Author Topic: I am putting up a $10,000 bounty to break DPOS.... Join me.  (Read 10837 times)

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Offline Method-X

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If you can't highlight your features then how are you supposed to capture the imagination? The only thing to distinguish one technology from another is the specs. If they feel it's "us against them" because they are too tribal to care about the technological innovation then you aren't going to capture them anyway.

If they are rational and objective then you show them that you can do stuff they can't do on their technology.  If they want to do what you can do then they'll have to switch.

I agree with most everything you say but keep in mind how you frame it. We can't come across as sitting on a high horse with our "superior technology". We need to go under their radar.

Offline luckybit

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Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for!  :)

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate"  :)

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

This is the sort of marketing campaign I think we need to use on Bitcoiners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Highlight specs.
Highlight features.
Hightlight everything that Bitcoin can't do.
Highlight everything that Bitshares X can do.

The commercial above exemplifies that approach. In our comments on forums we should highlight features that Bitcoin can't support or cannot do without a hardfork.

Bytemaster will have to reveal to us the sort of features Bitcoin could never do but I would think the 5% interest is among them.

I'm not in charge of the marketing campaign but my suggestion is we the users should start talking about the sorts of transactions we are doing, the ease at which we are making money, the shield from volatility. When there is a forum thread or time when Bitcoiners are complaining about the price crashing we should be the first to remind them about Bitshares X.

Look to the console wars to learn how marketing on the specs and feature sets can work. It typically works in favor of the consoles with the best specs, most games, best price, etc. So keep talking about how much money the Bitcoiners are losing because to a poor person there is no better marketing.

This may create an "us vs. them" mentality. We should seek to capture their imaginations instead of hard selling them on features.

If you can't highlight your features then how are you supposed to capture the imagination? The only thing to distinguish one technology from another is the specs. If they feel it's "us against them" because they are too tribal to care about the technological innovation then you aren't going to capture them anyway.

If they are rational and objective then you show them that you can do stuff they can't do on their technology.  If they want to do what you can do then they'll have to switch.
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Offline Method-X

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Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for!  :)

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate"  :)

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

This is the sort of marketing campaign I think we need to use on Bitcoiners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Highlight specs.
Highlight features.
Hightlight everything that Bitcoin can't do.
Highlight everything that Bitshares X can do.

The commercial above exemplifies that approach. In our comments on forums we should highlight features that Bitcoin can't support or cannot do without a hardfork.

Bytemaster will have to reveal to us the sort of features Bitcoin could never do but I would think the 5% interest is among them.

I'm not in charge of the marketing campaign but my suggestion is we the users should start talking about the sorts of transactions we are doing, the ease at which we are making money, the shield from volatility. When there is a forum thread or time when Bitcoiners are complaining about the price crashing we should be the first to remind them about Bitshares X.

Look to the console wars to learn how marketing on the specs and feature sets can work. It typically works in favor of the consoles with the best specs, most games, best price, etc. So keep talking about how much money the Bitcoiners are losing because to a poor person there is no better marketing.

This may create an "us vs. them" mentality. We should seek to capture their imaginations instead of hard selling them on features.

Offline luckybit

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Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   

Hi Max,

Totally agree (outside this "private" strategy discussion).  Framing it correctly for different audiences is what we need you silver tongued marketeers for!  :)

My only point was that there is more marketing hay to be made with newcomers than with those already in the industry.  We shouldn't be picking fights, but we shouldn't downplay that we are building the other 99% of the financial system - the part beyond checking that is complementary to Bitcoin.

That was the spin of my recent blog post "BitShares Savings joins Bitcoin Checking" here:  http://bitshares.org/bitshares-savings-joins-bitcoin-checking/

Sort of gives another meaning to the term "BitShares Check Mate"  :)

But considering the ultimate implications of a disruptive technology is also an important factor in crafting an optimum long term marketing playbook.  I think the world is ready to hear about bitAssets immediately.

This is the sort of marketing campaign I think we need to use on Bitcoiners: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nsBoqJ6s8

Highlight specs.
Highlight features.
Hightlight everything that Bitcoin can't do.
Highlight everything that Bitshares X can do.

The commercial above exemplifies that approach. In our comments on forums we should highlight features that Bitcoin can't support or cannot do without a hardfork.

Bytemaster will have to reveal to us the sort of features Bitcoin could never do but I would think the 5% interest is among them.

I'm not in charge of the marketing campaign but my suggestion is we the users should start talking about the sorts of transactions we are doing, the ease at which we are making money, the shield from volatility. When there is a forum thread or time when Bitcoiners are complaining about the price crashing we should be the first to remind them about Bitshares X.

Look to the console wars to learn how marketing on the specs and feature sets can work. It typically works in favor of the consoles with the best specs, most games, best price, etc. So keep talking about how much money the Bitcoiners are losing because to a poor person there is no better marketing.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 07:15:30 pm by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Hi Stan,

I dont disagree with anything you said.  Except that... it should not be said.   Let me explain.

Will bitcoin ever hardfork to DPOS.   Well the answer is, if they are smart.... the truth is, getting consensus on that will be very difficult.  IT may happen. It may not.   But I sure as hell am going to mention the possibility of it happening right up front in every conversation I have with a bitcoiner.  Why?  Because I have been a marketer for 15 years and I know that the majority of people have 2 massive psychological incentives to keep a closed mind about the validity of DPOS.

1. They have been telling their friends for years the bitcoin is the shit and it even if another crypto came along and surpassed it, then most would have to admit they were wrong to a degree.  Not many bitcoiners give themselves the out that "crypto will be king" instead of "bitcoin will be king."

2. Most people in bitcoin are not wealthy.   Bitcoin is their chance to make big money.  They hang on to it with desperation. 

As a result of these two powerful psychological drivers, most people in crypto approach new things outside of bitcoin with a very closed mind.  If we can alleviate these concerns, then they may just have their mind open enough for long enough to listen and get enthusiastic about it.

It is interesting to note that the biggest bitcoin "celebrity" to endorse DPOS is a savant. Vitalik has near immunity from psychological triggers.    And then even though he has all that clout with his team, he still has trouble convincing them DPOS is the shit because of their psychological triggers.

Yourself, Dan and Brian, all reported experiencing that exact resistance when speaking to most people.   I think you guys knew why (Dan said so explicitly), you just didn't know how to fix it.   

The way to fix it is to explain that neither of these things are being threatened by your new idea..... in fact.... these new ideas you are about to introduce to them is very much aligned with their goals of being right(1) and rich(2).
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Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

Instead the comments will hopefully read, "This could be the coolest thing for bitcoin since Satoshi."  "DPOS could be the killer feature to send Bitcoin to the moon", etc.

If you guys do that then, I think we will get a great result from this video.

As for all of your other points I agree.  If we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and begin the conversation with why Bitcoin is dead, then the superiority of the technology will slowly but surely win out eventually.  But if we are smart...  it will happen a lot faster.

Bitcoin is already being forked into Cooperative Proof of Stake. It is a waste of time to duplicate that effort because there is a competent developer already on that. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584719.0

Resources should be directed towards another objective which isn't already being worked on by a competent developer.

I do think you should highlight DPoS technology but the main thing is to show that DPoS can do things Bitcoin will never be able to do without a hard fork.
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Offline Method-X

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You picked me like a dirty nose.   :) I know Yanik, and know of Neil.  I know lots of IM'ers and a few of the PUA world. Mystery's camp specifically.

I liked your framing of the financical experiment.   I might just steal that one.

Add it to your swipe file friend  ;D

Offline santaclause102

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Quote from: tonyk
Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

I agree, there were a lot of us there... But even when I talk about BitShares X to crypto friends and try to "convince" them based on features, they just roll their eyes and dismiss it as "just another alt". When I talk about it as a really cool experiment all of a sudden they're interested.

The bounty should be targeted to the InfoSec community which is a different community from the general Bitcoin community. Specifically you would want to attract hackers.
...which would also attract developers.

Offline luckybit

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Quote from: tonyk
Just a word of advice. The AMA thread was pretty heavy on people already active/participating in BTSX. I hope the results are representative for the whole BTC community but just take them with a grain of salt.

I agree, there were a lot of us there... But even when I talk about BitShares X to crypto friends and try to "convince" them based on features, they just roll their eyes and dismiss it as "just another alt". When I talk about it as a really cool experiment all of a sudden they're interested.

The bounty should be targeted to the InfoSec community which is a different community from the general Bitcoin community. Specifically you would want to attract hackers.
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Offline xeroc

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Not with one word would I mention anything that has to do with getting rich or anything of that sort!! This will only cause greed and divide and make the DPOS / BitShares effort about money making where it is about the ideals of freedom you talk about all day!

Make it about the idea and ideals of Bitcoin and how it can be reached with DPOS / BitShares. Strip yourself and the Bitshares idea from anything material / money / rich. If it is about the ideal people are more incentivized to talk neutrally about the technology.

I dont know how that is that different to you (all here). To me anything that sounds like "get rich quick" sounds fishy and like a scam. Make it about the ideals and the technology and not about money! People will realize the rest by themselves. Ppl are always happy when they can realize something themselves, they end up being more convinced when they realized it themselves.

In that sense I am also a big fan of the company analogy. It totally makes sense since crypto currencies are like money /payment networks issued by companies/individuals. It is easily to come to the conclusion that DPOs rocks from there.

+5%    +5%     +5%     +5% +5%    +5%     +5%     +5% +5%    +5%     +5%     +5% +5%    +5%     +5%     +5%

Offline bitmarket

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@bitmarket

I sense you might be a direct response copywriter? Or involved in internet marketing in some way? I've been in that industry from the (almost) beginning. I'm friends with Yanik Silver and I've done copy for Neil Strauss a few times.

Something I've been trying to get across to the BitShares team is the importance of the language they use when talking to specific demographics. The language that will get bitcoiners excited is completely different than the language that will get mom and dad excited.

I did an AMA in /r/BitcoinMarkets/ on Monday and the main takeaway for me (as a copywriter / IMer) was how receptive they were when I framed BitShares X as a "financial experiment". It completely blasted past their psychological barriers. The people who frequent /r/BitcoinMarket are some of the most jaded cynical people you'll ever meet and yet they seemed completely open to the idea.

Based on the feedback from the AMA I've been toying with the slogan "The Greatest Financial Experiment Since Bitcoin" as a hook targeted at typical bitcoin adopters. Framing BitShares X as a financial experiment automatically dismisses it as a threat. Suddenly it's the same as bitcoin. An all new fascinating experiment they can get excited about all over again.

If bitcoiners see BitShares an innovative financial experiment they'll automatically think "I can get in on this early and become rich like the early bitcoiners" AND "it's just an experiment, not a hyped up scam coin so it's at least worth paying attention to". It completely gets past their bullshit detector.

Some of the AMA comments:

Quote
I've been following this since the days of PTS - still can't say I fully understand, but I'm glad to see progress because I think it's a fascinating experiment.

Quote
I really think BTSX is an awesome experiment!

There were many other comments along the lines of "awesome experiment" and "fascinating".

You picked me like a dirty nose.   :) I know Yanik, and know of Neil.  I know lots of IM'ers and a few of the PUA world. Mystery's camp specifically.

I liked your framing of the financical experiment.   I might just steal that one.
Host of BitShares.TV and Author of BitShares 101

Offline santaclause102

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Therefore when I release this video, it would be great if people in this community did not start conversations in the comments section saying, "bitsharess is gonna crush bitcoin." "POW is dead" "DPOS will render bitcoin obsolete"

I agree completely..... this isn't about crushing Bitcoin, it is about taking idea of Bitcoin to the next level and giving everyone who was late to the game an opportunity to get rich, and those who got rich from Bitcoin to get even richer.

Not with one word would I mention anything that has to do with getting rich or anything of that sort!! This will only cause greed and divide and make the DPOS / BitShares effort about money making where it is about the ideals of freedom you talk about all day!

Make it about the idea and ideals of Bitcoin and how it can be reached with DPOS / BitShares. Strip yourself and the Bitshares idea from anything material / money / rich. If it is about the ideal people are more incentivized to talk neutrally about the technology.

I dont know how that is that different to you (all here). To me anything that sounds like "get rich quick" sounds fishy and like a scam. Make it about the ideals and the technology and not about money! People will realize the rest by themselves. Ppl are always happy when they can realize something themselves, they end up being more convinced when they realized it themselves.

In that sense I am also a big fan of the company analogy. It totally makes sense since crypto currencies are like money /payment networks issued by companies/individuals. There is no state that restricts it to one currency in crypto currency. It is easily to come to the conclusion that DPOs rocks from there.

edit: I'd slightly change it to: If anything associated with making money on a speculative investment is used as an argument towards technical guys (non bitcoiners) it should be very subtle and not direct.
For the masses an argument by I3 that price appreciation is an argument to get in does not make sense. Mainstream media are incentivized enough to make it a big story about money and greed if you give them good arguments and a good story.   
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 02:34:48 pm by delulo »

Offline luckybit

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Imagine a hacker (or team) reading this post, decides to get a jump on breaking DPOS (at least in theory).  Then as soon as the official challenge is announced, "Voila. We've broken it (already)!".  What effect would that have?

A positive effect because then we'd discover how easy it is to break DPoS. In my opinion that isn't likely to happen unless there is a bug in the code or flaw in the implementation. Prior to announcing the test the code should be fully hardened, debugged, tested, so that there aren't any easy attacks like that.

It's more likely that many theoretical attacks will be found but they shouldn't all be ranked the same. The attacks which are of greatest risk are the ones which are easiest to execute in terms of effort or cost as well as being the most damaging. So if an attack is relatively difficult to execute while also not being very damaging then it's very low risk, not much of a threat, and it shouldn't be worried about.

The purpose of a bounty like this is to reveal the list of threats. Often we have no way to determine all the possible attacks so by doing this we could learn them. I think DPoS is very well designed and couldn't find many attacks but when enough eyes look at the code, enough people look for creative ways to break it, it's possible someone will find some theoretical attack on it and that would be a good thing because it allows DPoS to grow stronger.

 
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Offline luckybit

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My opinion is Bitshares X is not ready for just yet. Some changes have to be made prior to this.

The main attack Bitshares X is vulnerable to is DDOS but there could be others. Before setting up a test like this I would suggest that delegates prepare themselves and I would suggest that Bytemaster allow shareholders to vote on the level of decentralization so that if DDOS takes place we can scale up the number of delegates at near real time.

If the goal is to test the protocol itself then the range of attacks should be specified. There are a lot of theoretical attacks to DPoS but out of all of them the main attacks all involve targeting the delegates. I would suggest that the Bitshares team specifically exclude DDOS attacks from the test so that the focus can be on the technical and design aspects of the protocol itself.

The attackers should be asked to look for bugs in the code, problems in the design of the protocol, or problems in the implementation. Theoretical attacks, do they count? How do we measure the risk of the attack? In my opinion if the attack could do catastrophic damage to Bitshares X while also being relatively easy to execute it should be ranked higher on the list to receive the bounty.

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Offline Method-X

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Another point worth mentioning is when discussing BitShares with crypto friends, it's best to concede that bitcoin will probably become the new gold standard and bitshares may very well replace the financial system. And therefore the two are not truly at odds with each other. From there, go on to explain what the BitShares X experiment is trying to accomplish with BitAssets.

In my experience, people are much more defensive when it comes to DPoS. They seem to think BitAssets are interesting and consider DPoS a thread because it's not plugged into bitcoins blockchain. They're stuck in the one blockchain to rule them all paradigm.

Offline donkeypong

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How about "try it and see if you like it" or "try it and find me a flaw". Get 'em started and they won't go back.