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Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« on: September 22, 2014, 01:40:49 PM »

I was pondering if this should be posted in random, but I'll start it here for higher visibility... (mods, feel free to move)

Just finished reading "Zero To One" over the weekend.  I'd highly suggest it for anyone interested in how billionaires think, how BitShares nails all 7 questions that need to be answered in order to change the world, and if you've been looking for a clear articulation for why this project (and others like it) will revolutionize business in the future.  There's a plethora of strategies and truly thought-provoking questions that I know I'll be personally working on developing answers for.  Pretty quick read - only took about 4 hours.

...Do you believe in secrets?  I do.

http://zerotoonebook.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Zero-One-Notes-Start-Future-ebook/dp/B00J6YBOFQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411393003&sr=8-1&keywords=zero+to+one

Offline D4vegee

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Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 02:34:25 PM »
Awesome book. Have you read this yet? Opened my eyes to how those banksters operate :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flash-Boys-Michael-Lewis/dp/0241003636

Offline bytemaster

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 02:43:10 PM »
The article linked was very interesting and got me thinking about "natural monopolies" being beneficial for capital accumulation.

I think it is all a mater of perspective and in the end it all comes down to a single moral principle: don't initiate force against others.    Thus free competition will result in natural monopolies which allow capital accumulation and that is just the nature of good competition.   Unnatural monopolies are the ones that are dangerous (such as those granted to patent / copyright holders) or via regulation.  Anti-trust laws are also a major problem.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 03:59:28 PM »
The article linked was very interesting and got me thinking about "natural monopolies" being beneficial for capital accumulation.

I think it is all a mater of perspective and in the end it all comes down to a single moral principle: don't initiate force against others.    Thus free competition will result in natural monopolies which allow capital accumulation and that is just the nature of good competition.   Unnatural monopolies are the ones that are dangerous (such as those granted to patent / copyright holders) or via regulation.  Anti-trust laws are also a major problem.

YES!  These are all covered in the book. 

...He also talks about marketing, increasing your monopolistic advantage by orders of magnitude in comparison to the next competitor, and why it matters so much to build something that's never been done before instead of wasting time on incremental improvements (like what most of Silicon Valley has been doing since the dot com bubble burst).

Offline Method-X

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Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 04:22:24 PM »
The article linked was very interesting and got me thinking about "natural monopolies" being beneficial for capital accumulation.

I think it is all a mater of perspective and in the end it all comes down to a single moral principle: don't initiate force against others.    Thus free competition will result in natural monopolies which allow capital accumulation and that is just the nature of good competition.   Unnatural monopolies are the ones that are dangerous (such as those granted to patent / copyright holders) or via regulation.  Anti-trust laws are also a major problem.

YES!  These are all covered in the book. 

...He also talks about marketing, increasing your monopolistic advantage by orders of magnitude in comparison to the next competitor, and why it matters so much to build something that's never been done before instead of wasting time on incremental improvements (like what most of Silicon Valley has been doing since the dot com bubble burst).

Absolutely. It's about doing something different vs. adding features.

Offline bitsapphire

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 05:32:17 PM »
The article linked was very interesting and got me thinking about "natural monopolies" being beneficial for capital accumulation.

I think it is all a mater of perspective and in the end it all comes down to a single moral principle: don't initiate force against others.    Thus free competition will result in natural monopolies which allow capital accumulation and that is just the nature of good competition.   Unnatural monopolies are the ones that are dangerous (such as those granted to patent / copyright holders) or via regulation.  Anti-trust laws are also a major problem.

In what way would "natural" monopolies differ from "unnatural" one's in the real world?
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 05:36:01 PM »
The article linked was very interesting and got me thinking about "natural monopolies" being beneficial for capital accumulation.

I think it is all a mater of perspective and in the end it all comes down to a single moral principle: don't initiate force against others.    Thus free competition will result in natural monopolies which allow capital accumulation and that is just the nature of good competition.   Unnatural monopolies are the ones that are dangerous (such as those granted to patent / copyright holders) or via regulation.  Anti-trust laws are also a major problem.

In what way would "natural" monopolies differ from "unnatural" one's in the real world?

The use of FORCE.... to prevent competition it is in the definition. 

An unnatural monopoly can remain in power despite better, more innovative, efficient, alternatives.   It doesn't matter *how much you innovate* you cannot overcome an unnatural monopoly. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 06:02:06 PM »

In what way would "natural" monopolies differ from "unnatural" one's in the real world?

Think of it as organic growth vs. bullying. If Starbucks sold the best coffee and had the best business model, then imagine that it could organically grow itself into a dominant (say 80%?) market share position amongst coffee shops. But by the same token, if Starbucks were selling coffee below cost so it could drive some local competitors out of business (knowing that it could afford the hit, but they couldn't), that would be an illegal use of market power. Another example was when Microsoft bundled its music player with Windows, squeezing RealAudio's chances of selling very many of its players. That sort of behavior undermines the free market.

Antitrust laws largely exist to protect the free market and prevent someone from abusing it. Bullying actions ultimately hurt the consumer, who has to pay higher prices and gets fewer choices.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 07:08:30 PM »
Quote
that would be an illegal use of market power.

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 07:22:11 PM »

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.

Maybe in some universe (the gates of heaven?), morality is the bottom line. Without antitrust laws, I don't think the majority of market actors will make decisions based on morality. What we'll get, instead, is an economy ruled by crime syndicates. In the absence of government power, we simply get private actors who (ab)use their strength to control others. Russian mafia? Mexican drug lords? They use 10x the force, since there's no government to keep them in check (or they own that government). I'd rather have a flawed democratic government with half-assed regulations that are enforced to protect the free market and the consumer.

I wish that using force were not part of human nature, but for many people it seems to be par for the course.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:24:42 PM by donkeypong »

Offline bytemaster

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 07:37:58 PM »

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.

Maybe in some universe (the gates of heaven?), morality is the bottom line. Without antitrust laws, I don't think the majority of market actors will make decisions based on morality. What we'll get, instead, is an economy ruled by crime syndicates. In the absence of government power, we simply get private actors who (ab)use their strength to control others. Russian mafia? Mexican drug lords? They use 10x the force, since there's no government to keep them in check (or they own that government). I'd rather have a flawed democratic government with half-assed regulations that are enforced to protect the free market and the consumer.

I wish that using force were not part of human nature, but for many people it seems to be par for the course.

You are right... governments are the realization of an economy ruled by crime syndicates and we are living in a "free market" that hasn't found a product or service that is able to protect us from these crime syndicates. 

You speak as if governments do not violate the very laws they impose on everyone else...
1) they steal
2) they kill
3) they lie, cheat, and defraud
4) they unilaterally break contracts
5) they threaten at gun point
6) they form monopolies on justice, law, etc..
7) there is no "government" to keep the government in check....

Bottom line... free markets will have to defend us against governments not the other way around.
 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline G1ng3rBr34dM4n

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 08:23:43 PM »

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.

Maybe in some universe (the gates of heaven?), morality is the bottom line. Without antitrust laws, I don't think the majority of market actors will make decisions based on morality. What we'll get, instead, is an economy ruled by crime syndicates. In the absence of government power, we simply get private actors who (ab)use their strength to control others. Russian mafia? Mexican drug lords? They use 10x the force, since there's no government to keep them in check (or they own that government). I'd rather have a flawed democratic government with half-assed regulations that are enforced to protect the free market and the consumer.

I wish that using force were not part of human nature, but for many people it seems to be par for the course.

You are right... governments are the realization of an economy ruled by crime syndicates and we are living in a "free market" that hasn't found a product or service that is able to protect us from these crime syndicates. 

You speak as if governments do not violate the very laws they impose on everyone else...
1) they steal
2) they kill
3) they lie, cheat, and defraud
4) they unilaterally break contracts
5) they threaten at gun point
6) they form monopolies on justice, law, etc..
7) there is no "government" to keep the government in check....

Bottom line... free markets will have to defend us against governments not the other way around.

 +5% +5% +5%

Offline aloha

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Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 10:08:27 PM »

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.

Maybe in some universe (the gates of heaven?), morality is the bottom line. Without antitrust laws, I don't think the majority of market actors will make decisions based on morality. What we'll get, instead, is an economy ruled by crime syndicates. In the absence of government power, we simply get private actors who (ab)use their strength to control others. Russian mafia? Mexican drug lords? They use 10x the force, since there's no government to keep them in check (or they own that government). I'd rather have a flawed democratic government with half-assed regulations that are enforced to protect the free market and the consumer.

I wish that using force were not part of human nature, but for many people it seems to be par for the course.

You are right... governments are the realization of an economy ruled by crime syndicates and we are living in a "free market" that hasn't found a product or service that is able to protect us from these crime syndicates. 

You speak as if governments do not violate the very laws they impose on everyone else...
1) they steal
2) they kill
3) they lie, cheat, and defraud
4) they unilaterally break contracts
5) they threaten at gun point
6) they form monopolies on justice, law, etc..
7) there is no "government" to keep the government in check....

Bottom line... free markets will have to defend us against governments not the other way around.

 +5% +5% +5%
Thank you bytemaster and thank you G1ng3rBr34dM4n
 

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 11:05:53 PM »

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.

Maybe in some universe (the gates of heaven?), morality is the bottom line. Without antitrust laws, I don't think the majority of market actors will make decisions based on morality. What we'll get, instead, is an economy ruled by crime syndicates. In the absence of government power, we simply get private actors who (ab)use their strength to control others. Russian mafia? Mexican drug lords? They use 10x the force, since there's no government to keep them in check (or they own that government). I'd rather have a flawed democratic government with half-assed regulations that are enforced to protect the free market and the consumer.

I wish that using force were not part of human nature, but for many people it seems to be par for the course.

You are right... governments are the realization of an economy ruled by crime syndicates and we are living in a "free market" that hasn't found a product or service that is able to protect us from these crime syndicates. 

You speak as if governments do not violate the very laws they impose on everyone else...
1) they steal
2) they kill
3) they lie, cheat, and defraud
4) they unilaterally break contracts
5) they threaten at gun point
6) they form monopolies on justice, law, etc..
7) there is no "government" to keep the government in check....

Bottom line... free markets will have to defend us against governments not the other way around.

That's all true. I don't disagree with you that governments are very, very imperfect, guilty of all those sins and more. And elections are rigged and politicians are crooked. Yet I'd rather have our flawed system than something resembling Mad Max.

Does it deserve a kick in the pants? Yes. Can we totally reform our system of regulation and make it work a lot better? Yes. But I came to BitShares more because of how it can shake up the private sector (banks, etc.) than the public sector. Yes, I'm proof positive that BitShares is not just for libertarians; it's for everyone.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 11:28:45 PM by donkeypong »

Offline luckybit

Re: Zero To One, by Peter Thiel
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 06:52:52 PM »

Illegal, but not immoral.  Using force to prevent them from selling at a loss would be immoral but apparently totally legal.

Maybe in some universe (the gates of heaven?), morality is the bottom line. Without antitrust laws, I don't think the majority of market actors will make decisions based on morality. What we'll get, instead, is an economy ruled by crime syndicates. In the absence of government power, we simply get private actors who (ab)use their strength to control others. Russian mafia? Mexican drug lords? They use 10x the force, since there's no government to keep them in check (or they own that government). I'd rather have a flawed democratic government with half-assed regulations that are enforced to protect the free market and the consumer.

I wish that using force were not part of human nature, but for many people it seems to be par for the course.

This is the main reason we need governments. If we don't accept democratic governments we typically end up with other forms of government which are worse and laws which are kept entirely secret or perhaps just based on the whims of those in charge of the force.
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