Author Topic: Chess DAC  (Read 14445 times)

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Offline hpenvy

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How do you stop a person making large bets and good moves for side A, and then in the late game, make a single big bet and very bad move for side B, and cause side B to lose the game?

Remove the betting per move... you bet at the start of the game and then consume votes every move.

This approach would also be fun for heads-up limit poker.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 06:08:35 am by hpenvy »
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Offline bytemaster

How do you stop a person making large bets and good moves for side A, and then in the late game, make a single big bet and very bad move for side B, and cause side B to lose the game?

Remove the betting per move... you bet at the start of the game and then consume votes every move.
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Offline kokojie

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How do you stop a person making large bets and good moves for side A, and then in the late game, make a single big bet and very bad move for side B, and cause side B to lose the game?

Offline oco101

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I'd still ask that you guys go find a site that is moderately successful with betting on chess.  People don't like to bet on dry games without randomness.  That is why backgammon with the dice rolling has been a huge betting game for millenia (AFAIK) but outside of Central Park I personally have never heard of betting on chess.

http://millionairechess.com/

Offline callmeluc

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妥妥的好啊!

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Offline mf-tzo

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That guy is brilliant. I remember watching him a lot and was always astonished by him. Anyone knows why he disappeared though? I haven't seen him for many years..

Offline pgbit

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How to beat a few grandmasters at chess, at the same time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcKYg1mM35U

Offline gamey

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The initial post referenced an idea where you could vote on your opponents moves.  If you remove this capability (requiring some trust system in team integrity) then you have a regular chess game and none of that stuff applies.
As I said before, I believe that sabotaging the opposite side shouldn't be a good strategy. The reason is that strong players playing for the team can convince others to support their suggested moves. But we will see.

I don't follow this.  There is this whole bidding element.  Just letting people bid against each other will likely degenerate into something that is not playable, especially when being able to bid on opp's moves.  I suspect you would end up in spots where it is obvious the only way to win is to outbid.  So then it becomes a game of chicken ?  I wish I knew more about other games that have bidding systems. 

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BTW I thought the more advanced chess sites basically had copies of the chess programs running and were able to detect cheats ?  Does anyone know ?
Yes, but it uses a complicated statistical analysis that I'd rather not trust to the blockchain. What we will have if we allow humans and computers to team up is called "Advanced Chess"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess
I find it exciting enough to not worry about computer assistance.

Agreed

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I'd still ask that you guys go find a site that is moderately successful with betting on chess.
http://www.betfair.com/exchange/chess/market?id=1.114976736

I realize my wording was poor now in the sentence above, but your example is a standard booking site that puts up a line on chess.  I meant a site that you can bet on yourself playing.  Like backgammon/poker and perhaps other games.  If they don't exist in centralized fashion ...

I really don't want to be so negative, but I can't help it... errr
I speak for myself and only myself.

busygin

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The initial post referenced an idea where you could vote on your opponents moves.  If you remove this capability (requiring some trust system in team integrity) then you have a regular chess game and none of that stuff applies.
As I said before, I believe that sabotaging the opposite side shouldn't be a good strategy. The reason is that strong players playing for the team can convince others to support their suggested moves. But we will see.

Quote
BTW I thought the more advanced chess sites basically had copies of the chess programs running and were able to detect cheats ?  Does anyone know ?
Yes, but it uses a complicated statistical analysis that I'd rather not trust to the blockchain. What we will have if we allow humans and computers to team up is called "Advanced Chess"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess
I find it exciting enough to not worry about computer assistance.

Quote
I'd still ask that you guys go find a site that is moderately successful with betting on chess.
http://www.betfair.com/exchange/chess/market?id=1.114976736

Offline gamey

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This game will be crazy and may degenerate into something that isn't even fun to play.  I would definitely suggest that someone sit down with 4 people and play it using paper or a spreadsheet.  In fact, I might suggest someone hosts a game using available stuff on the net + google docs spreadsheet for bets.
Consultation games and games where the move is chosen by votes have been played for a long time and never produced anything "degenerate". For instance, there were games between cities, and games where a city played against a top grandmaster:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1007622

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One interesting thought is that none of the chess AI programs would work to cheat with, because of the opponents being able to move your pieces.
Nope. Moving pieces doesn't help much. Visualization is a problem only up to a certain level, masters and grandmasters can play entire games blindfolded, even multiple games at once.

The initial post referenced an idea where you could vote on your opponents moves.  If you remove this capability (requiring some trust system in team integrity) then you have a regular chess game and none of that stuff applies. 

BTW I thought the more advanced chess sites basically had copies of the chess programs running and were able to detect cheats ?  Does anyone know ?

I'd still ask that you guys go find a site that is moderately successful with betting on chess.  People don't like to bet on dry games without randomness.  That is why backgammon with the dice rolling has been a huge betting game for millenia (AFAIK) but outside of Central Park I personally have never heard of betting on chess.
I speak for myself and only myself.

busygin

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This game will be crazy and may degenerate into something that isn't even fun to play.  I would definitely suggest that someone sit down with 4 people and play it using paper or a spreadsheet.  In fact, I might suggest someone hosts a game using available stuff on the net + google docs spreadsheet for bets.
Consultation games and games where the move is chosen by votes have been played for a long time and never produced anything "degenerate". For instance, there were games between cities, and games where a city played against a top grandmaster:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscollection?cid=1007622

Quote
One interesting thought is that none of the chess AI programs would work to cheat with, because of the opponents being able to move your pieces.
Nope. Moving pieces doesn't help much. Visualization is a problem only up to a certain level, masters and grandmasters can play entire games blindfolded, even multiple games at once.


busygin

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I can see bot code being extremely guarded.
Not necessarily. Stockfish is considered the best chess engine now and it's open source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)
But it would be interesting to see if more people are attracted to work on chess algorithms whether open-source or closed-source model will win.

Offline Riverhead

1 - this would be boring. 2 - would 2 separate machines play alike?

Yes, I agree this would be VERY boring. However, if you had money on the game...

It doesn't really matter if two separate machines played alike. You're just basically being a human API. The Cheater wouldn't need to think, just mimic.

1. DAC-Player-1: Q-R4
2. Cheater in ChessMaster in another window or on another computer Q-R4
3. ChessMaster K-R4 Capture Queen
4. Cheater in DAC - K-R4 Capture Queen

Offline DACSunlimited

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Cool idea! :)

Offline serejandmyself

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The way you cheat is you have another chess program open, like ChessMaster, and you play what your opponent plays and then input as your move what ChestMaster counters with.


1 - this would be boring. 2 - would 2 seperate machines play alike?
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