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Offline troy61

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canceled orders - fee gone
« on: September 22, 2014, 03:36:39 PM »

Is this true, the fee is gone if I cancel my order?

Offline bytemaster

Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 04:57:47 PM »
Is this true, the fee is gone if I cancel my order?

No... there is always a required fee.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline theoretical

Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 05:52:05 PM »
Is this true, the fee is gone if I cancel my order?

No... there is always a required fee.

My understanding is that fees are non-refundable.  But I would have answered the question "yes".

The wording of the question is itself ambiguous -- does "the fee is gone" mean "the fee is cancelled (and returned to the order's originator)", or "the fee is permanently out of reach (even if the order is cancelled)"?
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline bytemaster

Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 05:54:33 PM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline troy61

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 07:41:33 PM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.

This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.

Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.


Offline tonyk

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 07:49:31 PM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.

This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.

Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
Shoot me an email when you find the centralized exchanges with $0.003 fees... for now  I will not even seek discount for the risks of using centralized exchange...
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline serejandmyself

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 07:51:37 PM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.

This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.

Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.

the fee is there in place. Right now its 0.003 cents USD - is that so high?
The fee should be there to prevent people from making not thought out orders in the first place. Its liek a chess game - if oyu touch the piece you go with it.
Dont see any problems with it.
btsx - bitsharesrussia

Offline bytemaster

Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 08:04:25 PM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.

This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.

Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.

You can "update an order" with a single transaction (technically) and pay a single fee... but every order on the blockchain burdens everyone so these are not "free" and everyone is playing the same fees / risks.  If we had no fees then obviously someone could flood the network at no cost.

An arbitrage bot at normal exchanges charge you a percent of your volume... compared to a flat rate regardless of volume and depending only upon update frequency.   The whole market moves slower... so assuming you were to update your orders every single block you would pay a total of $400 per day in fees.    If you have a spread of 1% and work it with $40,000 in volume you would be break even.   

The good news is that you rarely have to update your orders every 10 seconds.   If you do it once per minute then your costs are $65 per day.  If you are a large trader with $100,000 in volume then you will be paying $250 per day on BitStamp vs $65 per day on BTSX.     

If you drop down to lower volumes then the big exchanges charge higher fees.     

So I think the fee schedule for BTSX is better for "low frequency traders"... given the fee schedule on BitStamp there is a minimum spread of 0.5% for small orders.

Given a choice between paying .5% or paying $0.05 per order, I think BTSX is far cheaper for all orders greater than $10.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline oldman

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.

This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.

Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.

You can "update an order" with a single transaction (technically) and pay a single fee... but every order on the blockchain burdens everyone so these are not "free" and everyone is playing the same fees / risks.  If we had no fees then obviously someone could flood the network at no cost.

An arbitrage bot at normal exchanges charge you a percent of your volume... compared to a flat rate regardless of volume and depending only upon update frequency.   The whole market moves slower... so assuming you were to update your orders every single block you would pay a total of $400 per day in fees.    If you have a spread of 1% and work it with $40,000 in volume you would be break even.   

The good news is that you rarely have to update your orders every 10 seconds.   If you do it once per minute then your costs are $65 per day.  If you are a large trader with $100,000 in volume then you will be paying $250 per day on BitStamp vs $65 per day on BTSX.    

If you drop down to lower volumes then the big exchanges charge higher fees.     

So I think the fee schedule for BTSX is better for "low frequency traders"... given the fee schedule on BitStamp there is a minimum spread of 0.5% for small orders.

Given a choice between paying .5% or paying $0.05 per order, I think BTSX is far cheaper for all orders greater than $10.

This sort of info is marketing gold.

Really hope that when the time is right Brian & Co. capture these tidbits!

Offline theoretical

Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 09:38:07 PM »
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.

If we changed the code to make placing and cancelling orders free, what would stop malicious hackers from spamming transactions and wasting everyone's resources?
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline troy61

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 04:29:40 AM »
To be accurate:  placing an order costs a fee, canceling an order costs a SECOND fee.

This is even worse than I feared. First of all I placed a small order to test, which I cannot cancel anymore because the fee is larger than the trade amount.

Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.
Shoot me an email when you find the centralized exchanges with $0.003 fees... for now  I will not even seek discount for the risks of using centralized exchange...

I shoot you one right now: cancelling and placing orders is free on all exchanges.

This is what I am talking about: Placing and cancelling orders. I do not mind paying fees for trades.  I understand that it is necessary to prevent abuse of the system, and I do not have a better solution right now.

Offline troy61

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 04:37:23 AM »
Second, if there is a fee for cancelling orders and placing new ones at a a different price for example, that makes the whole decentralized exchange idea uninteresting to me. How do you expect someone to start an arbitrage bot and to support the market peg, if cancelling or changing orders costs money. I for myself go back to traditional exchanges.

If we changed the code to make placing and cancelling orders free, what would stop malicious hackers from spamming transactions and wasting everyone's resources?

Sure, this is the problem. I am aware of it. POW could be a solution, if it costs resources to submit orders then it is difficult for the bad boys to abuse the system. Similar to sending a message in bitmessage.

But one can argue that is effectively the same as paying money.
 

Offline troy61

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 05:02:55 AM »

You can "update an order" with a single transaction (technically) and pay a single fee... but every order on the blockchain burdens everyone so these are not "free" and everyone is playing the same fees / risks.  If we had no fees then obviously someone could flood the network at no cost.

An arbitrage bot at normal exchanges charge you a percent of your volume... compared to a flat rate regardless of volume and depending only upon update frequency.   The whole market moves slower... so assuming you were to update your orders every single block you would pay a total of $400 per day in fees.    If you have a spread of 1% and work it with $40,000 in volume you would be break even.   

The good news is that you rarely have to update your orders every 10 seconds.   If you do it once per minute then your costs are $65 per day.  If you are a large trader with $100,000 in volume then you will be paying $250 per day on BitStamp vs $65 per day on BTSX.     

If you drop down to lower volumes then the big exchanges charge higher fees.     

So I think the fee schedule for BTSX is better for "low frequency traders"... given the fee schedule on BitStamp there is a minimum spread of 0.5% for small orders.

Given a choice between paying .5% or paying $0.05 per order, I think BTSX is far cheaper for all orders greater than $10.

Thanks for these explanations. So you see only at quite large volumes, this becomes cheaper than centralized exchanges. And most of them have 0.2 % not 0.5 %.

So let's break it down: if the cancel/fill ratio is 1:1, BTSX is cheaper clearly.
If the cancel/fill ratio is 10:1 (I update 10 times my order before I get a fill), we have $0.03  per fill, and for a ratio of 100 0.3$ dollar and so on. Of course no-one would update every block I agree with this. But for example every 5 minutes is not insane, we would then have 288*0.003 = roughly $1 per day, just for submitting orders. So for a poor guy like me working with $100 capital to have some fun on the blockchain it is too expensive, given that my bot does not make 1% per day. 

So you see: this prevents guys like me to start small and experiment with some trading algo. I understand you need to prevent abuse, but one must also facilitate use. I wrote in the other post: a simple POW system, like bitmessage is using, would be a possibility. Only for submitting orders, nothing else, so that the client stays light.


Offline bytemaster

Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 08:23:55 AM »
I am sorry, but use for use sake is pointless and counterproductive by consuming more than you produce.  Someone with as little capital as you have is not entitled to be subsidized by everyone who must store and scan every one of your transactions.

You need to make money playing a wider spread or trading manually on news.

How much value does your $100 order add to the market/peg.   How much does it cost the network.   I would argue the fees are doing their job perfectly. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline troy61

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Re: canceled orders - fee gone
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 11:31:38 AM »
I am sorry, but use for use sake is pointless and counterproductive by consuming more than you produce.  Someone with as little capital as you have is not entitled to be subsidized by everyone who must store and scan every one of your transactions.

You need to make money playing a wider spread or trading manually on news.

How much value does your $100 order add to the market/peg.   How much does it cost the network.   I would argue the fees are doing their job perfectly.

Oh my goodness, I am not worthy!

$100 is just a figure of speech for countless passionate geeks who can contribute to some serious volume and make this thing going somewhere.

I am arguing that fees for submitting/cancelling orders will prevent this cool project from growing. I will be happy to be proven wrong.

 

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