technically objective will find us all by themselves.  Those who are blindly loyal to a crypto tribe will sink or swim with that tribe (while their wealth migrates to us without them).  This is an acceptable result. 

4.  The network effect of being #1 is a fleeting advantage. 

Just like every point of sale solution accepts every major credit card, they will soon accept every major crypto currency.  No merchant wants to host multiple point of sale systems.  So shopping cart providers and point of sale device providers and mobile device payment app providers will all compete to be THE universal solution.  That means including all the major cryptos and adding value to abstract away their quirks.  BitShares will be in the mix.  End of Bitcoin’s biggest advantage.

5.  Bitcoin doesn’t have any other advantages. 

Bitcoin is #1 because it has been #1.  When that ceases to be an advantage, there is no other reason for it to remain in the top tier at all.   It will go the way of the buggy whip and the phone booth.  And so will its clones.

6.  Bitcoin is just a checking account in a new financial services industry.

Look at the percentage of liquid global wealth that is currently sitting in checking accounts. One percent? Right now 99% of the liquid wealth that wants to escape the corrupt global system is sitting in crypto checking!  But when new services that flesh out the crypto financial system with everything from passbook savings to full service brokerages, how much of that wealth do you think will remain in volatile interest-free checking?  That giant sucking sound you hear is 6 billion dollars worth of current crypto wealth flowing to where it can get a better diversified mix of stability and yield.  Bitcoin will represent only a few percent of the crypto market cap within 18 months.

7.  That giant sucking sound is just a trickle compared to what’s coming.

As big as the flow out of Bitcoin will be, the flow out of the corrupt global financial system will dwarf it.  People are waking up and want out.  Maybe only 1% will wake up until we have a few more train wrecks like Cyprus, Lehman, Iceland, Argentina and MF Global, but such events are currently cueued up like inbound planes at a busy airport.  That 1% will be enough.  And when that 1% hits Google looking for “Bitcoin” they are going to hit our new educational funnels that will make sure they are well trained to understand that Bitcoin is just their interim checking account.  All of that new traffic will then sort itself out into all the financial services that the newcomers are used to.  Bitcoin will get a similar percentage to what currently sits in consumer checking accounts — until people learn that their savings and brokerage accounts do checking better than Bitcoin!

So we should focus on teaching these truths to newcomers fleeing the current system. 

The rest will be history.

[serejandmyself]

Yup. The language that gets early adopters hyped up and excited is completely different than the language that'll get the early majority excited.

Crypto geeks drool over:

• Whitepaper
• Delegated Proof of Stake
• Market pegged assets
• The word "experiment"
• Decentralized Autonomous Companies

Absolutly correct abouyt the langauge, ive done a research into succeful ANN topics on bitcointalk. And have some words that come out much more frequently then others

[bitmarket]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys.

 OK.  I think with the feedback I have received so far the bounty is a slippery little sucker to get right.

I really only wanted the bounty to grab headlines and clicks.   I think I have come up with another way to do the same without it.

Stay tuned.   I will get a video out in the next few days.  I will let you know and upvotes on reddit etc, will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
M

[bitrose]

I don't think it is an excellent idea.

In my opinion:

The bounty is $10,000

The yellow army: protect bitcoin , attack bitsharesx

The blue army: protect bitsharesx, attack bitcoin

Rule:Observe  the two currency's fluctuations , Who was the more negative who failed。
The winner will get the bounty.

[oldman]

This is an excellent idea.

Better to find any an all vulnerabilities now when they can be addressed quickly and effectively under the auspices of a work in progress.

Much better than having someone discover an attack vector at a $2bn cap and cause real mischief.

By extension, I3/DacSun should really have a substantial open/rotating bounty to attract the whitehat crowd.

[bytemaster]

I would say that breaking DPOS requires some "metric" of break.  That offering a bounty on something that cannot be objectively measured is very risky, especially if it is high profile.   Granted the controversy may be good, but I suspect that the real result of this bounty is the generation of the most effective FUD arguments followed by demands for payout.

Step 1) Define the Attacker - their goals, financial resources, and use of violence.
Step 2) Ask if they can achieve their goals
Step 3) How does this compare to alternatives?

If the "attacker" is a major world government, then their weapon of choice will be exchanges, regulations, and laws, and packet filtering assuming they wanted to "shut it down".  If they wanted to "embrace, extend, and enslave" then they would simply launch a competitor, mandate its use, and use the media to end-run around the system.  Alternatively they would use the media to brainwash the masses into voting in delegates that implement the proposals the government wants.   

If the "attacker" is an individual or company in the market then they need to earn a profit from their attack.    This means having a competitor that will go up or having the ability to short BTSX outside the network.   

In this case the relevant question is: How permanent is their attack, and how much value was lost by the users.    With DPOS... temporary and NONE.  With POW... it would take much longer to hard fork because there is no built in consensus model (voting of BTC holders) to validate the proposed changes. 

The last category of attack is "privacy".... how much privacy is leaked by the users as a result of the consensus algorithm.   This is the biggest weakness of approval voting for DPOS because your unique voting choices can tie your transactions together.   We have things in place to mitigate this, but for maximum privacy you require large sets of users to vote on the same slate of delegates *or* wide variance/randomization of your votes across all of your transactions.

I think I have shown how POW can be easily attacked with only purchasing enough hash power to kill the margins on your competitors mining pools while subsidizing your own pool.   The government attacks on POW are identical (if not more abundant) with POW systems that depend upon specialized manufacturing.   IE: neither POW or DPOS changes how a government would attempt to attack the network.... DPOS just means there network is more agile and thus delegates are more protected against government intrusion than large centralized mining pools and manufactures.    Going after a delegate is not productive, going after a pool + hardware producer is.

My conclusion is that ultimately all systems are built on people agreeing to a set of principles / rules for making decisions.  DPOS is more flexible under more conditions and thus can respond to attacks quicker and recover faster because the rules (majority of shareholders vote) are clear and obvious.  POW on the other hand lacks this process.

The only way to attack the networks based upon principles and not software is propaganda aimed at changing the opinion of the masses as to what the true, fair, chain is or should become.   

Bitcoin has the principle:  POW rules and to some extent the Bitcoin Foundation is the government body for deciding on official hard forks. 
DPOS has the principle:  User shares rule, and their votes determine the delegates which replace the Bitcoin Foundation on deciding which hard forks to adopt.

Any other *attacks* you might find on the software level are merely bugs that can be resolved and not flaws in DPOS itself.   

[rysgc]

Well this can go a couple of ways, mainly:

• Someone will have a go at it with only the bounty in their minds
• Someone will have a go at it not caring for the bounty since the result will yield much larger results
• Someone will have a go at it and keeps failing

Let's hope for the third.

[GaltReport]

This is ok if we write a proper whitepaper first and make the bounty about breaking the protocol.
We need a separate bug bounty for implementation bugs which is *not* ready for huge public bounty.

What do you consider to be the "protocol"?

The rules that govern the system.

Okay, I can see how this might work out as toast describes with a white paper and making it clear it's not trying to break the implementation.

[Brent.Allsop]

7. One by one, they will come until the call in the bitcoin community is 50% or more and they will hardfork bitcoin to DPOS. That will be great for Bitcoin and bitshares and by extension humanity.

Even IF it was possible to achieve a 50% consensus, what good would that do the people trying to make the decisions?  Even if you had %60 or more, again, how would anyone know?  Let us say you got enough people together to somehow vote their Bitcoins, and were able to achieve a 75% consensus of all Bitcoins for converting away from mining, and prove to everyone you had achieved such.  (Good luck with all that!!)  The rest of them would be lost, for who knows what reasons,  to some alt coin that is still mined, like Litecoin, again, causing a crash of Bitcoin valuations - end of Bitcoin's significance, just like the split in the ripple community devastated ripple.  These types of splitting problems, and so many competing Alt coins, are the criticle problems most holding things back.

My point is that the crypto currency community that first solves these kinds of problems, and is able to amplify the wisdom of all the holders of the currency, and can build and rigorously measure significant amounts of consensus, make lightning fast decisions, like you seem to think they will be able to achieve, and if the people making such decisions can know, quantitatively, how much consensus they do or don't have, in real time, and what is required to achieve near unanimous consensus, without loosing anyone, THAT is the currency that will blow away all other currencies, and finally pull in all the Big institutions, who then know their desires would be heard, and so on.

Oh, and did I mention that modern leaderless governance, consensus building, amplification of the wisdom of the crowd systems like those being developed at Canonizer.com are capable of doing all this, with ease?

In my opinion, good leaderless hon bureaucratic Governance is what will, in the end, determine the winning crypyto currency, and only with that will you get the rest of the world.

[Method-X]

This is ok if we write a proper whitepaper first and make the bounty about breaking the protocol.
We need a separate bug bounty for implementation bugs which is *not* ready for huge public bounty.

What do you consider to be the "protocol"?

The rules that govern the system.

[GaltReport]

This is ok if we write a proper whitepaper first and make the bounty about breaking the protocol.
We need a separate bug bounty for implementation bugs which is *not* ready for huge public bounty.

What do you consider to be the "protocol"?

[Brent.Allsop]

I like this idea, but you need to work out many of the details, first, otherwise it could be a desasters.

Say someone spends an inordinate amount of time and money, they manage to find a minor bug, like determinging who is voting for which deligates?  Which should not be awareded the rewared, but wonder if the y go to court, or worse, over such a disagreement?

Also, who are the devs which must do the matching?

Who / how is the decision going to be made about whether the award should be granted, or not?

Any partial awards?

If all of the above can be answered, definitively, so there is absolutely no possible misinterpretation by anyone, and if all the "devs" can match the entire funds provided by bitmarket, I would be willing to match an addition 10 BTC contributed by "devs".

Oh, and to the guy that volunteered to put up 1 million bitUSD for the prize, that sure is gracious of you, that will surely help this cause, too.  Or were you just volunerring someone elses $ million??

[Method-X]

Fellow marketer and copywriter here; couldn't agree with you more. We did an AMA in /r/BitcoinMarkets yesterday and it was a huge success. There is a LOT of interest in this project. BitShares has a way of capturing the imagination of crypto geeks in the same way Bitcoin did.

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

Yup. The language that gets early adopters hyped up and excited is completely different than the language that'll get the early majority excited.

Crypto geeks drool over:

• Whitepaper
• Delegated Proof of Stake
• Market pegged assets
• The word "experiment"
• Decentralized Autonomous Companies

Right now we're the innovators and before we can talk to the early majority, we need to get the early adopters on board. We need to capture the imagination of the early adopters. Fortunately, BitShares is in a pretty damn good position to do this. We've got the technology and the innovative vision that'll capture the imaginations of old school crypto nerds like nothing else I'm aware of.

3. bitUSD may be very useful in getting the early masses on board but it has little appeal to early adoptors, innovators and bitcoin royalty. We should not focus marketing efforts on bitUSD at this time.

I disagree. BitAssets are exactly what brought me on board.

--------------------

As a long time copywriter, I would bill this as "the greatest experiment since bitcoin" and mostly focus on the market pegged assets. That said, a DPoS bounty is a fantastic publicity stunt. Do you want the hacker to disrupt the BitShares X blockchain to claim the bounty? Or do you want them to find a theoretical vulnerability without testing it. Attacking DPoS would likely cost much more than $10,000 or even $100,000 so I see little motivation.

[Gentso1]

If it works it will be a stroke of genius, if it fails it will be a death blow.If bm,toast and alt say it can't be broken then that is enough to convince me and it may be a worthy enough for everyone to get behind. The bounty is large enough that it will bring a fair amount of attention to bitshares.

[robrigo]

IMO, the OP is afraid of success of DPOS , His whole investment in BTC is in the verge of collapse. That is the reason why he wants to break the DPOS mania. Some FUD ers , but I3 has been working and focus on security issues so $10,000 is worth a try but that is just a SMALL and CHEAP (concept) bounty compare to the rewards that is waiting for each DAC investor.

I think he is generally interested in the security of DPOS myself: http://www.successcouncil.com/post.php?info=Max-Wrights-thoughts-on-the-Security-threats-of-Delegated-Proof-of-Stake-and-Bitshares

So not FUD, but rather a great marketing tactic. And I am agreed with toast that the whitepapers should be released before this bounty goes live.

[CLains]

Harsh truths from 20/20 vision. Cliques is the perfect word.

Perfection won't come without creativity of a thousand evil eyeballs, seek it out

[jwiz168]

IMO, the OP is afraid of success of DPOS , His whole investment in BTC is in the verge of collapse. That is the reason why he wants to break the DPOS mania. Some FUD ers , but I3 has been working and focus on security issues so $10,000 is worth a try but that is just a SMALL and CHEAP (concept) bounty compare to the rewards that is waiting for each DAC investor.

[eagleeye]

This is ok if we write a proper whitepaper first and make the bounty about breaking the protocol.
We need a separate bug bounty for implementation bugs which is *not* ready for huge public bounty.

I agree with toast.  We need to not break the online market but instead have the protocols tested.  Breaking the bitUSD market could do major damage to bitshares (dont know in the long term though)

[toast]

This is ok if we write a proper whitepaper first and make the bounty about breaking the protocol.
We need a separate bug bounty for implementation bugs which is *not* ready for huge public bounty.

[onceuponatime]

nice idea
 

what about 1 million bitUSD bounty?

Doesn't make sense. If DPOS is broken then bitUSD is valueless.

Kinda what I was thinking...nice marketing stunt...but what if it breaks, very publicly?  Maybe something a little less public like using the money for paying security bug bounties?

I disagree . Make it VERY public, but with a limited duration (like one month). At the end of the month, with all the publicity plus the new found confidence in our system, WATCH BTSX FLYING PAST THE MOON - on the way to Mars.

[GaltReport]

nice idea
 

what about 1 million bitUSD bounty?

Doesn't make sense. If DPOS is broken then bitUSD is valueless.

Kinda what I was thinking...nice marketing stunt...but what if it breaks, very publicly?  Maybe something a little less public like using the money for paying security bug bounties?

[onceuponatime]

nice idea
 

what about 1 million bitUSD bounty?

Doesn't make sense. If DPOS is broken then bitUSD is valueless.

[onceuponatime]

I'll put up one BTC.

[liondani]

nice idea
 

what about 1 million bitUSD bounty?

[eagleeye]

Most of this post belongs in the marketing forum, but because I am seeking contributors to a bounty to break DPOS, I thought it belongs here.

My name is Max Wright and I have been following Bytemaster since before Invictus' first newsletter. My skills are in marketing and not tech and as such have watched from afar as the tech geniuses behind bitshares do their thing... very well I might add.

But after hanging out with the team in Saint Martin and working with Brian and BM for the last month, I have drawn some conclusions and here they are for that they are worth.   Feedback is appreciated.

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

2. Bitcoin works in cliques, and most bitcoiners have their favorite and trusted sources. What I call bitcoin royalty. Get them and the rest follow. Vitalik was a great start, and in the following months you will see many of his followers pay attention to btsx.  I believe we should invest our resources here first.

3. bitUSD may be very useful in getting the early masses on board but it has little appeal to early adoptors, innovators and bitcoin royalty. We should not focus marketing efforts on bitUSD at this time.

4. TITAN is cool, but has some potential drawbacks. I think it is easy to send money to an incorrect party and it would be nice to not lead with a privacy thing which may attract unwanted govt attention which may slow us down. Further, bitcoiners have already jumped the hurdle of dealing with ugly addresses and QR codes and as I mentioned in point 1, I think we should only be interested in bitcoiners at the moment. If we had nothing else I would run with it, but we have gold so why bother.

5. I think DPOS is the killer feature (the gold) that will help us attract the bitcoin royalty and their followers.

6. When Bitcoiners understand that in 2014 the first half a billion dollars of fiat that chased bitcoin went to electricity and chip manufacturing companies instead of sending the price of their coins to the moon they will want a solution. When they realize DPOS is that solution, they will come.

7. One by one, they will come until the call in the bitcoin community is 50% or more and they will hardfork bitcoin to DPOS. That will be great for Bitcoin and bitshares and by extension humanity.

8. I have a plan and will execute it shortly to create videos and presentations to attract the bitcoin community with the lure of using DPOS to solve this problem.

9. As part of this video I am going to offer a bounty to anyone who can destroy/hack/break DPOS

10. Thoughts on that bounty.
A) I need to work with the tech team on the wording of the bounty. DPOS is easier to corrupt than POW, but that is accounted for by its easy to recover from features (voting, hardforks, etc).  How should this bounty be worded?

B) I am willing to match dollar for dollar up to 20btc (approx $10k) for this bounty. Because I do not have the tech knowledge to know how good DPOS really is, I will only match btc put up by the dev team.  If it is too early and DPOS is not ready for the big team just yet, then that is cool we can wait. But if it is, and the devs will put their money where their mouth is (and where their time has been) I will match up to 20btc.

C) The bigger the bounty, the bigger the press, the more eyeballs on bitshares. I hope you contribute to the bounty as well.   Remember if the bounty is not claimed in 12 months, then you get your btc back and nothing is lost.  If the bounty is paid and a fatal flaw is found in DPOS then you may have just saved yourself years of your life working on a flawed concept. How much is that worth to you? It is a no lose situation. I hope to get this bounty over $100,000

D) In order for the bounty to be believed it must be held in a public btc wallet. Pledges are not enough.   I suggest a multisig wallet, with myself, BM and a couple of other trusted community members as signers.

11. I would like to get this video and concept out soon so if you have ideas or can contribute setting up the bounty wallet, please post here quickly.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

Fantastic marketing tactic/ploy.

Should the money be in escrow?

[bitmarket]

Most of this post belongs in the marketing forum, but because I am seeking contributors to a bounty to break DPOS, I thought it belongs here.

My name is Max Wright and I have been following Bytemaster since before Invictus' first newsletter. My skills are in marketing and not tech and as such have watched from afar as the tech geniuses behind bitshares do their thing... very well I might add.

But after hanging out with the team in Saint Martin and working with Brian and BM for the last month, I have drawn some conclusions and here they are for that they are worth.   Feedback is appreciated.

1. Marketing to non-bitcoin enthusiasts at this early stage is a waste of time.  The entry and exit ramps to btsx require bitcoin and that is where we must focus.

2. Bitcoin works in cliques, and most bitcoiners have their favorite and trusted sources. What I call bitcoin royalty. Get them and the rest follow. Vitalik was a great start, and in the following months you will see many of his followers pay attention to btsx.  I believe we should invest our resources here first.

3. bitUSD may be very useful in getting the early masses on board but it has little appeal to early adoptors, innovators and bitcoin royalty. We should not focus marketing efforts on bitUSD at this time.

4. TITAN is cool, but has some potential drawbacks. I think it is easy to send money to an incorrect party and it would be nice to not lead with a privacy thing which may attract unwanted govt attention which may slow us down. Further, bitcoiners have already jumped the hurdle of dealing with ugly addresses and QR codes and as I mentioned in point 1, I think we should only be interested in bitcoiners at the moment. If we had nothing else I would run with it, but we have gold so why bother.

5. I think DPOS is the killer feature (the gold) that will help us attract the bitcoin royalty and their followers.

6. When Bitcoiners understand that in 2014 the first half a billion dollars of fiat that chased bitcoin went to electricity and chip manufacturing companies instead of sending the price of their coins to the moon they will want a solution. When they realize DPOS is that solution, they will come.

7. One by one, they will come until the call in the bitcoin community is 50% or more and they will hardfork bitcoin to DPOS. That will be great for Bitcoin and bitshares and by extension humanity.

8. I have a plan and will execute it shortly to create videos and presentations to attract the bitcoin community with the lure of using DPOS to solve this problem.

9. As part of this video I am going to offer a bounty to anyone who can destroy/hack/break DPOS

10. Thoughts on that bounty.
A) I need to work with the tech team on the wording of the bounty. DPOS is easier to corrupt than POW, but that is accounted for by its easy to recover from features (voting, hardforks, etc).  How should this bounty be worded?

B) I am willing to match dollar for dollar up to 20btc (approx $10k) for this bounty. Because I do not have the tech knowledge to know how good DPOS really is, I will only match btc put up by the dev team.  If it is too early and DPOS is not ready for the big team just yet, then that is cool we can wait. But if it is, and the devs will put their money where their mouth is (and where their time has been) I will match up to 20btc.

C) The bigger the bounty, the bigger the press, the more eyeballs on bitshares. I hope you contribute to the bounty as well.   Remember if the bounty is not claimed in 12 months, then you get your btc back and nothing is lost.  If the bounty is paid and a fatal flaw is found in DPOS then you may have just saved yourself years of your life working on a flawed concept. How much is that worth to you? It is a no lose situation. I hope to get this bounty over $100,000

D) In order for the bounty to be believed it must be held in a public btc wallet. Pledges are not enough.   I suggest a multisig wallet, with myself, BM and a couple of other trusted community members as signers.

11. I would like to get this video and concept out soon so if you have ideas or can contribute setting up the bounty wallet, please post here quickly.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.